Collective Conscious

[Storm]

I've been thinking about various times where people have feelings about a perceived need someone else might have. I am sure you have all heard stories about someone having a "god moment" and they are "told" to go do something or are compelled (i.e. give money, buy something, do something, etc.) for someone else even though the recipient never told anyone or very few people. I have to admit that this intrigues me. I am not necessarily buying into this as "god inspired" so much as I think maybe there is a collective consciousness among humans. Maybe not Borg like, but maybe there is something there in us humans that senses needs of others. Does anyone have thoughts on this or know of research that may validate it? Just fodder for discussion in an otherwise slow forum these days.

[gall]

I've been thinking about various times where people have feelings about a perceived need someone else might have. I am sure you have all heard stories about someone having a "god moment" and they are "told" to go do something or are compelled (i.e. give money, buy something, do something, etc.) for someone else even though the recipient never told anyone or very few people. I have to admit that this intrigues me. I am not necessarily buying into this as "god inspired" so much as I think maybe there is a collective consciousness among humans. Maybe not Borg like, but maybe there is something there in us humans that senses needs of others. Does anyone have thoughts on this or know of research that may validate it? Just fodder for discussion in an otherwise slow forum these days.

 

We do not live in a collective at that level. If we did many of the things that happen would not. Simply because perspective would be different than it currently can be. It is one thing to see how another person feels but far different to actually feel it through them.

 

We can sense things but only the things that are external. Energy or frequency might be a good way to look at it. All things in the universe are in motion always. Ever cell you are made from down to the sub atomic particles we cannot see. A meter detects that which is present based on its criteria we in many ways are a meter to emotion pouring off of others in the form of frequency. We detect that and then act on it based on preset rules we have for ourselves.

For instance I am very acute to negative emotion. I sense it easily on people even good at hiding it. it is almost like I can smell it on them. I am not reading their mind or being part of their collective, I am sensing that which is already present externally to their insides. I have a harder time feeling positive emotion from people even when I know logically that it is present. I was born like this and it can affect how I feel if I don't keep a mental barrier up while in the presence of extreme negative emotion. It is what it is and I have learned to use it not fear it.

 

I am not special or performing a trick it just is the way my senses work. I have met many people like this which leads me to believe we are all like this. Some might call that a collective I do not. Just because many people play the piano does not mean that we all do so to speak...

 

I am not a flock of geese

[florduh]

Conscious and subconscious clues, and common sense coupled with experience allow us to know more about people/situations than we think. 

 

Professional "psychics" rely on these clues for their readings. How does the "reader" know all these things about you, a stranger, and your life? He/she follows the clues. Are your nails manicured? Is your jewelry/watch cheap or expensive? Is there a wedding ring or a mark where one used to be? What kind of footwear do you have? Are you well groomed or a little unkempt? Do you wear cheap perfume/cologne? Is the odor or the stains of a recent meal evident? How is your dental hygiene? Puffy eyes? Calluses? Tattoos? Scars? Are there any clues to sexual orientation? Children? Did the style or content of your speech give anything away? Were you talking to someone in earshot of the reader? BTW, I know many professional psychics, some of them famous, and I have dabbled in it myself.

 

All of us experience very similar circumstances throughout our lives. It's not that hard to extrapolate the needs someone else may have, some people do it unconsciously.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

It's called empathy. The only ones who don't have empathy, are socio/psychopaths.

[Storm]

While I understand what each of you is saying, I'm not sure I got my question across adequately. I am talking about things a bit above the normal in life. Like, for example, twins feeling each others pain, or this story, which I am sure there is a variation in every circle, where a guy is at the grocery store and he feels compelled to buy an extra jug of milk for no apparent reason and then on his way home, he feels "god" tell him to stop at this particular house that he has never been to and give the jug of milk to the person inside, and then when he does, the person breaks down and tells the story of how they weren't sure that they were going to feed their baby... you can figure out the rest. That particular story may be fabricated, but I hear of this type of stuff on a quasi regular basis (and not on Facebook, fyi). It doesn't necessarily involve face to face context where facial expressions or obvious needs are figured out, but just seem to happen for unknown reasons. Surely you guys have heard of this type of situation happening.

[florduh]

There are many such stories, and also stories (true eyewitness accounts!) of Nessie and alien abductions. There are stories of holy men somewhere in India levitating and somebody being raised from the dead somewhere in the middle of Africa. Anecdotes support an existing belief, but carry no weight as evidence.

