angelus5370 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 ......... But, letting go, or getting tripped up by the Bible at times happens to me more often than I wish it would. Would it be helpful at all for you to know that there is not one single word that has thus far been found anywhere in the annals of history that confirms anything written in the gospels actually happened, or that any of the gospel characters ever existed in the flesh, including Jesus? Most people are not aware no one even knows where the gospels came from? The only existed in oral form for untold decades before anyone began writing them down. There are no original autographs because they never existed in the first place. The similarities between the gospels and numerous other pagan dying rising god men stories is impossible to conceal. These stories existed for hundreds of years before the Jesus story began to circulate. Many of the NT writings are proven forgeries. Paul’s letters preceded the gospels by decades and if they are read it context it becomes evident that Paul was unaware of an earthly Jesus. Paul’s Jesus was a spiritual messiah that lived in the heavens. God spoke to Paul through the OT not by verbal inspiration. Paul believed Jesus was coming soon to establish an earthly Kingdom but that has yet to occur. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything. Those names were added to the oral stories after they were written down decades later by unknown scribes. When the bible is read and studied form the historic critical method the stories and events quickly unravel and it becomes clear the stories are myths. When the Book of Acts, for example, is read by a critical historian it quickly becomes obvious that the entire book is a complete fabrication. Its fiction disguised as history and that is true of the gospels too. The entire bible is a collection of myths and fables masquerading as historical fact. There is no, as in none, not any paper trail that confirms any of it ever happened. According to history no one living in the early part of the first century ever heard of a man named Jesus of Nazareth and that makes sense because Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. And all of that only touches on all the problems with the gospels and the bible in general that have been exposed to the light of day by religious scholars. Do you have solid proof the Bible is not the Word of God? I will refer you to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Elaine Pagels, Dr. Garry Wills, Dr. Karen Armstrong, Dr. Robert M. Price, and Dr. John Dominic Crossan. After you have finished reading their books I'll give you another list. A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were asking a serous question and was seeking a serious informed answer. Apparently you are just trolling. No problem, it apparently gives you something to do. No, not trolling. Books written by people who have had no real religious back ground is not an expert. Most doctors believe in science, not religion.....besides Christianity is not a religion. I hear a lot of people on here say they found contradictions in the Bible. Would be nice to hear what contradictions they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Angelus5370 said, Books written by people who have had no real religious back ground is not an expert........ I hear a lot of people on here say they found contradictions in the Bible. Would be nice to hear what contradictions they are talking about You are correct there are no contradictions or inconsistencies in the bible. It is truly the inerrant, inspired, literal and therefore the infallible words of God. You ware too clever and wise for me. I am a false prophet, a servant of Lucifer himself, and you by the divine indwelling spirit of God recognized who I am and revealed me to the world. You clever rascal! Foiled again! No matter, there are plenty of gullible people left for me to deceive. Off with you oh daughter of light. Be on your way and do the work that you were sent to do……and be quick about it. There is many a jewel left for you to win for your crown. The fields are truly white for the harvest and you are clearly filled with the spirit. Don’t waste your time with heathens who are without hope. Again I say, off with you now….be on your way and may the lord bless your journey. Amen and amen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymenaeusAlexander Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 No, not trolling. Books written by people who have had no real religious back ground is not an expert. Most doctors believe in science, not religion.....besides Christianity is not a religion. I hear a lot of people on here say they found contradictions in the Bible. Would be nice to hear what contradictions they are talking about. Those "doctors" Geezer referenced have Ph.Ds in the relevant fields of study here, i.e. the bible and religion. Saying Christianity is not a religion without qualification is just silly. Words have meanings. Religion has a definition. Every expression of Christianity I've ever heard of fits that definition. The only time Christianity doesn't fit that definition is when someone makes up their own definition of "religion" and frames it in such a way that it excludes their version of Christianity so that what they're really saying is "Christianity has distinctives." Well, no shit it does. So does every other religion. If you're genuinely interested in hearing what contradictions people have found, then go start a thread in the Lion's Den. I'm sure you'll get some takers. The problem is going to be that I suspect you wouldn't accept any of the ones people would offer. I typically start with Judas' death as a litmus test and see how people respond. The typical response is a strained harmonization along with some special pleading resulting in an account that bares no resemblance to a plain reading of either the account recorded in Acts or the one in Matthew. I think the reason this happens is that most inerrantists employ their own little internal syllogism that usually goes something like this: 1) The Bible never makes contradictions 2) All alleged contradictions can be harmonized 3) Since the Bible never makes contradictions, all harmonizations are inherently more probable than the idea that there are contradictions 4) All harmonizations stand 5) Therefore, there are no contradictions in the Bible. If you're going to take a similar track then there really is no point to the discussion. You can spend all day running back and forth to JP Holding's site offering the same tired harmonizations apologists like him have done for centuries. It will amount to nothing because you will have already decided before even starting that the Bible cannot contain contradictions. Nothing we could offer would overcome that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Here's a few contradictions for starters: The Bible was written by imperfect