claireann Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2013/08/why-would-a-good-god-allow-pain-and-suffering.html I know I should stay away from these Christian sites, they get my blood boiling so much it's not good for me! I just couldn't help myself when I read this post (it's part of a series of posts on the problem of suffering and evil), I had to post a comment. I just can't bare the mea culpa madness that says that sick children are part of some loving discipline from God because we humans are so evil. It sounds so much like a stereotypical abused spouse situation. We made God do it, we're so worthless, He didn't want to but we just pushed Him so far and now look what we made Him do. We're nothing without Him and He just has to discipline us because He loves us so much. Puke. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaLeah Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Ew. I clicked on the article. Repugnant. Sounds like the person who wrote that blog is trying to convince him/herself way too hard. Christians really are backed into a corner--if God is all powerful, he's allowing this to happen for some reason. If God isn't all powerful, the Bible isn't true and I can't look forward to going to heaven when I die or have the consolation that a child who suffers and dies gets to go to heaven afterwards as a sort of prize for going through it. Instead, I'd have to be a realist and look at the world as more random and unfair than I want it to be so... Yeah, God has some sort of lesson for us in suffering. That must mean a child suffering is part of God's plan, and therefore beneficial and good in some way. Suffering children doesn't seem good to me, it feels wrong, and therefore a God who allows it seems evil, but (oh no I better wash my brain out with soap this instant for having such a thought!) I must be the stupid small-minded one who doesn't see the bigger picture somehow, and I must immediately put that blasphemous thought about God out of my head right now. (After all, if God sees that thought, it might look like a lack of faith, and he might punish me somehow until I can learn to acknowledge his full amazing glory. I'd better avoid a painful lesson and just force myself right now to make the argument in God's favor so I can convince my feeble mind God is always good, wise, and just.) Totally vomit-worthy. This is what happens when we let emotions override our logic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BendyLine Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 claireanne, I read your link earlier, and I read what I'm assuming was your reply, and I just want to say you kick ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Funny how they always assume that an omni-everything gawd has no other way than punish humans with such petty measures... in these punishment ideas the bastard never has that much more power than an ordinary human, at least if the yardstick is omnipotence. If some human needs to be punished, first that means that gawd has fucked up royally, supposedly knowing everything (thus having known in advance what would happen) and being capable of everything (thus having been able to prevent it from happening), and hence the only one who'd need to be punished is itself. Second, if a child must be punished for the "sins" of her parents, gawd fucked up again - an omni-everything entiry can punish the real perpetrator, efficiently and without any collateral damage. So yeah, morontheists babbling about that punishment thing is morontheists admitting that their scripchas lie. Not that they'll ever get that, or be willing to get that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Good to know the loss of my whole family and culture was just all just a pinprick from the hands of loving father god! He sure must love me, eh? He sure must have needed to discipline me, a little baby who didn't even know what was going on. I've heard the argument before that god "allows suffering" because he is like a loving father giving a shot to his child. This really is not the case. For many torturous, barbaric things happen on this earth and I have personally been on the receiving end of that kind of anguish. And to think of animals tortured....helpless and screaming never to know anything but agony followed by death. To quote from the wonderful movie "god on trial"...."God is not good. He is not good." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 ...I've heard the argument before that god "allows suffering" because he is like a loving father giving a shot to his child... Yeah there's it again, this idiocy. Why does a loving father allow the shot? Because the kid needs to be treated and the shot is the best available option. If that father had another option, one that leads to the same end result but without the pain of the shot, would he still choose the shot? Not if he's loving. Gawd is supposedly more loving than any human can ever be, plus capable of totally everything. If it allows such painful measures then it's at least not both of these things, if any at all. Case closed, morontheist mocked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 In the analogy of the shot, at least it would be possible to explain to the child why the shot was necessary. That parallel simply does not exist in many cases of suffering in the world. Christians must elevate suffering. It must be something for an ultimate good, otherwise the love and power of God is questionable. This "ultimate good" of suffering is not seen here on earth, so it is beyond this life. That is only the beginning of the problem too because when you throw the idea of original sin into the mix and say we all deserve God's "justice" and yet we have God's "love" it just makes no sense. A person may suffer horribly whether Christian or non-Christian. God is no respecter of persons in life and there is no "justice". So either "love" has to be redefined, as the blogger tried to do, or "all powerful" must be redefined, as others have tried to do, or it all is removed beyond this life, to an imaginary heaven and hell. The problem of evil is the Achilles heel of Christianity. I even heard one Christian actually say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BendyLine Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The battered spouse analogy is so fitting for Christianity it isn't even funny. A few months ago I was reading James, and I honestly started missing being a Christian for a while. Then I remembered the lunacy of the OT. I felt like a battered woman on a daytime talk show... "Sure, he's pro genocide and slavery, but the stuff in the NT is so sweet and sensitive!" 