Demons.

[Hunter93]

I've been struggling whether demons actually exist or not recently.

 

I mean, other than maybe a few times, I can't seem to recall demons mentioned in the Old Testament as many times as the New testament. So what are your thoughts about demons?

[Brother Jeff]

Like all other alleged supernatural entities, demons do not actually exist.

[Galien]

Of course they dont, when was the last time you saw one doing their weekly shop? This shit is just used to control people through fear.

[directionless]

I noticed that too - that angels and demons seem to have been introduced between the OT and NT. There is a little bit in Daniel and Tobit, but I can't think of much else.

 

But of course they don't exist. People with schizophrenia often hear mean voices, so demons were invented as an explanation. Now we can give these people medication and the problem goes away. So it's bogus.

[RaLeah]

I don't believe in angels, demons, spirits, or ghosts. (Or fairies, mermaids, unicorns, or dragons.) The devil and his angels are mentioned in the Bible, but since we've discredited the Bible quite thoroughly, there's zero proof for demons. In the NT, Jesus casts demons out of a man and into a herd of pigs that jumps over a cliff to their death. I've wondered if there was some sort of swine flu or disease like mad cow that made its way into mythology this way. Mental illness also was not well understood (huge understatement!) back in the days the Bible was written. They attributed health afflictions and mental issues to demonic influence because they didn't understand medical science. 

 

Also... isn't it pretty handy to just attribute things to the devil or demons when something bad happens that you can't understand? I mean, if you believed that God was responsible for good things happening, and if bad things happened to someone who didn't do something "sinful" to deserve it, it had to be a bad guy doing it, right? How come my beautiful innocent child falls into seizures and fits? Demons. How come all my cows died? Demons. How come the well water went bad? Demons. They're testing your faith in God. 

 

But no, nobody gets demon possessed or anything like that. People can have multiple personality disorder, paranoia, schizophrenia, etc. but not get oppressed or possessed by demonic forces. Because those things don't exist. The more you understand science, the less you need to come up with a magical / supernatural explanation for stuff.  

[Deva]

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

[mwc]

     From what I can tell there's really only one demon that is real and that is the Demon demon.  The Demon demon is the demon that makes people worry about whether or not demons exist.  They don't.  Except for the Demon demon.  That one is real.

 

          mwc

[chrisstavrous]

Yes I am afraid all these comments are true, there is no invisible evil force at work in the world. Its just poor old us in a hostile world.

[Hunter93]

All these stories of demon possession plus videos disturb me as well. I know, it's circumstantial at best but it scares me.

[miekko]

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

Indeed there are forces - invisible ones even - that can affect us physically. They are called gravity and electromagnetism.

[LifeCycle]

All these stories of demon possession plus videos disturb me as well. I know, it's circumstantial at best but it scares me.

With all due respect... Seeing a person flip the fuck out doesn't prove the existence of invisible creatures.  It may prove that person is batshit crazy for one reason or another, however.

 

Take off the "spiritual goggles" and view the world for what it is.

[Geezer]

I've been struggling whether demons actually exist or not recently.

 

I mean, other than maybe a few times, I can't seem to recall demons mentioned in the Old Testament as many times as the New testament. So what are your thoughts about demons?

 

 

You need new reading material. Seriouisly, you really need to stop reading the bible and apologist..

[Ravenstar]

Don't watch that crap... seriously.

 

Demon comes from the Greek, daemon... which means the imagination, or even the genius of thought that comes from man. It was blended with the pagan ideas that certain natural 'spirits' can help or harm us.. then blended again with the Ahriman from Zoroastrianism...and absorbing Arabic ideas about the djinn, and then also pagan gods (such as Pan) were 'demonized' by christianity to convert the pagans and wipe out rival religions.

 

All literature about demonology comes from the dark ages.. and those people were eating LSD laced bread and taking arsenic and mercury for medicine on a regular basis. They were NOT the most ummm.. stable, of people.

 

The rest is misinterpretation and fear about the mentally ill.. and disease.. and a lack of control over natural forces, and the fact that most people PROJECT the worst of their urges and not so good side outwards.. it's a psychological defense mechanism...

 

Garbage in, garbage out.... start filling yourself with POSITIVE things.

[Deva]

 

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

Indeed there are forces - invisible ones even - that can affect us physically. They are called gravity and electromagnetism.