humans, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 ......... But, letting go, or getting tripped up by the Bible at times happens to me more often than I wish it would. Would it be helpful at all for you to know that there is not one single word that has thus far been found anywhere in the annals of history that confirms anything written in the gospels actually happened, or that any of the gospel characters ever existed in the flesh, including Jesus? Most people are not aware no one even knows where the gospels came from? The only existed in oral form for untold decades before anyone began writing them down. There are no original autographs because they never existed in the first place. The similarities between the gospels and numerous other pagan dying rising god men stories is impossible to conceal. These stories existed for hundreds of years before the Jesus story began to circulate. Many of the NT writings are proven forgeries. Paul’s letters preceded the gospels by decades and if they are read it context it becomes evident that Paul was unaware of an earthly Jesus. Paul’s Jesus was a spiritual messiah that lived in the heavens. God spoke to Paul through the OT not by verbal inspiration. Paul believed Jesus was coming soon to establish an earthly Kingdom but that has yet to occur. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything. Those names were added to the oral stories after they were written down decades later by unknown scribes. When the bible is read and studied form the historic critical method the stories and events quickly unravel and it becomes clear the stories are myths. When the Book of Acts, for example, is read by a critical historian it quickly becomes obvious that the entire book is a complete fabrication. Its fiction disguised as history and that is true of the gospels too. The entire bible is a collection of myths and fables masquerading as historical fact. There is no, as in none, not any paper trail that confirms any of it ever happened. According to history no one living in the early part of the first century ever heard of a man named Jesus of Nazareth and that makes sense because Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. And all of that only touches on all the problems with the gospels and the bible in general that have been exposed to the light of day by religious scholars. Do you have solid proof the Bible is not the Word of God? I will refer you to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Elaine Pagels, Dr. Garry Wills, Dr. Karen Armstrong, Dr. Robert M. Price, and Dr. John Dominic Crossan. After you have finished reading their books I'll give you another list. A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Please demonstrate more of your willful ignorance. It should be entertaining. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 ......... But, letting go, or getting tripped up by the Bible at times happens to me more often than I wish it would. Would it be helpful at all for you to know that there is not one single word that has thus far been found anywhere in the annals of history that confirms anything written in the gospels actually happened, or that any of the gospel characters ever existed in the flesh, including Jesus? Most people are not aware no one even knows where the gospels came from? The only existed in oral form for untold decades before anyone began writing them down. There are no original autographs because they never existed in the first place. The similarities between the gospels and numerous other pagan dying rising god men stories is impossible to conceal. These stories existed for hundreds of years before the Jesus story began to circulate. Many of the NT writings are proven forgeries. Paul’s letters preceded the gospels by decades and if they are read it context it becomes evident that Paul was unaware of an earthly Jesus. Paul’s Jesus was a spiritual messiah that lived in the heavens. God spoke to Paul through the OT not by verbal inspiration. Paul believed Jesus was coming soon to establish an earthly Kingdom but that has yet to occur. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything. Those names were added to the oral stories after they were written down decades later by unknown scribes. When the bible is read and studied form the historic critical method the stories and events quickly unravel and it becomes clear the stories are myths. When the Book of Acts, for example, is read by a critical historian it quickly becomes obvious that the entire book is a complete fabrication. Its fiction disguised as history and that is true of the gospels too. The entire bible is a collection of myths and fables masquerading as historical fact. There is no, as in none, not any paper trail that confirms any of it ever happened. According to history no one living in the early part of the first century ever heard of a man named Jesus of Nazareth and that makes sense because Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. And all of that only touches on all the problems with the gospels and the bible in general that have been exposed to the light of day by religious scholars. Do you have solid proof the Bible is not the Word of God? I will refer you to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Elaine Pagels, Dr. Garry Wills, Dr. Karen Armstrong, Dr. Robert M. Price, and Dr. John Dominic Crossan. After you have finished reading their books I'll give you another list. A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Please demonstrate more of your willful ignorance. It should be entertaining. Did you get all that knowledge in your post above from reading these books? There are archeologists that have found King David's Palace, chariot wheels and human remains in the Red Sea, James ossuary, Noah's Ark in Turkey, Shroud of Turan, etc. with real pictures and video feed. But then I am sure you can find a way to explain that away. Hey, what about actual pictures of demons and angels appearing on camera? No, I guess that won't do it either. It doesn't matter if there's proof of anything or not, sometimes you just have to have faith. People writing books about God without faith, how amusing. I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. But, hey thanks for the list of books I will check these out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymenaeusAlexander Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. But that’s exactly what you do. You trust the assumptions of man on God and the Bible. You don’t have faith in God. You have faith in the things you’ve been told about God or read about God. Things that were written or spoken by other human beings. Unless, of course, you’ve heard from God directly. In that case, you’d be trusting that your own senses have correctly interpreted that conversation and that you really were speaking to God and not something or someone else. The James ossuary? Noah’s ark? The Shroud of Turin? Really? Come