 

In real life, there are clues we pick up on, and there is also coincidence. An apparently psychic connection between twins isn't surprising as they share similar or identical experiences and also share the manner in which their brains function.

 

Suppose that one night I experienced terrible stomach pains, and the next day I find that my grandfather has died of appendicitis complications. The most likely scenario is coincidence, but many will take that as a psychic experience because it bolsters their belief. I have felt obliged to give gifts to people I know, and they are surprised and happy. One time, I gave a grocery gift card to someone and they asked how I knew they had lost their job and weren't sure how they would buy food this week. Of course that's a coincidence as I had no idea they lost a job, but that instance would be the only one of dozens that some people would remember because it appears to support their belief in some sort of unconscious connection between people.

 

 

[gall]

Conscious and subconscious clues, and common sense coupled with experience allow us to know more about people/situations than we think. 

 

Professional "psychics" rely on these clues for their readings. How does the "reader" know all these things about you, a stranger, and your life? He/she follows the clues. Are your nails manicured? Is your jewelry/watch cheap or expensive? Is there a wedding ring or a mark where one used to be? What kind of footwear do you have? Are you well groomed or a little unkempt? Do you wear cheap perfume/cologne? Is the odor or the stains of a recent meal evident? How is your dental hygiene? Puffy eyes? Calluses? Tattoos? Scars? Are there any clues to sexual orientation? Children? Did the style or content of your speech give anything away? Were you talking to someone in earshot of the reader? BTW, I know many professional psychics, some of them famous, and I have dabbled in it myself.

 

All of us experience very similar circumstances throughout our lives. It's not that hard to extrapolate the needs someone else may have, some people do it unconsciously.

 

I know I like body language. It is like free info without having to waste time asking.

[gall]

While I understand what each of you is saying, I'm not sure I got my question across adequately. I am talking about things a bit above the normal in life. Like, for example, twins feeling each others pain, or this story, which I am sure there is a variation in every circle, where a guy is at the grocery store and he feels compelled to buy an extra jug of milk for no apparent reason and then on his way home, he feels "god" tell him to stop at this particular house that he has never been to and give the jug of milk to the person inside, and then when he does, the person breaks down and tells the story of how they weren't sure that they were going to feed their baby... you can figure out the rest. That particular story may be fabricated, but I hear of this type of stuff on a quasi regular basis (and not on Facebook, fyi). It doesn't necessarily involve face to face context where facial expressions or obvious needs are figured out, but just seem to happen for unknown reasons. Surely you guys have heard of this type of situation happening.

 

um really??? I don't see these things or types of things happening all over where I am. I hear a lot of fallacious stories about them that have zero basis other than I just have to trust what they are saying is accurate. I don't trust much without proof. Period.

 

I could use an extra jug of milk how can i to invoke milk?

[par4dcourse]

A bird flies in perfect synchronization with hundreds of others, not by group consciousness, but by closely watching and quickly reacting to the three closest neighbors. Termites build huge mounds by watching and imitating. Humans are much the same.

[Storm]

Suppose that one night I experienced terrible stomach pains, and the next day I find that my grandfather has died of appendicitis complications. The most likely scenario is coincidence, but many will take that as a psychic experience because it bolsters their belief.

 

I don't trust much without proof. Period.

So, for arguments sake, lets say that Florduh's example actually happened. What constitutes proof? He did state open mindedly that he would perceive that experience to be total coincidence. But what if it was an actual psychic connection. When does pessimism give way to optimism. If you are always overly pessimistic about seeking proof, when do you afford the option to actually see it? How do you determine proof? Does each persons definition of proof invalidate anothers?

[florduh]

So, for arguments sake, lets say that Florduh's example actually happened. What constitutes proof? He did state open mindedly that he would perceive that experience to be total coincidence. But what if it was an actual psychic connection. 

 

Consistency and repeatability would constitute evidence. Of all the times I experienced a pain or discomfort, only once did it coincide with the pain and death of another person.

 

Some would seize that story as proof of their extraordinary beliefs, but that is not extraordinary evidence by any means. We can't just discard all the other times nothing happened and accept a single coincidence as proof.

 

Many hang onto any "evidence" they can find and maintain that anything is possible; but is everything probable? What is the most likely explanation?

[Storm]

 

So, for arguments sake, lets say that Florduh's example actually happened. What constitutes proof? He did state open mindedly that he would perceive that experience to be total coincidence. But what if it was an actual psychic connection. 