 

You know that wasn't what I meant. I am talking about unknown entities.

[Deva]

Don't watch that crap... seriously.

 

Demon comes from the Greek, daemon... which means the imagination, or even the genius of thought that comes from man. It was blended with the pagan ideas that certain natural 'spirits' can help or harm us.. then blended again with the Ahriman from Zoroastrianism...and absorbing Arabic ideas about the djinn, and then also pagan gods (such as Pan) were 'demonized' by christianity to convert the pagans and wipe out rival religions.

 

All literature about demonology comes from the dark ages.. and those people were eating LSD laced bread and taking arsenic and mercury for medicine on a regular basis. They were NOT the most ummm.. stable, of people.

 

The rest is misinterpretation and fear about the mentally ill.. and disease.. and a lack of control over natural forces, and the fact that most people PROJECT the worst of their urges and not so good side outwards.. it's a psychological defense mechanism...

 

Garbage in, garbage out.... start filling yourself with POSITIVE things.

 

Good advice.  Its really not a good idea to focus on this stuff.

[florduh]

People can do all kinds of crazy things and see, hear and experience the bizarre due to trauma, drugs, disease, etc. Demons and gods are external scapegoats and false explanations for our bad behaviors and still unfamiliar, to some, brain physiology.

[gall]

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

 

You don't want to debate it yet you claim something here that you most assuradly cannot prove in science at this moment in history.

 

I am not saying your wrong. Just that if you have some unique experience that leads you to believe this then maybe you should share it with us. I know that I would like to hear it if you feel something that helps explain things that the religious believe simply because they are to weak or stupid to accept logic and call it magic instead.

 

I am of the school that says all things are quantifiable in this universe. Maybe I cannot quanitfy it but it is possible or it cannot exist period. Our brains are made of chemical factories. I would not doubt there are things out there that can act on them that we do not see hear touch taste or smell. Thankfully none of them are magic or god(s).

 

It is a big universe and there is probably something out there a lot more powerful than we are, I wonder if one day we will use them or they us to accomplish some goal. Who can say for sure until it is known. One thing I can say for sure is I will ask people for proof or explanation when they post like this on the internet.

 

No need to debate just tell us what you actually think.

[RipVanWinkle]

"All these stories of demon possession plus videos disturb me as well. I know, it's circumstantial at best but it scares me."

 

Evidence for demons is not circumstantial; it's mere speculation or myth. Take your pick. There is no evidence, circumstantial 

or otherwise.  bill

[Deva]

 

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

 

<omit >

No need to debate just tell us what you actually think.

 

 

I did.  I said "I do think there are forces or energies out there, etc.."

 

Oh, and I will address this: "...you most assuradly (spelling?) cannot prove in science at this moment in history."  I am nothing more than a layman, not a scientist.  If there were a requirement that everything posted in these forums could be proved by present day science and backed by a published peer reviewed paper, a lot of folks posting on this site would be in trouble. Fortunately, it is not.

 

Your confrontational tone comes off as rude and arrogant from where I sit.

[seeker001]

I agree with Deva and BO, there are some things that are beyond the current realm of science. There is also no denying that people are quick to jump to the easy supernatural explanation instead of finding a logical explanation.

[miekko]

 

 

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

 

You don't want to debate it yet you claim something here that you most assuradly cannot prove in science at this moment in history.

 

I am not saying your wrong. Just that if you have some unique experience that leads you to believe this then maybe you should share it with us. I know that I would like to hear it if you feel something that helps explain things that the religious believe simply because they are to weak or stupid to accept logic and call it magic instead.

 

I am of the school that says all things are quantifiable in this universe. Maybe I cannot quanitfy it but it is possible or it cannot exist period. Our brains are made of chemical factories. I would not doubt there are things out there that can act on them that we do not see hear touch taste or smell. Thankfully none of them are magic or god(s).

 

It is a big universe and there is probably something out there a lot more powerful than we are, I wonder if one day we will use them or they us to accomplish some goal. Who can say for sure until it is known. One thing I can say for sure is I will ask people for proof or explanation when they post like this on the internet.

 

No need to debate just tell us what you actually think.