on. You can’t be serious. Have you actually looked into those things or are you just repeating things you’ve been told? What a waste of time. Geezer’s approach was correct. No matter, there are plenty of gullible people left for me to deceive. Off with you oh daughter of light. Be on your way and do the work that you were sent to do……and be quick about it. There is many a jewel left for you to win for your crown. The fields are truly white for the harvest and you are clearly filled with the spirit. Don’t waste your time with heathens who are without hope. Again I say, off with you now….be on your way and may the lord bless your journey. Amen and amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Hey Geezer, It is people like this latest poster that get annoying for people like me. To Angelus: Everyone of the archeological things that you have cited have also been debunked, or there has not been enough critical research to absolutely verify without a doubt. King David's Palace-- you want to know how many of these have been discovered-- several!! Just about every archeologist who discovers any kind of large structure around Jerusalem states that they have discovered David's Palace-- guess why? It gets them $$$$$$$ and attention. Yet, at any of these supposed sites, there has never been discovered any proof that they have anything to do with David. Noah's Ark-- which ark are you talking about-- all have been debunked. The latest was a group of Chinese Christians who were decieved by people in Turkey and told a structure up in the mountains was Noah's Ark-- been debunked, as have all others. Chariot Wheels-- from Ron Wyatt? It has been proven that his bunk archeological research is a bunch of crap, his pictures are fake and he has not proven anything significant.-- but he did make a lot of money off of gullible people like you. Shroud of Turin-- still very much up for debate-- only strong believers keep trying to find new ways to research and discount the fact that radio-carbon dating doesn't support that this came from Jesus' time but rather medieival times-- when relics of this nature brought fame and, you guessed it $$$$$!! Angels on camera-- every hear of photoshop? or paradelia? Unless a damn angel/devil taps me on the shoulder, I ain't buying it. Sorry, lady, but I am so friggin sick of people like you-- do some goddamn research on the alternative objectionism these things before you come on a site like this and start spouting. You are not going to win me back to the Lord. If you don't like what we have to say, go somewhere else. If you are truly questioning your faith, then stop posting crud like this. We have debunked it all-- I left church to get away from people like you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Did you get all that knowledge in your post above from reading these books? There are archeologists that have found King David's Palace, chariot wheels and human remains in the Red Sea, James ossuary, Noah's Ark in Turkey, Shroud of Turan, etc. with real pictures and video feed. But then I am sure you can find a way to explain that away. Hey, what about actual pictures of demons and angels appearing on camera? No, I guess that won't do it either. It doesn't matter if there's proof of anything or not, sometimes you just have to have faith. People writing books about God without faith, how amusing. I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. But, hey thanks for the list of books I will check these out. Even if all of the artifacts you mentioned were in fact verified to be real and located, they still are not proof that the bible is gods word. they would only be proof that the people who wrote the books mentioned those particular things in their stories. I am in total agreement that to say that there are no contradictions in the bible has failed to actually study it. I will give you a contradiction that you will likely not hear from people, but it is this: The true definition of love is often equated with 1 Corinthians 13. So I began to look at how the bible talks about love. 1st John 4:7 states the following: 7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. 8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love. So we see here that the bible equates god with love so much so that it states the he is love. So by definition of scripture, he should embody the attributes listed as characteristics of love in 1st Corinthians 13. So...does he? Starting with 13:4 we see: 4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude Exodus 20:5:You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me. Exodus 34:14: You must worship no other gods, for the LORD, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you. Deuteronomy 4:24: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. and several other verses to this affect. Chapter 13 continues... 5 It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. Exodus 32: 7-8: 7 The Lord told Moses, “Quick! Go down the mountain! Your people whom you brought from the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 How quickly they have turned away from the way I commanded them to live! They have melted down gold and made a calf, and they have bowed down and sacrificed to it. They are saying, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.’" 9 Then the Lord said, “I have seen how stubborn and rebellious these people are. 10 Now leave me alone so my fierce anger can blaze against them, and I will destroy them. Then I will make you, Moses, into a great nation.” Revelation 20:12: I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. Chapter 13 continues... 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. I cannot find anything specific to this, I believe that this is a universal truth as it is unlikely anyone would rejoice in injustice, but would be happy when the truth wins out. It continues... 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance The entire bible is a testament that god gives up, loses faith, is not always hopeful, and does not endure through every circumstance The entire book of revelations is also a testament that, at some point, god gives up on the world and destroys it and heaven and starts over. I have only provided a sample of several verses that would be additional support to my points in this essay, however, I believe that the evidence is clear that god is, in fact, not love, nor does he represent love very well. How can someone not see that there is a problem with all of this? If you cant, then I would argue that you are simply willfully ignorant. How sad for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Please demonstrate more of your willful ignorance. It should be entertaining. Did you get all that knowledge in your post above from reading these books? There are archeologists that have found King David's Palace, chariot wheels and human remains in the Red Sea, James ossuary, Noah's Ark in Turkey, Shroud of Turan, etc. with real