Welcome To The Age Of Denial

[florduh]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/opinion/welcome-to-the-age-of-denial.html?_r=3&

 

Sad.

 

[kolaida]

Wow, I had no idea that "creation science" had legitimately made into some classrooms in the country. And I know Oregon is a progressive state, but not vaccinating their kids might be too progressive (or not really progressive at all).   It is interesting to hear that the world looked at science so much differently just in the late 80s.  

[RaLeah]

I read this link. So we're going backwards. More people believe in creationism now than decades ago. What a disappointment!

 

How do people shut their eyes forever to landslides of evidence? I mean, I grew up believing in creation as a literal 6 day event, but... once I was an adult I couldn't keep believing all that. It stopped making an ounce of sense. 

 

It only took one person to say to me, "Do you even understand the theory of evolution at all?" and I had to admit I hadn't been shown any evidence in support of it at my Christian school, and I didn't like having that gap in my knowledge, so I went to the internet to fill it in... and the rest is history. 

 

I can still feel angry about graduating from a high school that refused to teach it to us. They just set up very old straw man arguments that they easily knocked down without bothering to even attempt to refute the latest scientific discoveries. They even taught us a few "facts" that proved creationism that turned out to be hoaxes. No wonder I hated science class in high school, but I love learning about science now. 

 

I'm distressed they're trying to teach creationism in public schools. "Just teach the controversy," they say, when there IS NO scientific controversy. Evolution happened, and the fossil record definitively proves it. People just won't look at it. 

[duderonomy]

"Climate deniars". "Settled science decades ago".

 

I remember in the seventies, when we were told we were on the edge of a new ice age.

This opinion piece is sad alright.

 

Anyway, the way I was taught in public school (that's why I'm so smart!), in a nutshell: "This is how evolution works. Some people think that a god started it, and some believe that it all happened through natural forces, but this is what it is and how it works".

I thought that was a pretty good model, because it took any religion only or secular only argument out at the start, and we could just learn and cut apart frogs and stuff.

 

Just my two pence because I'm bored.

[midniterider]

And then you hear this:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/falling-away.html

 

Maybe with age people just become disillusioned no matter what their particular leaning may be. :-)

[directionless]

I think it would be interesting to delve deeper into the beliefs of the "deniers". Poll results depend on the wording of the questions and so forth.

 

For example, I have always believed in dinosaurs, homo erectus, etc. I reconciled that with the creation stories in Genesis by assuming that God did not consider humans to be humans until fairly recently (or something - I was sure there was an explanation even if I didn't have a very good one). So I would have been classified as a denier by that poll even though I've never been a denier.

 

Also, how many people classified as deniers take their kids to see the dinosaur fossils, watch movies about dinosaurs, etc? They simply say that God created humans in their current form because they think that's what they are supposed to say. It's no different from saying the Nicene Creed every week in church even though it doesn't make sense to most people.

[RaLeah]

One of the reasons I think the belief in creation is growing is this active Christian propaganda and push for home schooling and such. You know of this willingly ignorant organization? 

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

 

They built a creation museum in KY. That's right. A whole, legitimate looking museum that teaches outright lies, complete with dinosaurs and humans walking around together on earth at the same time. People who want to brainwash their kids are finding it easier thanks to organizations like this. 

 

It's a war on science and knowledge. A war on facts. And the stupid is winning. Because scientists don't have a counter-propaganda machine or funding. They aren't trying so desperately to reach ignorant people with the truth. Of course the Christians are trying to make it look like the opposite: some world-wide evolution conspiracy to trick Christians into becoming atheists, and you've gotta protect your innocent little children from their lies. 

 

Ignorance loves company. 

[florduh]

It's a war on science and knowledge. A war on facts. And the stupid is winning. Because scientists don't have a counter-propaganda machine or funding. They aren't trying so desperately to reach ignorant people with the truth.

 

Unfortunately, it's not just the Christians who deny demonstrable facts these days in order to keep their beliefs alive.