 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but you would have been looked at as crazy at the time of Galileo, if you said the earth as round or a sphere.  Yet, it is.  The use of the words 'Demons' or 'Forces' may be words that simply describe something that we, as of yet, do not understand how to observe and manipulate.  Science, logic, and empirical data are only good with the known universe and solving problems.  There is FAR more  we don't know about the universe than what we do know.  

 

Maybe in the countryside, but pretty much everyone with an education from the time of the ancient greeks knew the world was spherical, even in the darkest parts of medieval decay.

 

The reason people objected to Columbus' plans of sailing west and reaching India was that Columbus had used a wildly inaccurate estimate o the circumference of the world. Had he not run into an unknown continent, the crew would have depleted the food they brought long before reaching India. 

 

One thing science has gotten damn good at in recent centuries is figuring out what it does not know and honing in on it so it can find those things out. Ghosts and demons, if they exist, would have to leave some kind of trace, and we can be pretty sure by now that they would've been traced if they existed.

[skepticalme]

 

 

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

 

You don't want to debate it yet you claim something here that you most assuradly cannot prove in science at this moment in history.

 

I am not saying your wrong. Just that if you have some unique experience that leads you to believe this then maybe you should share it with us. I know that I would like to hear it if you feel something that helps explain things that the religious believe simply because they are to weak or stupid to accept logic and call it magic instead.

 

I am of the school that says all things are quantifiable in this universe. Maybe I cannot quanitfy it but it is possible or it cannot exist period. Our brains are made of chemical factories. I would not doubt there are things out there that can act on them that we do not see hear touch taste or smell. Thankfully none of them are magic or god(s).

 

It is a big universe and there is probably something out there a lot more powerful than we are, I wonder if one day we will use them or they us to accomplish some goal. Who can say for sure until it is known. One thing I can say for sure is I will ask people for proof or explanation when they post like this on the internet.

 

No need to debate just tell us what you actually think.

 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but you would have been looked at as crazy at the time of Galileo, if you said the earth as round or a sphere.  Yet, it is.  The use of the words 'Demons' or 'Forces' may be words that simply describe something that we, as of yet, do not understand how to observe and manipulate.  Science, logic, and empirical data are only good with the known universe and solving problems.  There is FAR more  we don't know about the universe than what we do know.  

 

Yes, but science is the act of pushing those boundaries of what we know and expanding our sphere of knowledge.  It unnerves me to no end when people characterize science as rigid and dogmatic; while the reality is that it is the most progressive intellectual venture that humans partake in.  The dominant theory in physics right now is that over 90% of the universe, we don't know what it is.  It's something; but we can't see, touch, taste or smell, no sensor we have built can detect it.  It passes through regular matter like ghost leaving no trace.  Yet we know it exist because we can measure it's gavitational influence.  As undetectable as it is, we can still weight it.  The cutting edge of science right now is studying something very much like a ghost.  Now that we have detected the Higgs Boson, Dark Matter is the next frontier.  Forget Galileo, a hundred years ago, what we are doing now would look crazy.  Yes there is vastly more that we don't know, but that is kind of the point; endeavouring to know it. 

[skepticalme]

 

 

 

I do think there are forces or energies out there that can play upon a person's mind and maybe affect someone physically. I don't know if I would call them demons though. In the universe there is still the undiscovered and unknown.

 

I am not going to debate this, it just comes from my experience of life.

 

You don't want to debate it yet you claim something here that you most assuradly cannot prove in science at this moment in history.

 

I am not saying your wrong. Just that if you have some unique experience that leads you to believe this then maybe you should share it with us. I know that I would like to hear it if you feel something that helps explain things that the religious believe simply because they are to weak or stupid to accept logic and call it magic instead.

 

I am of the school that says all things are quantifiable in this universe. Maybe I cannot quanitfy it but it is possible or it cannot exist period. Our brains are made of chemical factories. I would not doubt there are things out there that can act on them that we do not see hear touch taste or smell. Thankfully none of them are magic or god(s).

 

It is a big universe and there is probably something out there a lot more powerful than we are, I wonder if one day we will use them or they us to accomplish some goal. Who can say for sure until it is known. One thing I can say for sure is I will ask people for proof or explanation when they post like this on the internet.

 

No need to debate just tell us what you actually think.