pictures and video feed. But then I am sure you can find a way to explain that away. Hey, what about actual pictures of demons and angels appearing on camera? No, I guess that won't do it either. It doesn't matter if there's proof of anything or not, sometimes you just have to have faith. People writing books about God without faith, how amusing. I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. But, hey thanks for the list of books I will check these out. Hey Angelus! Sorry to be a party-pooper, but it's already too late for you to choose to be ignorant - rather than trusting the assumptions of man. If you've ever used electricity, computers, drugs, plastics, telephones, microwave ovens, refrigerators or a thousand other things in your modern, technology-driven world, then you've already placed your trust in the assumptions of imperfect men and women. Almost everything you rely upon in your life today is based upon a whole raft of technical and scientific assumptions. Here's just one example. Uniformitarianism ( http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Uniformitarianism ) is the assumption that underpins all of the science of Geology. So that's mining geology, petrology, oceanography, geophysics, mineralogy, groundwater geology and much more. The people who actually get the oil, coal, iron, tin, lead and gold out of the ground rely on Uniformitarian assumptions - because they work. Which explains why there's no such thing as a Creationist oil company that uses scripture to tell them where to drill. Nor will you ever find an oil company that uses a Genesis-based timescale to tell them how quickly buried plant matter is converted into usable crude oil. Why? Because the un-Biblical assumptions of men are useful and practical and they work. If they didn't work they wouldn't be used, now would they? ExxonMobil and Chevron aren't going to waste their time and money on something that doesn't get results. That's why they use these assumptions to do their business, to stay solvent and to plan for the future. As I said, this is just one example of very many. Where does the electricity come from that you're using right now? Any source you can name will be from a technology based on human assumptions. That's true not just for oil, gas and coal, but also wind power, tidal power, hydroelectric power and nuclear power. Wind and water turbines take the many working assumptions of fluid dynamics ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics ) into account in their design. http://westinghousenuclear.com These guys take the necessary assumptions of quantum theory and nuclear theory VERY seriously indeed! Maybe you think they should rely on the 'perfect' and 'inerrant' word of god to help them run their reactors more efficiently? If so, why not write them and suggest the relevant chapter and verse? . . . Sorry again Angelus, but your wilful ignorance doesn't change the fact that your life is defined not by your beliefs in a minor Middle Eastern sky god but by the collective assumptions of your fellow human beings. They are the ones who permit and enable you to live in America today. Our society is built upon the all-too-human assumptions of those who came before us and shaped our culture and those who continue to shape it. Ok, you can shut your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA-LA-LA-LA!", desperately wanting all these ungodly assumptions to go away. But they won't. Nor can you make them do so. I can even prove it. As a nurse you're trained in Anatomy, Physiology, Epidemiology, Medication Administration, Psychology, Ethics and Nursing Theory, right? Each and every one of your areas of training is underpinned by more assumptions than I can efficiently list here. Every day of your working life you've been applying these scientific assumptions without even knowing it. See? You've been trusting in the secular, agnostic assumptions of man and will continue to do so for as long as you live. BAA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I look on the positive side when we are blessed with a visit from a Born Again Fundamentalist. It brings back memories of who I used to be and refreshes my mind by allowing me to see just how far I’ve come. Yep, that was me twenty or so years ago. Not a pretty picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Please demonstrate more of your willful ignorance. It should be entertaining. Did you get all that knowledge in your post above from reading these books? ... No, not at all. I surmised you were willfully ignorant only from your own posts in this thread. Fancy that. ... There are archeologists that have found King David's Palace, chariot wheels and human remains in the Red Sea, James ossuary, Noah's Ark in Turkey, Shroud of Turan, etc. with real pictures and video feed. But then I am sure you can find a way to explain that away. Hey, what about actual pictures of demons and angels appearing on camera? ... Just not in any way you can demonstrate. Obviously, you actually believe the lies and misrepresentations put forth by creationist and theist whores. I thought this would be entertaining. It is. ... No, I guess that won't do it either. It doesn't matter if there's proof of anything or not, sometimes you just have to have faith. ... Speak for yourself. Religious faith is for cowards, particularly ones who are intellectually lazy and/or have been emotionally and psychologically abused as children with religious indoctrination. ... People writing books about God without faith, how amusing. ... Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Why am I not surprised? ... I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. ... Thanks for demonstrating a method by which your willful ignorance is maintained. ... But, hey thanks for the list of books I will check these out. You are welcome. There is a difference between (i) visiting your favorite creationist/theist website to "check these out" and (ii) actually taking the time to read them (or some of them) cover to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Here's a few contradictions for starters: The Bible was written by imperfect humans, too. Influenced by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Books which you have not read and refuse to read. Please demonstrate more of your willful ignorance. It should be entertaining. Did you get all that knowledge in your post above from reading these books? There are archeologists that have found King David's Palace, chariot wheels and human remains in the Red Sea, James ossuary, Noah's Ark in Turkey, Shroud of Turan, etc. with real pictures and video feed. But then I am sure you can find a way to explain that away. Hey, what about actual pictures of demons and angels appearing on camera? No, I guess that won't do it either. It doesn't matter if there's proof of anything or not, sometimes you just have to have faith. People writing books about God without faith, how amusing. I