[RaLeah]

 

It's a war on science and knowledge. A war on facts. And the stupid is winning. Because scientists don't have a counter-propaganda machine or funding. They aren't trying so desperately to reach ignorant people with the truth.

 

Unfortunately, it's not just the Christians who deny demonstrable facts these days in order to keep their beliefs alive.

 

Okay, I agree that might be hyperbolic, but this AIG company puts out "creation science" journals, magazines, books, and now a museum. All of it filled with made up propaganda. They go around giving talks with PowerPoint presentations in schools and churches to make Christians feel that there's an actual scientific basis for believing the way they do, and they start this kind of indoctrination at a super young age (they have a little quiz for elementary students to take afterward--I'm not kidding.) 

 

Science researches actual evidence, and scientists get some research grants and funding, and they publish in science journals, magazines, and books and have exhibits in museums, sure; But AIG (and similar Christian businesses) gets donations to make up lies based on nothing factual at all to support a creationist position that has no evidence to support it. 

 

You don't have to call it a war on facts. But AIG does blatantly ignore facts and makes up lies designed to keep believers brainwashed and convert those who haven't paid much attention to evolution / creation one way or the other. They believe they're doing the Lord's work and it's apologetics and stuff... but it isn't science. It rejects science. 

 

I do wish real, credible scientists WOULD go around giving free talks at K-12 schools, and also could attract the equivalent of audiences the size of mega churches. 

 

I mean, can you think of an equivalent group of non-evolution-deniers that works like this, traveling around with presentations to sell the idea of evolution to the common average joe out there? I can't. 

[RaLeah]

 

It's a war on science and knowledge. A war on facts. And the stupid is winning. Because scientists don't have a counter-propaganda machine or funding. They aren't trying so desperately to reach ignorant people with the truth. 

 

Unfortunately, it's not just the Christians who deny demonstrable facts these days in order to keep their beliefs alive.

 

Ah, I just realized you MIGHT have been referring to climate-change deniers in support of big business polluters, etc. 

I was inferring that you meant me. (You can ignore my post above if you didn't.)

[stryper]

then there is this fact  

https://www.google.com/search?q=creation+museum+financial+problems&oq=creation+museum+fi&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l3.9025j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[gall]

 

It's a war on science and knowledge. A war on facts. And the stupid is winning. Because scientists don't have a counter-propaganda machine or funding. They aren't trying so desperately to reach ignorant people with the truth.

 

Unfortunately, it's not just the Christians who deny demonstrable facts these days in order to keep their beliefs alive.

 

 

Do you mean like the flat earth retards? Now that is true denial.

[RankStranger]

Most of us would like to think that our views on such things come down to facts and evidence - with emotions and personal interests playing little or no role. But that hasn't been my experience. I scoffed at the notion of global warming for quite a few years - I probably still have posts on this site railing against the idea. The fact is that I was dismissing the idea outright because I believed that people on the 'left' were inherently flawed/crazy/stupid. It's what I'd been taught all my life- an idea far more difficult for me to shake than Jesus... because it was tied in with my identity (there's a reason we talk about 'identity politics').

Only when I no longer believed the caricature did I notice the similarities between arguments against global warming and arguments against evolution. And well once I saw how similar these arguments were to something as fundamentally stupid and dishonest as creationism... I had no choice but to reconsider.

There's still plenty of room in my mind to doubt the certainty of global-warming predictions- and proposed solutions. But the fact that (a) CO2 behaves as a greenhouse gas and (b ) we're pumping billions of fuck-tons of the stuff into the atmosphere... that much can't be reasonably and honestly denied.

[florduh]

No, I wasn't referring specifically to the climate people. It's easy to point the finger at Christians around here and nobody seems to have a problem with that. My point was that scientific evidence is routinely ignored by many other people as well who have a woo belief or political agenda to maintain. This includes the anti-vaccine people, birthers, moon hoaxers, crystal healers, manifesters, reiki enthusiasts, homeopaths, etc. When it comes to people ignoring an ever increasing pool of evidence and instead seeking the most unlikely and convoluted solution to an unknown (or a conspiratorial alternative) just to have an answer, we don't have to limit our search to the Christian community.