 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but you would have been looked at as crazy at the time of Galileo, if you said the earth as round or a sphere.  Yet, it is.  The use of the words 'Demons' or 'Forces' may be words that simply describe something that we, as of yet, do not understand how to observe and manipulate.  Science, logic, and empirical data are only good with the known universe and solving problems.  There is FAR more  we don't know about the universe than what we do know.  

 

Maybe in the countryside, but pretty much everyone with an education from the time of the ancient greeks knew the world was spherical, even in the darkest parts of medieval decay.

 

The reason people objected to Columbus' plans of sailing west and reaching India was that Columbus had used a wildly inaccurate estimate o the circumference of the world. Had he not run into an unknown continent, the crew would have depleted the food they brought long before reaching India. 

 

One thing science has gotten damn good at in recent centuries is figuring out what it does not know and honing in on it so it can find those things out. Ghosts and demons, if they exist, would have to leave some kind of trace, and we can be pretty sure by now that they would've been traced if they existed.

 

Oh, Eratosthenes discovered the world was spherical and calculated it's dimensions in the 3rd century BC.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cbIWMv0rI

[mymistake]

Ya'll are missing the point. Just because something is unknown by mainstream science does not mean it does not exist. It is merely unknown now. To say with absolute certainty that something does not exist is short sighted and worse, arrogant. All that can be said is that it has not been observed in a controlled situation.

 

That being said, I am not advocating assigning more to some phenomena than can be worthy of it.

 

 

The concept "beyond a reasonable doubt" is very useful here.  You are not going to get absolute certainty in any real world application.  But scientists can calculate their uncertainty.  And when we cannot come up with any reasonable objection to the idea that demons are fictional then we can say that we have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Let's take a real world example.  Up until recently the giant squid was in the same class as the Lock Ness Monster and Big Foot.  Scientist simply had no reason to believe the giant squid existed apart from the tales and rumors of a few sailors who also believed in things like mermaids.  Were scientists wrong when they dismissed thoughts of a giant squid?  Factually they were incorrect.  But they didn't lose anything by it.  They had no good reason to believe in said squid.  But this wasn't religious dogma.  As soon as some solid evidence became available scientists were willing to investigate.  As soon as enough evidence came in the idea was accepted as verified.  If evidence of demons were to turn up the same way then science would follow the evidence.

[seeker001]

 

 

Ya'll are missing the point. Just because something is unknown by mainstream science does not mean it does not exist. It is merely unknown now. To say with absolute certainty that something does not exist is short sighted and worse, arrogant. All that can be said is that it has not been observed in a controlled situation.

 

That being said, I am not advocating assigning more to some phenomena than can be worthy of it.

 

The concept "beyond a reasonable doubt" is very useful here. You are not going to get absolute certainty in any real world application. But scientists can calculate their uncertainty. And when we cannot come up with any reasonable objection to the idea that demons are fictional then we can say that we have proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Let's take a real world example. Up until recently the giant squid was in the same class as the Lock Ness Monster and Big Foot. Scientist simply had no reason to believe the giant squid existed apart from the tales and rumors of a few sailors who also believed in things like mermaids. Were scientists wrong when they dismissed thoughts of a giant squid? Factually they were incorrect. But they didn't lose anything by it. They had no good reason to believe in said squid. But this wasn't religious dogma. As soon as some solid evidence became available scientists were willing to investigate. As soon as enough evidence came in the idea was accepted as verified. If evidence of demons were to turn up the same way then science would follow the evidence.

That is based on KNOWN facts, and those can change over time. I have had conversations with physicists who have been bouncing around the theory that what some see as 'ghosts' or 'spirits' may not be baloney, but perhaps something akin to a photograph, except on light sensitive substances like photographic paper, but rather, an element of time space, the fabric of the universe. OR...the point at which we are seeing another physical dimension we are as of yet unable to measure.

 

While that may be so, but the important thing to do is to rule out all mudane explanations first before confirming a new discovery.  The human mind can be screwed with and our perceptions are not always reliable when it comes to perceiving reality. http://zidbits.com/2010/11/a-scientific-explanation-for-ghosts/

 

Just because there are things that are unknown does not mean we should be jumping to extraordinary conclusions .  The unknown means it is something not known to one's perceptions, it doesn't automatically mean it is supernatural.

 

I am open to the idea that supernatural entities may exist, but all other possibilities need to be squashed first.