 

Consistency and repeatability would constitute evidence. Of all the times I experienced a pain or discomfort, only once did it coincide with the pain and death of another person.

 

Some would seize that story as proof of their extraordinary beliefs, but that is not extraordinary evidence by any means. We can't just discard all the other times nothing happened and accept a single coincidence as proof.

 

Many hang onto any "evidence" they can find and maintain that anything is possible; but is everything probable? What is the most likely explanation?

 

So what constitutes consistency and repeatability? Lets say there are 6 billion people on earth and this occurrence happens to 1000 people at random. Is this consistent and repeatable? If it happens to less than one percent of the world, does that mean it isn't proof? I am guessing that if most of the people share the story of this example to others, so that when you and I hear about them, they become hearsay. So, how does that invalidate anything? I'm not talking about god, I'm talking about evidence in general about something.

[VacuumFlux]

 

 

So, for arguments sake, lets say that Florduh's example actually happened. What constitutes proof? He did state open mindedly that he would perceive that experience to be total coincidence. But what if it was an actual psychic connection. 

 

Consistency and repeatability would constitute evidence. Of all the times I experienced a pain or discomfort, only once did it coincide with the pain and death of another person.

 

Some would seize that story as proof of their extraordinary beliefs, but that is not extraordinary evidence by any means. We can't just discard all the other times nothing happened and accept a single coincidence as proof.

 

Many hang onto any "evidence" they can find and maintain that anything is possible; but is everything probable? What is the most likely explanation?

 

So what constitutes consistency and repeatability? Lets say there are 6 billion people on earth and this occurrence happens to 1000 people at random. Is this consistent and repeatable? If it happens to less than one percent of the world, does that mean it isn't proof? I am guessing that if most of the people share the story of this example to others, so that when you and I hear about them, they become hearsay. So, how does that invalidate anything? I'm not talking about god, I'm talking about evidence in general about something.

 

 

The big problem with hearsay is that you're getting further away from the original source, and the details may change. Even if you're getting it from the original person, there's the thing where the fish gets bigger with each retelling of the big catch story. I don't even mean that the person's necessarily lying - if they think there may have been something supernatural about the event, they may ignore details that don't fit that narative, and if everyone around them takes it as proof of the supernatural and gets all excited about the story, it becomes easier to think those little details are irrelevant. Human memory is very malleable.

 

What the anecdotes can do for us is to point out avenues of research for performing more controlled, repeatable experiments, where the little detals that suggest some more natural cause aren't ignored, and the observations are done by someone who's not in the middle of the experience. And really, we have gotten a lot of good science that way, but we've also discovered that some of the assumptions we've made about our experiences were inaccurate. There's a huge difference between an interesting possibility and proof.

[florduh]

Anything is technically possible. We could be living in a computer simulation. We could be characters in the dream of some god. We could be a biological experiment carried out by aliens. 

 

Basing one's view of the world on the premise that anything is possible doesn't seem useful to me. What is probable and what is proven seem to be the things we should focus on. Building a philosophy or belief on improbable assumptions and using coincidence and anecdotal stories as proof doesn't work for me, though it does for many. Brains work and process in different ways. The God of Abraham could exist as described in the Bible, but I won't base my life on that possibility simply because it is so damn improbable.

[miekko]

Think of all the times someone "feels" something like this, nothing related to it happens, and he or she forgets about the whole thing. We're 7 billion people on the planet, each thinking thousands of thoughts and doing hundreds of things every single day. When one person's thoughts and another person's thoughts or situation happen to correlate for no obvious reason, we may be surprised about it and take note. But for this to have any significance whatsoever, we should also know the number of failures for this to happen - and I am firmly convinced if we knew it, we'd notice that all the anecdotes - even if they were true - would be explainable by chance.

[midniterider]

Anything is technically possible. We could be living in a computer simulation. We could be characters in the dream of some god. We could be a biological experiment carried out by aliens. 

 

Basing one's view of the world on the premise that anything is possible doesn't seem useful to me. What is probable and what is proven seem to be the things we should focus on. Building a philosophy or belief on improbable assumptions and using coincidence and anecdotal stories as proof doesn't work for me, though it does for many. Brains work and process in different ways. The God of Abraham could exist as described in the Bible, but I won't base my life on that possibility simply because it is so damn improbable.

 

“If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.” Albert Einstein. :-)

[Storm]

I am reminded of the Nicholas Cage movie "the Sorcerer's Apprentice" where the kid is asking questions about magic and Cage's character just basically explains magic as manipulating what is already there. I am certainly not trying to be argumentative in this discussion, but I am genuinely interested in the subject matter.

Evidence is an oft thrown about word. Everyone wants evidence, but I really wonder what it is that we are looking for. It is certainly plausible that biblegod could use everyday things and manipulate the world for his "plan" and we would never see it because of natural phenomena that we would never consider extraordinary. Hence, "miracles" could be occurring everyday and we would blindly look past them because they are natural everyday occurrences. Or we dismiss something because we see that the law of probability can account for things, but that doesn't mean that it didn't occur due to some outside force. It sure seems easy to explain away things that could be evidence, but are possibly things that we don't understand. I am a believer that science cannot disprove a god because there is no reason that a supernatural god could not use the laws set in motion that we understand. Through reason and observation, I can conclude that biblegod is an unlikely being and that christianity is a man made religion. But, I could argue that what we could chalk up to be true simply because of the law of probability, could just as easily be a supernatural being using everyday law of nature things to work things out for his "purpose". I am probably working towards the edge of my reasoning of this subject and I will gladly concede that there are people in this arena that are more aptly capable of discussing such things. But, my desire to look at things objectively pushes me to question it all.

[RaLeah]

Our brains are superstitious. Our brains try to find patterns and meanings where there aren't any. We're more likely to remember and repeat a story that seems to have a special meaning than one that doesn't. 

 

For example, I have insomnia sometimes. I had insomnia the night before Sept. 11, 2001. I called in sick to work that day, even though I wasn't sick, I was just tired because I hadn't been able to sleep at all the night before for some reason. I had only missed about 2 work days that year prior to that date. So it seemed like a meaningful coincidence at first. Then I realized, out of 300 employees at just my office workplace alone, surely at least 10 or so of us would have called in to work on any given day. I just happened to be one of those people. But suppose I did think this meant I had special psychic powers? If I were superstitious, I would repeat this story every time someone brought up their woo-woo experiences, and they'd repeat THEIR coincidental stories as evidence of paranormal freakiness, but they probably wouldn't be things that happened to all of us on the exact same day. That is, coincidences randomly happen to all of us throughout our lives, and we file those away in our memory while forgetting all the days a coincidence didn't happen to us. 

 

Let's try another one that's closer to what you mean. I got a bunch of boxes from work--we were moving offices, and I took a bunch of extra boxes they didn't need home, and I also got some free bookshelves and stuff they were getting rid of. I asked around if anyone needed moving boxes or certain other items, and a woman who was about to move apartments was delighted with the timing, because she needed boxes right then. I helped her pack up and move as well, because she didn't have anyone else local who could help her out. Neither of us are Christians, and I didn't think the timing was special or magic, but if I had believed in miracles and such, I could probably embellish the story a bit to make it seem even more amazing to my own mind, like if she were the first person I asked if she needed boxes (maybe she was -- I can't remember, or maybe I'd heard she was moving, so I brought the boxes up to her for a reason, I can't remember that either.) But regardless, I'm sure I could turn it into an amazing heartwarming story of timing and coincidence when it isn't much of a coincidence at all. (Plus, I have to notice that by giving an anecdote like this, I'm sort of bragging about what an awesome person I am for doing a good deed and what a great witness for Christ it must have been, etc. so I think this is sort of the Christian's version of the humble brag: God used me, I was available and I was willing to do this kind thing for another person.)

 

Lest you think I'm someone who goes around doing good deeds all the time, this particular incident was over a year ago and I have not helped anyone else move since that time. 

[florduh]

But, I could argue that what we could chalk up to be true simply because of the law of probability, could just as easily be a supernatural being...

 

No, it could not "just as easily" be a supernatural being. It's a much longer stretch of credulity.

[Ralet]

Another point is that nobody counts the failures.Nobody tells stories about (or even remembers) the times when they gave money to a stranger/ had pain /had a foreshadowing and nothing happened.

[Ouroboros]

I've been thinking about various times where people have feelings about a perceived need someone else might have. I am sure you have all heard stories about someone having a "god moment" and they are "told" to go do something or are compelled (i.e. give money, buy something, do something, etc.) for someone else even though the recipient never told anyone or very few people. I have to admit that this intrigues me. I am not necessarily buying into this as "god inspired" so much as I think maybe there is a collective consciousness among humans. Maybe not Borg like, but maybe there is something there in us humans that senses needs of others. Does anyone have thoughts on this or know of research that may validate it? Just fodder for discussion in an otherwise slow forum these days.