[RaLeah]

No, I wasn't referring specifically to the climate people. It's easy to point the finger at Christians around here and nobody seems to have a problem with that. My point was that scientific evidence is routinely ignored by many other people as well who have a woo belief or political agenda to maintain. This includes the anti-vaccine people, birthers, moon hoaxers, crystal healers, manifesters, reiki enthusiasts, homeopaths, etc. When it comes to people ignoring an ever increasing pool of evidence and instead seeking the most unlikely and convoluted solution to an unknown (or a conspiratorial alternative) just to have an answer, we don't have to limit our search to the Christian community.

Oh, good. I agree. (I wasn't limiting it to climate change deniers either.)

 

That anti-vaccination thing is dangerous. I have a sister who won't vaccinate her kids. I've discussed it with her, but she's been utterly convinced that vaccines are too harmful to risk on her children. 

 

And... I have another sister who watched some documentary style program on the moon landing and she thinks the moon landing was faked. (I tried to debunk it, and she thinks now that it could have been faked, maybe was, maybe not. Ah well.)

 

I like this Time interview with Bruce Hood, who explains that the human brain seems to be wired to be superstitious:

 

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1890165,00.html 

 

But being aware of this, it helps us remember to stop and think before we fall for a conspiracy theory or feelings of luck or superstition. 

[kolaida]

I don't understand why people are not comprehending how lucky we are to have vaccines. I mean, all that hard work and research done by who knows how many research teams/scientists and now it's just being basically spat at and now sicknesses that are perfectly preventable are popping up- you know, it's small now, the "outbreaks" but if this keeps up, the outbreaks are going to get bigger, more frequent and widespread and, ugh! How frustrating!!  What part of preventative care don't people understand?! 

 

And why do people think it's so impossible that we went to the moon? I mean, geeze, we're not living in the Dark Ages anymore. This IS the Information Age. 

 

I don't know anything about the reiki or crystal healers (crystal healers really left me going "huh?").  

[amateur]

Vaccines are good.  I am very glad I never had to worry about my children getting polio and other debilitating diseases.  They are now healthy, young adults.  My daughter got the HPV vaccine about four years ago.  As cancer, including cervical, runs in my family, and I've watched relatives die horribly of it, I'm glad for a vaccine that can help.

 

I was listening to a religious radio program the other day, and they had kids ages 8-12 on to ask questions of the "experts."  The kids asked all the big questions (i.e., why is there suffering?) and got all the trite answers (i.e., we suffer because of our free willl and sin and suffering is god's way of teaching us to live right) and no real answers (like, come on, earthquakes and tsunamis are NOT caused by free will and sin and they cause untold, relentless, unimaginable suffering).  One kid asked about dinosaurs and Noah and the "expert" informed him that indeed dinosaurs were around when Noah built the ark but god chose for Noah not to take them because god knew T Rexes were too dangerous around people.  Just where did this "expert" get the inside knowledge on what "god knew"?  And why wouldn't "god know" that millions of human deaths would be caused by fleas (black plague) and mosquitos (malaria) which he obviously was happy to have on the ark?  The "expert" also told the kids that we do have dinosaurs around still because that's what alligators and crocodiles are.  Ummm, no.

 

I felt bad for the kids because they were asking very earnest questions and getting trite answers and lies.  Kids that age, in general, want to believe the adults in their lives, and that's where they have to begin twisting their brains around those lies about suffering and sin and arks and dinosaurs.  And that's where they learn to start shutting down actual facts in lieu of twisted lies and trite answers, and creationism.

[kolaida]

Vaccines are good.  I am very glad I never had to worry about my children getting polio and other debilitating diseases.  They are now healthy, young adults.  My daughter got the HPV vaccine about four years ago.  As cancer, including cervical, runs in my family, and I've watched relatives die horribly of it, I'm glad for a vaccine that can help.