would rather be ignorant than trust the assumptions of man on God or the Bible. But, hey thanks for the list of books I will check these out. Hey Angelus! Sorry to be a party-pooper, but it's already too late for you to choose to be ignorant - rather than trusting the assumptions of man. If you've ever used electricity, computers, drugs, plastics, telephones, microwave ovens, refrigerators or a thousand other things in your modern, technology-driven world, then you've already placed your trust in the assumptions of imperfect men and women. Almost everything you rely upon in your life today is based upon a whole raft of technical and scientific assumptions. Here's just one example. Uniformitarianism ( http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Uniformitarianism ) is the assumption that underpins all of the science of Geology. So that's mining geology, petrology, oceanography, geophysics, mineralogy, groundwater geology and much more. The people who actually get the oil, coal, iron, tin, lead and gold out of the ground rely on Uniformitarian assumptions - because they work. Which explains why there's no such thing as a Creationist oil company that uses scripture to tell them where to drill. Nor will you ever find an oil company that uses a Genesis-based timescale to tell them how quickly buried plant matter is converted into usable crude oil. Why? Because the un-Biblical assumptions of men are useful and practical and they work. If they didn't work they wouldn't be used, now would they? ExxonMobil and Chevron aren't going to waste their time and money on something that doesn't get results. That's why they use these assumptions to do their business, to stay solvent and to plan for the future. As I said, this is just one example of very many. Where does the electricity come from that you're using right now? Any source you can name will be from a technology based on human assumptions. That's true not just for oil, gas and coal, but also wind power, tidal power, hydroelectric power and nuclear power. Wind and water turbines take the many working assumptions of fluid dynamics ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics ) into account in their design. http://westinghousenuclear.com These guys take the necessary assumptions of quantum theory and nuclear theory VERY seriously indeed! Maybe you think they should rely on the 'perfect' and 'inerrant' word of god to help them run their reactors more efficiently? If so, why not write them and suggest the relevant chapter and verse? . . . Sorry again Angelus, but your wilful ignorance doesn't change the fact that your life is defined not by your beliefs in a minor Middle Eastern sky god but by the collective assumptions of your fellow human beings. They are the ones who permit and enable you to live in America today. Our society is built upon the all-too-human assumptions of those who came before us and shaped our culture and those who continue to shape it. Ok, you can shut your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA-LA-LA-LA!", desperately wanting all these ungodly assumptions to go away. But they won't. Nor can you make them do so. I can even prove it. As a nurse you're trained in Anatomy, Physiology, Epidemiology, Medication Administration, Psychology, Ethics and Nursing Theory, right? Each and every one of your areas of training is underpinned by more assumptions than I can efficiently list here. Every day of your working life you've been applying these scientific assumptions without even knowing it. See? You've been trusting in the secular, agnostic assumptions of man and will continue to do so for as long as you live. BAA Nursing does not deal with assumptions, only doctors assume by physical symptoms when they diagnose. The doctor writes the orders for treatment and we carry them out. There are no assumptions in the body's anatomy or physiology nor anything above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 ......... But, letting go, or getting tripped up by the Bible at times happens to me more often than I wish it would. Would it be helpful at all for you to know that there is not one single word that has thus far been found anywhere in the annals of history that confirms anything written in the gospels actually happened, or that any of the gospel characters ever existed in the flesh, including Jesus? Most people are not aware no one even knows where the gospels came from? The only existed in oral form for untold decades before anyone began writing them down. There are no original autographs because they never existed in the first place. The similarities between the gospels and numerous other pagan dying rising god men stories is impossible to conceal. These stories existed for hundreds of years before the Jesus story began to circulate. Many of the NT writings are proven forgeries. Paul’s letters preceded the gospels by decades and if they are read it context it becomes evident that Paul was unaware of an earthly Jesus. Paul’s Jesus was a spiritual messiah that lived in the heavens. God spoke to Paul through the OT not by verbal inspiration. Paul believed Jesus was coming soon to establish an earthly Kingdom but that has yet to occur. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything. Those names were added to the oral stories after they were written down decades later by unknown scribes. When the bible is read and studied form the historic critical method the stories and events quickly unravel and it becomes clear the stories are myths. When the Book of Acts, for example, is read by a critical historian it quickly becomes obvious that the entire book is a complete fabrication. Its fiction disguised as history and that is true of the gospels too. The entire bible is a collection of myths and fables masquerading as historical fact. There is no, as in none, not any paper trail that confirms any of it ever happened. According to history no one living in the early part of the first century ever heard of a man named Jesus of Nazareth and that makes sense because Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. And all of that only touches on all the problems with the gospels and the bible in general that have been exposed to the light of day by religious scholars. Do you have solid proof the Bible is not the Word of God? I will refer you to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Elaine Pagels, Dr. Garry Wills, Dr. Karen Armstrong, Dr. Robert M. Price, and Dr. John Dominic Crossan. After you have finished reading their books I'll give you another list. A list of books written by imperfect humans........ Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were asking a serous question and was seeking a serious informed answer. Apparently you are just trolling. No problem, it apparently gives you something to do. The PhD's you have mentioned above consist of a so called New Testament scholar, Professor of Religion especially Revelation, historian on the catholic church, a former catholic nun into new age religion, and one who calls himself a Christian atheist. Wow, I'll really get some serious answers from this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Here's a few contradictions for starters: The Bible was written by imperfect humans, too. Influenced by God. Clearly you didn't even watch the video. How can you believe that the Bible was written by divine inspiration while simultaneously believing the God is not the author of confusion? And don't answer that question without watching the video. The PhD's you have so casually dismissed have done much more research on these topics than you. If you want to remain ignorant, that's fine - just don't try to pass yourself off as a person possessing some sort of wisdom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The main reason I deconverted was because I figured if there was an all-knowing god out there and the Bible was it's way of communicating to us then the Bible had to be perfect... and if I was a real devotee then I needed to study it - to 'seek' truth. There could be no 'making shit up', it's either there and god said it, or it isn't. The christians who were obviously cherry-picking annoyed me right from the start... because the Bible says they are misled if anything they do or say goes against god's word. Well.. bacon and shrimp and polyester blends screws that up right there. I took Jesus' words that not one jot would be removed from the law.. that the LAW was god's perfect way for us to live. Not the ten commandments.. the LAW (600 and something commandments) I didn't buy that gentiles were off the hook, because effectively when you choose Yahweh you are being adopted into his 'family' and that would be Israel (the original Israel - not the modern country) Once I realized that the law demanded certain behaviours... except for the sacrifice part because supposedly jesus was to stand in for the required sacrifices of the law for the people to be pure in the eyes of god, then I realized everyone was doing it wrong, well, maybe not everyone, but most. This confused me, so I decided to study for myself. I became familiar with some ancient Hebrew because the language has meanings that don't translate well into english.. I became familiar with ancient Greek... enough to also look seriously at what the original texts might have meant... I read the entire bible several times, studying each verse that didn't immediately make sense to me. Being an historian and an aficionado of mythology helped because I could see similarities in some of the stories, poetry and concepts. I asked myself why god was named "El" in the early texts, and 'yahweh' later on. The answer is very simple... because the religion EVOLVED over time with Yahweh usurping his 'father'. It's a common theme in literature and mythology.. in many cultures. Weird huh? That this supposedly 'inspired' word from god was effectively a rerun of many other myths. I realized that the NT and the OT, DO NOT AGREE in many significant ways... especially Paul's stuff. Revelations was a particular book I spent a lot of time on, being fascinated by symbolism (as an artist) The tomne of the entire book, it's literary style, does not mesh with anything else in the Bible at all.. like it was tagged on. Some of the language and symbols are similar, but those symbols were in cultural use all over the middle east at that time (Bronze Age to Turn of the Millennium). The clincher for me was the fact that christians don't seem to be any better people, generally, than any others. IF the Bible were true that would not be the case... there would be a statistically marked difference between christians and those of other faiths, or none at all. There isn't. They also don't seem to have any more 'blessings' than others... hmmmmmmm Then I studied the history of the church... OMG! It shocked and disgusted me, The christian church, both Catholic and Protestant, is the bloodiest, greediest, most immoral and horrifying institution I had ever read about. Right up there with Ghengis Khan, but at least he was honest about his agenda. They make the dictators of the past look like kittens. There is no excuse for their pathological crimes against humanity.. from the early pagans up to today. Mostly.. against their own in a lot of cases! Today it's televangelists, and doctrine that kills and dehumanizes people. It's ROBBERY, of money, of regard for human rights, of power and influence of democracy... What gets me the most about 'the church' (in this I add any leaders or institutions - not always individual christians) is their ability and propensity for deception, lies, sophistry, and downright bullshit. They are liars. THAT is the nail in the crucifix for me... because if there is an all-knowing, all-loving god somewhere, there is no way that the majority of his emissaries are morally corrupt. Some? maybe - sure.. but MOST? Makes me sick... and it's the poor, and the disenfranchised and the hopeless who suffer the most... and who are USED the most as the church's power base. That's not any 'god' I would want to worship... if he can't keep his own in line.. change them through the holy spirit, or whatever... then it's all bullshit. So.. in conclusion I have found, through study.. and OH YES! I prayed for guidance and clarity and all that. I studied with an honest heart. This is what I found... an entire 3000 years old culture of lies, and political propaganda, and horror. So if there is a 'god' (as described as a loving creator)... it's not the one spoken of in the bible - unless one wishes to see Yahweh's real nature - a bloody god of war, destruction, hatred, racism, genocide, lies and confusion. That's what's in the Bible...and that's what is being manifested through this belief, in the real world. Look around. Anyone who seriously studies the Bible.. seriously, for themselves, with an open mind, can see this. and it's chock full of fear.. and control, and it's that fear that makes it hard to let go of. The other stuff.. like science and philosophy and all that just supports the reality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 22, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 Wow, I'll really get some serious answers from this group. Ah, you have the Gift of Sarcasm. Me too. It is well that you won't find any answers here because you are not looking for answers. You seek only confirmation of what others have previously told you to believe. That can be found on various Christian forums, not a place such as this where people have actually thought about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 Angelus5370, I just read the list of things that interest you. I knew that even before I read it but it did confirm my impression of who and what you are. And that is not intended to be a negative statement and certainly not an insult. It's just an observation. Seriously, you are wasting your time here. Many of the folks that