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Thanks & Another Theological Question


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Hi Folks,

 

I want to thank you for all the arguments you have given me,  They have really helped alleviate my fears and I hope they also act as encouragement to others.

 

You people here are more true to me than many I have met while in Church Circles.  I myself have a mental disability and the problem here is I am not generally liked by people.  So when I went to church people showed an interest but then that died off.  Eventually you stop getting invited to parties and events.

 

At that point you feel the hate of other Christians very strongly.  I kept strong to God though through these times but its also the reason I have went astray.

 

Oddly enough Jesus put out a warning to people who lead Christians astray lol so we could argue that these Christians were in a club so they will all goto hell.

 

So thank you folks here.

 

 

Now I know I always trigger a debate here with my questions but here is an interesting one.

 

In Revelation there are these things called 'Thunders',  They tell John of Patamos something but tell him never to write it down or tell anyone.  John followed suit.  Does anyone have any speculation as to what they could have said?  Why would he be told not to tell anyone why tell him in the first place??

 

 

 

 

 

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In numerology, which apocalyptic literature is steeped in, 7 symbolizes our struggle, as humans, to know and understand hidden truths.  These 7 thunders match the seven descriptions of the thunderous voice of God in Psalm 29.  It may have been alluding to the mystery and hiddenness of God rather than pointing toward a specific revelation.

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Considering Revelations is basically a huge, elaborate, extended metaphor for the fall of Rome, from a Judaism splinter-sect point of view, I think the Thunders and what they said are... wait for it... decoration.

 

They're there to add to the atmosphere and give an air of credibility and mystery to the whole thing, stylistically. (Kind of anticlimactic, I know.)

 

The Bible as we know it was collated from a bucketload of other sources and accounts that were circulating over the Centuries. Bits got included because they meant something important to the people who put it together, and excluded because they weren't politically convenient. That's why there's apocrypha, after all. And then, sometimes, there's a massive cache of texts uncovered, that shows just how much the Bible and related accounts have changed, over the years, including stuff left out, or drastically changed. Dead Sea Scrolls. Even translating something changes the meaning. The Dead Sea Scrolls certainly were important, to the people that cached them in that cave: writing was a rare skill, and the materials to make a collection of books were expensive. Let alone the fact that if you have to have councils to decide what you officially believe, there's some... substantial differences. Even today, translation issues aside, the actual contents of the Bible are not the same for every sect of Christianity.

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Life is very short. Don't waste any of it trying to make sense of Revelation.

 

It was a response to witnessing Rome win a war against the author's people.  Roman legions killed, raped and then carted off the survivors to work them to death as slaves.  Watching that suffering being inflicted on all of your friends and loved ones would have driven anybody to hallucinations and insane ranting.

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Does anyone have any speculation as to what they could have said?

 

No, because it didn't actually happen. It's a story, not a history or factual account.

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I'm in line with ExCBooster.  I think the mysterious thunders are a device by which the text announces itself as impenetrable.  Then it's available for leaders in the cult to use to enhance the aura of deep wisdom that they project when they "interpret" it.  I use quotation marks because there's no definite content to be interpreted behind the imagery.  The imagery is there to do the work of creating an atmosphere of mystery.

 

The last time I read Revelation I came away thinking it reads like the production of a writer who was the most-picked-on kid in the first or second century equivalent of eighth grade.

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Ugh. All I can think about with the book of Revelation is how absolutely entranced pastors are with it. They're just obsessed with interpreting it. 

 

I endured more Sunday evening sermons on it than I care to relive right now. I mean, a whole SERIES going through EVERY VERSE of it. 

 

Theologians love that stuff! It's the Da Vinci Code to them. They adore it. They think it holds profound mysteries. 

 

I just remember being bored out of my mind while the pastor got all excited about what it might maybe could mean, sure that HIS interpretation was the correct one. 

 

To me, the whole book reads like a drug trip. Or maybe it was a coded prophesy of Rome's fall. Or whatever. It has NOTHING to do with America, or the end times, or whatever. It's just some guy who was trying to write about how the world would end, and it's NUTS. 

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In numerology, which apocalyptic literature is steeped in, 7 symbolizes our struggle, as humans, to know and understand hidden truths.  These 7 thunders match the seven descriptions of the thunderous voice of God in Psalm 29.  It may have been alluding to the mystery and hiddenness of God rather than pointing toward a specific revelation.

There's more than one "numerology". In most Jewish numerology of antiquity, seven symbolizes perfection and goodness and whatnot. I've never seen anyone claim that 7 symbolizes "our struggle, as humans, to know and understand hidden truths".