 

I was listening to a religious radio program the other day, and they had kids ages 8-12 on to ask questions of the "experts."  The kids asked all the big questions (i.e., why is there suffering?) and got all the trite answers (i.e., we suffer because of our free willl and sin and suffering is god's way of teaching us to live right) and no real answers (like, come on, earthquakes and tsunamis are NOT caused by free will and sin and they cause untold, relentless, unimaginable suffering).  One kid asked about dinosaurs and Noah and the "expert" informed him that indeed dinosaurs were around when Noah built the ark but god chose for Noah not to take them because god knew T Rexes were too dangerous around people.  Just where did this "expert" get the inside knowledge on what "god knew"?  And why wouldn't "god know" that millions of human deaths would be caused by fleas (black plague) and mosquitos (malaria) which he obviously was happy to have on the ark?  The "expert" also told the kids that we do have dinosaurs around still because that's what alligators and crocodiles are.  Ummm, no.

 

I felt bad for the kids because they were asking very earnest questions and getting trite answers and lies.  Kids that age, in general, want to believe the adults in their lives, and that's where they have to begin twisting their brains around those lies about suffering and sin and arks and dinosaurs.  And that's where they learn to start shutting down actual facts in lieu of twisted lies and trite answers, and creationism.

 

After reading this, it kind of hit me.  We wonder why our humankind has taken so long to progress or even why, now, we sometimes have humans fighting progress? Children being told lies and given dumbed down answers for generations.  Probably not just in relation to Christianity, either. This really is sad. I remember programs like that as a kid. I remember reading about how God thought dinosaurs were too dangerous, lol. Why bother making them? 

[amateur]

I wonder if lots of people cling to those lies and dumbed down answers for life after being taught them as children because there is a point where if you admitted you had been lied to by adults and had let yourself believe such obvious lies, then it would make you feel really really dumb?  The older you get the more you have to twist your mind around the answers because when a little kid asks about suffering it probably has something to do with a broken leg and when you grow up you realize real suffering is horrific and unimaginable and is absolutely not caused by anything anybody did and trying to twist the answer to fit some loving god takes such mental gymnastics that to admit you were duped is probably impossible for most people.

 

I felt pretty dumb when I truly quit believing and when I thought about my own mental gymnastics.  I got over it.  The truth is still better than lies.

[Guest Marty]

But how can belief in creationism be growing when "no religious affiliation" is also growing, and at a faster pace than Islam or christianity?  Perhaps this is due to people still believing but not claiming a brand, but this will be a good thing.  The longer you are away from a pulpit, the more and more ridiculous church things are.  They may say they believe creationism now, but if they are left to their own minds and values, they should see the man behind the curtain in a few years.  Hopefully...

[hereticzero]

Public opinions are often influenced by the daily news, such as Fox News, and their brand of 'experts'. Just like Christian preaching, what is heard the most or the loudest is what people come to believe as true even if the info they get is false. That is propaganda. A person will not change their way of thinking unless they have a moment of self-discovery in which they suddenly believe they have been taken in by the propaganda and want to change their way of thinking. It's just so much easier to believe in magic than in science.

[gall]

Public opinions are often influenced by the daily news, such as Fox News, and their brand of 'experts'. Just like Christian preaching, what is heard the most or the loudest is what people come to believe as true even if the info they get is false. That is propaganda. A person will not change their way of thinking unless they have a moment of self-discovery in which they suddenly believe they have been taken in by the propaganda and want to change their way of thinking. It's just so much easier to believe in magic than in science.

 

Really??? I find it much much easier to believe in science. I don't have to use faith or be in fear. I don't have to guess or speculate in ways that I never will seek real proof for. I can be certain that I know or do not know and there is no question that I do not know it all. In magic you have to use fear to accept you cannot understand that thing and let it have power over you. I choose reason that is all.

[stryper]

you are not most sheeple, gall.