post here have probably forgotten more about the bible than you have discovered thus far. Many of us were former die hard born again fundamentalist deeply involved in our faith, our congregations, and in many cases we served at the highest levels of leadership. We didn’t walk away from Christianity because we lost our faith. We walked away from it because that day eventually came for each of us when we came to the realization that it simply didn’t make sense. I realized you don’t see the endless contradictions and inconsistencies but we did and do. Most of us have invested years in studying and researching the origins and evolution of both the bible and Christianity. Our decision to walk away form it was an informed decision not an emotional one. I also recognize that you are nowhere near where we are now. We understand you, your thinking, your beliefs and why you are so dedicated to your faith. We know because we have been where you are now but you have never been where we are now, so you cannot possibly understand where we are coming from. You are on an impossible mission. We aren’t coming back. Personally, I am not in the deconverting business. I simply don’t care what people believe when it comes to religion. I still attend church because my wife of 48 years, as of next month, continues to be a believer. I have made no effort to deconvert her, but she is aware that I am no longer a Christian. I attend church with her so she doesn’t have to go alone but it is meaningless to me. So, I hear it the bible and all that goes with it every week. It goes in one ear and out the other. I say all of that to say this to you. You words are meaningless to the folks that have deconverted. You are wasting your time here. You seem to be sincere about spreading the word. I suggest you follow the bibles instruction and seek out good soil. This is thorny ground your seed won’t grow here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Here's a few contradictions for starters: The Bible was written by imperfect humans, too. Influenced by God. Clearly you didn't even watch the video. How can you believe that the Bible was written by divine inspiration while simultaneously believing the God is not the author of confusion? And don't answer that question without watching the video. The PhD's you have so casually dismissed have done much more research on these topics than you. If you want to remain ignorant, that's fine - just don't try to pass yourself off as a person possessing some sort of wisdom. I could not watch the video because I couldn't download a flash player. I have my son working on it, because I would like to see this video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The main reason I deconverted was because I figured if there was an all-knowing god out there and the Bible was it's way of communicating to us then the Bible had to be perfect... and if I was a real devotee then I needed to study it - to 'seek' truth. There could be no 'making shit up', it's either there and god said it, or it isn't. The christians who were obviously cherry-picking annoyed me right from the start... because the Bible says they are misled if anything they do or say goes against god's word. Well.. bacon and shrimp and polyester blends screws that up right there. I took Jesus' words that not one jot would be removed from the law.. that the LAW was god's perfect way for us to live. Not the ten commandments.. the LAW (600 and something commandments) I didn't buy that gentiles were off the hook, because effectively when you choose Yahweh you are being adopted into his 'family' and that would be Israel (the original Israel - not the modern country) Once I realized that the law demanded certain behaviours... except for the sacrifice part because supposedly jesus was to stand in for the required sacrifices of the law for the people to be pure in the eyes of god, then I realized everyone was doing it wrong, well, maybe not everyone, but most. This confused me, so I decided to study for myself. I became familiar with some ancient Hebrew because the language has meanings that don't translate well into english.. I became familiar with ancient Greek... enough to also look seriously at what the original texts might have meant... I read the entire bible several times, studying each verse that didn't immediately make sense to me. Being an historian and an aficionado of mythology helped because I could see similarities in some of the stories, poetry and concepts. I asked myself why god was named "El" in the early texts, and 'yahweh' later on. The answer is very simple... because the religion EVOLVED over time with Yahweh usurping his 'father'. It's a common theme in literature and mythology.. in many cultures. Weird huh? That this supposedly 'inspired' word from god was effectively a rerun of many other myths. I realized that the NT and the OT, DO NOT AGREE in many significant ways... especially Paul's stuff. Revelations was a particular book I spent a lot of time on, being fascinated by symbolism (as an artist) The tomne of the entire book, it's literary style, does not mesh with anything else in the Bible at all.. like it was tagged on. Some of the language and symbols are similar, but those symbols were in cultural use all over the middle east at that time (Bronze Age to Turn of the Millennium). The clincher for me was the fact that christians don't seem to be any better people, generally, than any others. IF the Bible were true that would not be the case... there would be a statistically marked difference between christians and those of other faiths, or none at all. There isn't. They also don't seem to have any more 'blessings' than others... hmmmmmmm Then I studied the history of the church... OMG! It shocked and disgusted me, The christian church, both Catholic and Protestant, is the bloodiest, greediest, most immoral and horrifying institution I had ever read about. Right up there with Ghengis Khan, but at least he was honest about his agenda. They make the dictators of the past look like kittens. There is no excuse for their pathological crimes against humanity.. from the early pagans up to today. Mostly.. against their own in a lot of cases! Today it's televangelists, and doctrine that kills and dehumanizes people. It's ROBBERY, of money, of regard for human rights, of power and influence of democracy... What gets me the most about 'the church' (in this I add any leaders or institutions - not always individual christians) is their ability and propensity for deception, lies, sophistry, and downright bullshit. They are liars. THAT is the nail in the crucifix for me... because if there is an all-knowing, all-loving god somewhere, there is no way that the majority of his emissaries are morally corrupt. Some? maybe - sure.. but MOST? Makes me sick... and it's the poor, and the disenfranchised and the hopeless who suffer the most... and who are USED the most as the church's power base. That's not any 