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Hi Folks,

 

I want to thank you for all the arguments you have given me,  They have really helped alleviate my fears and I hope they also act as encouragement to others.

 

You people here are more true to me than many I have met while in Church Circles.  I myself have a mental disability and the problem here is I am not generally liked by people.  So when I went to church people showed an interest but then that died off.  Eventually you stop getting invited to parties and events.

 

At that point you feel the hate of other Christians very strongly.  I kept strong to God though through these times but its also the reason I have went astray.

 

Oddly enough Jesus put out a warning to people who lead Christians astray lol so we could argue that these Christians were in a club so they will all goto hell.

 

So thank you folks here.

 

 

Now I know I always trigger a debate here with my questions but here is an interesting one.

 

In Revelation there are these things called 'Thunders',  They tell John of Patamos something but tell him never to write it down or tell anyone.  John followed suit.  Does anyone have any speculation as to what they could have said?  Why would he be told not to tell anyone why tell him in the first place??

 

So you have a mental disorder that people dislike or they actually dislike you? What disorder causes them to dislike you but leaves you coherent enough to post here in a more or less intelligent fashion? Sorry people don't like you for whatever reason I know how it feels but then I am making a voluntary choice to be like I am.

 

No one in their right mind that does not already believe in god would give a crap what revelation says. You are not in a church here and I do not understand why everyone here feeds your neverending debate questions about things that are not real never were and cannot be answered with out the future coming to pass which it will either way OR proof surfacing that there is a god which is so unlikely that there are people like me who are not skeptical that he might be out there and should keep it in mind but see absolutly no proof of any of it that cannot be destroyed with logical rhetorical argument. Prove it with science modern science, physics, geology, biology, or any other science that is actually taught in a school not related to a church.

 

Are you actually deconverting or just here to debate? If it is just debate why are you not honest about it?

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In numerology, which apocalyptic literature is steeped in, 7 symbolizes our struggle, as humans, to know and understand hidden truths.  These 7 thunders match the seven descriptions of the thunderous voice of God in Psalm 29.  It may have been alluding to the mystery and hiddenness of God rather than pointing toward a specific revelation.

There's more than one "numerology". In most Jewish numerology of antiquity, seven symbolizes perfection and goodness and whatnot. I've never seen anyone claim that 7 symbolizes "our struggle, as humans, to know and understand hidden truths".

 

I have heard of the number 7 symbolizing completion or perfection and as a combination of the number of God (3) and the number of universality (4 (North, South, East, West)).  I guess the astrological definition interested me more at the moment of my response, and I think I've read that explanation before in reference to Psalm 29.  Wendyshrug.gif

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Hey Folks,

 

The reason people do not like me is because my primary friendship circle was Christians and when I had an opinion or strong belief they didn't like it so they disassociated with me.  Then started spreading rumors and then it got to the point other Christians didn't want to be around me because they were worried they would get judged.

 

I have ADHD which my sub-type means that I don't think before I speak and if I do think before I speak then people think I am weird as there is a delayed response cycle.  I also have hearing problems with means I talk louder.  These two conditions are hard for people.

 

Generally with ADHD I have a difficulty reading social situations e.g. What is Appropriate and what Is-In Appropriate which puts me at differences with people which deem one thing appropriate when I find its in-appropriate and vice versa.

 

I have been called difficult and its hard to remain strong and true with this - My mind set is to embrace it,  People who put up with it I stay really loyal to them - people who bad mouth me I turn against them.  I have learned to speak my mind and that's one thing people are assured.  That if they ask me a question they get the truth and not some convoluted lie.

 

Heres an Example:

 

My Uncle died a non-Christian many people said hes in a better place.  It took all my urge and energy not to spring off the tougue 'Not according to the bible'.  Its stuff like that and am left on my own.

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I have ADHD which my sub-type means that I don't think before I speak

 

You appear to be a lot like my nephew. Unfortunately, honesty and transparency are a handicap in many circumstances. I can relate to your frustration.

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I tell you I am 25 and I am a software engineer earning a considerable income but even with my good job / good girlfriend and good house it doesent make up for the reality that you know 99% of everyone hates you.  And the way ADHD works is that I don't know what I say wrong its not like I am intentionally doing it - I think hey someone might find this joke funny and it suddenly has people in horror?

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Generally speaking, people don't want the truth; they want to hear what they already believe the truth to be. If they don't hear it from you, they won't like you. 

 

This is doubly true in church. I learned that the hard way. In a fundamentalist church, they want to hear the one true answer. In a less extreme church, they don't want to hear anything in particular. They want the service or class to end so they go home. It's really tricky to honestly  discuss real issues in any church I've ever been to. So, I also can relate to your problem. bill

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