Our consciousness/mind is the result of swarm behavior of cells. Fish and birds can act in swarm behavior without any specific leader. It's the emergence of higher processes and states. Look into those areas. There are parts in our brain that encourage team/group behavior because it can be beneficial to ourselves. Help someone, they help me, we both win.

[sdelsolray]

I've been thinking about various times where people have feelings about a perceived need someone else might have. I am sure you have all heard stories about someone having a "god moment" and they are "told" to go do something or are compelled (i.e. give money, buy something, do something, etc.) for someone else even though the recipient never told anyone or very few people. I have to admit that this intrigues me. I am not necessarily buying into this as "god inspired" so much as I think maybe there is a collective consciousness among humans. Maybe not Borg like, but maybe there is something there in us humans that senses needs of others. Does anyone have thoughts on this or know of research that may validate it? Just fodder for discussion in an otherwise slow forum these days.

Perhaps you could study the concept of emergent property.  In this context, consciousness is an emergent property of certain combinations of matter and energy.

[ogilvy]

I used to read missionary type books about people like Hudson Taylor and George Muller. Lots of stories along the lines of a christian person running an orphanage and there's no food for supper but they pray and they set the table and sit down for supper. Next thing there's a knock at the door and a parcel of food is left. Or they need a certain amount of money to pay a bill otherwise they lose the building and then that exact amount of money arrives in an envelope. The Lord has 'laid it upon the heart' of someone to send that amount of money,without knowing why. These kinds of stories are common in modern day missionary accounts too. I used to think Christians wouldn't lie! It still puzzles me a bit how it happens, I mean how the stories originate. Do people knowingly make up the stories or what happens?

[directionless]

IMO the problem is not lack of evidence but lack of explanation. To design an experiment the scientist needs an explanation to test, but no explanations come close.

[Voice]

I am reminded of the Nicholas Cage movie "the Sorcerer's Apprentice" where the kid is asking questions about magic and Cage's character just basically explains magic as manipulating what is already there. I am certainly not trying to be argumentative in this discussion, but I am genuinely interested in the subject matter.

Evidence is an oft thrown about word. Everyone wants evidence, but I really wonder what it is that we are looking for. It is certainly plausible that biblegod could use everyday things and manipulate the world for his "plan" and we would never see it because of natural phenomena that we would never consider extraordinary. Hence, "miracles" could be occurring everyday and we would blindly look past them because they are natural everyday occurrences. Or we dismiss something because we see that the law of probability can account for things, but that doesn't mean that it didn't occur due to some outside force. It sure seems easy to explain away things that could be evidence, but are possibly things that we don't understand. I am a believer that science cannot disprove a god because there is no reason that a supernatural god could not use the laws set in motion that we understand. Through reason and observation, I can conclude that biblegod is an unlikely being and that christianity is a man made religion. But, I could argue that what we could chalk up to be true simply because of the law of probability, could just as easily be a supernatural being using everyday law of nature things to work things out for his "purpose". I am probably working towards the edge of my reasoning of this subject and I will gladly concede that there are people in this arena that are more aptly capable of discussing such things. But, my desire to look at things objectively pushes me to question it all.

 

ENTER:  FORUM SCIENCE JESTER

 

I've been working with probability calcs for this kind of stuff for about 30 years.  It wasn't until the first 10 or 15 that I even considered it more than coincidence.  A couple of cases left me knowing the chances of some things (which people would say are coincidence) happening as coincidence are astronomical.  The chance of these types of events being coincidence are astronomical.  They are not coincidence.  They would be coincidence, mathematically I would count them as such up to the first 3 occurrences with the same person.  After that, however...  some people have a talent.  It proves mathematically.

So I started calling it the social brainwave.   

 

There are a lot of stories some of you have told of things that don't pan out.  Elements of the stories lack, and as many of you have pointed out, a thing has to repeat.  With this stuff, I always let the first 3 occurrences of a social thing like this go as coincidence.  After that I'll investigate further and find if there's a source in it somewhere.

 

There is empathy as some of you emphasize.  Powerful thing, empathy.  Way more than we know and understand.  It's key.

The right hemisphere of the brain has a known empathy center.  The size of a half dollar piece maybe, or a marble for others I suppose.  Could be huge in some people.  Experiments with it show that people can be made to feel what other people feel.  I saw a TED talk on it specifically.  Very interesting.