'god' I would want to worship... if he can't keep his own in line.. change them through the holy spirit, or whatever... then it's all bullshit. So.. in conclusion I have found, through study.. and OH YES! I prayed for guidance and clarity and all that. I studied with an honest heart. This is what I found... an entire 3000 years old culture of lies, and political propaganda, and horror. So if there is a 'god' (as described as a loving creator)... it's not the one spoken of in the bible - unless one wishes to see Yahweh's real nature - a bloody god of war, destruction, hatred, racism, genocide, lies and confusion. That's what's in the Bible...and that's what is being manifested through this belief, in the real world. Look around. Anyone who seriously studies the Bible.. seriously, for themselves, with an open mind, can see this. and it's chock full of fear.. and control, and it's that fear that makes it hard to let go of. The other stuff.. like science and philosophy and all that just supports the reality. Ravenstar, Very well written post and it looks like you have done a lot of research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 More than I can describe... for about 35 years. I have always been driven by seeking truth. Was born that way. I was a 'why' kid.. and I remain a 'why' person. Simple answers don't satisfy me, especially when the questions are not simple. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Angelus5370, I just read the list of things that interest you. I knew that even before I read it but it did confirm my impression of who and what you are. And that is not intended to be a negative statement and certainly not an insult. It's just an observation. Seriously, you are wasting your time here. Many of the folks that post here have probably forgotten more about the bible than you have discovered thus far. Many of us were former die hard born again fundamentalist deeply involved in our faith, our congregations, and in many cases we served at the highest levels of leadership. We didn’t walk away from Christianity because we lost our faith. We walked away from it because that day eventually came for each of us when we came to the realization that it simply didn’t make sense. I realized you don’t see the endless contradictions and inconsistencies but we did and do. Most of us have invested years in studying and researching the origins and evolution of both the bible and Christianity. Our decision to walk away form it was an informed decision not an emotional one. I also recognize that you are nowhere near where we are now. We understand you, your thinking, your beliefs and why you are so dedicated to your faith. We know because we have been where you are now but you have never been where we are now, so you cannot possibly understand where we are coming from. You are on an impossible mission. We aren’t coming back. Personally, I am not in the deconverting business. I simply don’t care what people believe when it comes to religion. I still attend church because my wife of 48 years, as of next month, continues to be a believer. I have made no effort to deconvert her, but she is aware that I am no longer a Christian. I attend church with her so she doesn’t have to go alone but it is meaningless to me. So, I hear it the bible and all that goes with it every week. It goes in one ear and out the other. I say all of that to say this to you. You words are meaningless to the folks that have deconverted. You are wasting your time here. You seem to be sincere about spreading the word. I suggest you follow the bibles instruction and seek out good soil. This is thorny ground your seed won’t grown here. Hi Geezer, Your post is very well written and filled with truth. I am not here to convert anyone, that would be illogical, but I am starting to see where you guys are coming from and understand what lead you to your decision. On the other hand, I came here to understand and in that process it actually made my faith stronger, not weaker. Everyone has been kind in letting me hang out with you all, I have received honest answers and always to the point. You all have dug and researched to make decisions that were right for you and I have to respect that. I thank you all for your time and patience. Good luck to you. Debbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelus5370 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 More than I can describe... for about 35 years. I have always been driven by seeking truth. Was born that way. I was a 'why' kid.. and I remain a 'why' person. Simple answers don't satisfy me, especially when the questions are not simple. Peace. That is surely how a person grows, is to seek answers and find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 BAA wrote... As a nurse you're trained in Anatomy, Physiology, Epidemiology, Medication Administration, Psychology, Ethics and Nursing Theory, right? Each and every one of your areas of training is underpinned by more assumptions than I can efficiently list here. Every day of your working life you've been applying these scientific assumptions without even knowing it. See? You've been trusting in the secular, agnostic assumptions of man and will continue to do so for as long as you live. BAA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelus5370 replied... Nursing does not deal with assumptions, only doctors assume by physical symptoms when they diagnose. The doctor writes the orders for treatment and we carry them out. There are no assumptions in the body's anatomy or physiology nor anything above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelus, You as a nurse may not make any assumptions, but when you carry out the doctors orders you are putting their assumptions into action - affecting the bodies, minds and lives of the patients you are treating. Thus you are still responsible for putting human assumptions into effect in your work. Simply saying, "I'm just following orders" doesn't excuse you of this responsibility. The doctors make secular, agnostic assumptions in their diagnoses and you put these assumptions into effect. Now please read all of 1 Samuel, Chapter 22 and answer me this question. Can Doeg the Edomite be excused for killing eighty-five people because he was, "Just following orders" or does he share the responsibility for their deaths with King Saul, who ordered their killing? 1 Samuel 22 : 17 & 18. 17 Then the king ordered the guards at his side: “Turn and kill the priests of the Lord, because they too have sided with David. They knew he was fleeing, yet they did not tell me.” But the king’s officials were unwilling to raise a hand to strike the priests of the Lord. 18 The king then ordered Doeg, “You turn and strike down the priests.” So Doeg the Edomite turned and struck them down. That day he killed eighty-five men who wore the linen ephod. BAA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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