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claireann Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 claireanne, I read your link earlier, and I read what I'm assuming was your reply, and I just want to say you kick ass. Thanks BL, right back at ya, I see you've been asking them some insightful questions even if they're tap dancing like Fred Astaire rather than answer them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Here's an old article I did on that subject: http://articles.exchristian.net/2009/07/god-of-abuse.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BendyLine Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Urgh... arguing with the people from the OP's link.... I didn't realize they were Reformed folks going into this... Reformed are the worst when it comes to debates, discussions, arguments, or even just explaining their fucking doctrine. They never answer a direct question, they just dance around it. When backed into a corner, they do one of the following: 1. Act as if you are not worth their time and refuse to answer your questions (often claiming you have to be a Christian to understand their arguments). 2. Rehash their original debunked arguments, just with big words 3. Refer to some dusty old doctrine or a random Bible passage that does not answer the question 4. Reply with absolute nonsense that I'm convinced even other Reformed folks wouldn't understand So far in the comments I think we've seen all of the above. Somebody stop me the next time I try to argue with a Calvinist so I can go and do something more pleasant, like stick my penis into a food processor. EDIT: spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 So far in the comments I think we've seen all of the above. Somebody stop me the next time I try to argue with a Calvinist so I can go and do something more pleasant, like stick my penis into a food processor. EDIT: spelling Best line I've seen today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claireann Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Urgh... arguing with the people from the OP's link.... I didn't realize they were Reformed folks going into this... Reformed are the worst when it comes to debates, discussions, arguments, or even just explaining their fucking doctrine. They never answer a direct question, they just dance around it. When backed into a corner, they do one of the following: 1. Act as if you are not worth their time and refuse to answer your questions (often claiming you have to be a Christian to understand their arguments). 2. Rehash their original debunked arguments, just with big words 3. Refer to some dusty old doctrine or a random Bible passage that does not answer the question 4. Reply with absolute nonsense that I'm convinced even other Reformed folks wouldn't understand So far in the comments I think we've seen all of the above. Somebody stop me the next time I try to argue with a Calvinist so I can go and do something more pleasant, like stick my penis into a food processor. EDIT: spelling I do apologise BendyLine for leading you down that rabbit hole, it's a site that I used to frequent regularly for the last ten years of my belief when I was trying to bolster my faith with reasonable arguments in favour of God. I still find myself there voicing all my frustrations with those same bad arguments. It's a pointless exercise though, there are about 70 comments after that post now and all the pro-God ones are as clear as mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaLeah Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Wow, I just read through the comments over there. Totally abusive spouse syndrome. Underneath, a total terror of god. I remember that--being afraid to even question god or god's existence, as that might mean a terrible punishment if I were wrong (god might exist and be terrible, but since god makes the rules, I have to go along with them and pretend I don't mind, that I actually agree and like it), so my brain tried to veer away from comprehending what my subconscious mind already knew: this god as depicted in the bible is super cruel and awful. And there's no way to validate or excuse its actions. People can try, but it just ends up sounding like a battered spouse defending his/her abuser. I'm so glad I escaped from that awful mentality, but I feel pity for people who are still trapped in that abusive (though non-existent) relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaLeah Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 A specific comment over there is really sticking in my head: that everyone DESERVES hell and any good thing other than that is through god's amazing love and mercy. I mean... how can anyone think a human being deserves everlasting punishment in hell just for being born?? None of us asked to be born. If this god existed as all-powerful creator, this god could change the rules, so this god is not only okay with hell, this god CREATED hell as the eternal torture chamber for anyone who didn't find god, or displeased god, or believed in the wrong god by mistake. Sick. But not just sick. Incredibly stupid and deluded. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BendyLine Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I do apologise BendyLine for leading you down that rabbit hole, it's a site that I used to frequent regularly for the last ten years of my belief when I was trying to bolster my faith with reasonable arguments in favour of God. I still find myself there voicing all my frustrations with those same bad arguments. It's a pointless exercise though, there are about 70 comments after that post now and all the pro-God ones are as clear as mud. No apology necessary, for all my bitching and moaning it was fun rumbling with those folks. I guess when I realized it was a hopeless case I lost all interest. It was a learning experience, and I enjoyed watching those folks retreat into their predictable defenses. And yeah, most of their replies pretty much devolved into ad-hominem attacks against unbelievers or pseudo-intellectual nonsense. Clear as mud. Did anyone notice that the next entry on that blog was about how most questions that atheists ask are not worth answering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claireann Posted August 16, 2013 Author Share Posted August 16, 2013 Did anyone notice that the next entry on that blog was about how most questions that atheists ask are not worth answering? I noticed that too. It's even a reposting of a video from a few months ago so it struck me as quite the coincidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingernut Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Good old Stand to Reason....I used to go there, too. It is like battered spouse syndrome. You hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts