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Do you think abortion is wrong?


bluewizard

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I flatly refuse to condone abortion in cases where the mom-to-be just was too fucking lazy to use contraception and now wants to get rid off the pesky child to party on.

Well, and in related cases where she knew that the dad-to-be could have used a rubber but was too lazy... and where she still spread for him.

 

Yea, but say the woman "got pregnant", but used the morning-after pill? Or say 6 weeks into her pregnancy she finds out and wants it gone? Hmmm??? Do you say as an absolute that because she was too fucking lazy that she should "live with the consequences"?

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What do you think of this issue as an ex-christian?

 

As is so often the case in real life (i. e. outside of the nice black-or-white fundie dreamland), there are pro's and con's to abortion.

I fully support abortion when the mother's life is in danger otherwise, or when the baby will have a life expectancy in the "very low" range and much suffering ahead due to a genetic defect et cetera.

I'd have to decide on a case-by-case basis if abortion is considered due to social problems... say, a young lady up over her head in school et cetera will have to choose to either have the baby or work on having some decent chances in life (you know, something other than housewife for life).

I flatly refuse to condone abortion in cases where the mom-to-be just was too fucking lazy to use contraception and now wants to get rid off the pesky child to party on.

Well, and in related cases where she knew that the dad-to-be could have used a rubber but was too lazy... and where she still spread for him.

 

I understand what you are saying here, but if they aren't responsible enough to use birth control are they going to be responsible and mature enough to take care of another person?

 

I used to be a very rabid pro-lifer. Now that I have kids, I know how demanding it is to be an even decent parent. It takes all of who you are and then some. They suck everything out of you and don't give anything back. If there isn't much depth to you then you can't give of yourself to your child. The child will suffer and have issues and problems the rest of their life, and so the cycle will continue.

 

Taph

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I firmly believe that men and women need to have every option available to them when it comes to family planning. That includes birth control, abortion, abstinence, medical care for STD's, adoption, and the like. I am a stauch advocate of both sex ed and free and easy access to birth control of all kinds. I also firmly believe that no child should come into this world unwanted and unloved, and that the quality of a child's life far outweighs the quantity of existing at all. (If that makes sense.)

 

It makes sense to me - well-said :) And that goes for the morning-after pill, too - that should be just as available.

 

As is so often the case in real life (i. e. outside of the nice black-or-white fundie dreamland), there are pro's and con's to abortion.

I fully support abortion when the mother's life is in danger otherwise, or when the baby will have a life expectancy in the "very low" range and much suffering ahead due to a genetic defect et cetera.

I'd have to decide on a case-by-case basis if abortion is considered due to social problems... say, a young lady up over her head in school et cetera will have to choose to either have the baby or work on having some decent chances in life (you know, something other than housewife for life).

I flatly refuse to condone abortion in cases where the mom-to-be just was too fucking lazy to use contraception and now wants to get rid off the pesky child to party on.

Well, and in related cases where she knew that the dad-to-be could have used a rubber but was too lazy... and where she still spread for him.

 

I agree completely. If there is a good and valid reason, then I think abortion is acceptable. If the mother was just too lazy or irresponsible to keep her legs closed, then too bad. From a totally nonreligious perspective, I can see how dangerous it can be if we make human life too disposable. To be too free to give out the death penalty can be just as dangerous, as an aside. Killing off the unwanted when they are not yet born can and will lead to killing off the unwanted when they're alive, as we all know human nature will let something snowball like that. Carry the child and give it up for adoption if all goes well, and the lesson learned will not be quick to fade, unless the mother is stupid as well as lazy. If we let society become a place where every little mistake is cleaned up instead of dealt with naturally, then we will have a society with no responsibility at all.

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I'm actually somewhat iffy about cases of rape - on one hand, I can see how the woman sure as hell didn't want to be raped and impregnated and shouldn't be forced into carrying another man's child, but on the other hand can see how it isn't the child's fault the woman got raped in the first place. That one isn't easily handled by an umbrealla yea or nay vote, I think.

 

 

Speaking from a Women's POV. There is NO way in Hell I'd keep a deranged evil persons "Seed". I wouldn't view it as a child or even a human,(because it's not, it's a potential human much like a seed isn't a flower) I'd view it as an invasion into my body and would remove it with out question asap. Rape is a vile evil act, Guilt tripping a rape victim into possibly carrying a sicko's child is another evil act in my opinion. I know many people in the Pro-Life camp that happen to belong to the Cult of Christianity would say that the rape was some how gods will because of the fetus. :Wendywhatever:

 

 

 

I may have rights over my own body also but I can't go do what I want with it, like use it to kill someone or steal things, for example. In terms of how we ought to treat our fellow human beings in regards to simple respect and fairness, we don't have the right to do as we wish. Reason alone tells us that.

 

 

:twitch: Stealing, and Murdering someone is an aggressive act against another individual this argument has zero merit. If a fetus can't live outside of the host then it is only a potential person. Every action and choice that host makes during the entire 9 months affects the fetus. The Host is in control of the fetus until it can sustain it's own life. A Host can also choose not to be a host if they can't do it. As much as you may disagree, I do have the right to do as I wish with my own body, so long as I don't infringe on the lives around me. There are millions of people on this planet who are starving, dieing from exposure, homeless so on and so forth. Not many bat an eye at the people already here who are suffering. My question is how come the anti-abortionists have such a long thought out process about a potential life that doesn't exist yet, then once that life exists they forgot about it. Then they turn around and encourage more to be born to that type of life. :Doh:

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, abortion should be judged on a case-by-case basis, in terms of how we view it. Every person is different, and what is acceptable for one may not be so for another. We shouldn't be pro-life without exception nor pro-choice without exception; we have to be flexible and realize that everything does not fall neatly into place all the time.

 

ahh, but who's going to do the Judging is the question? I do have strong Feelings toward this particular issue. I am also a mother of 4 kids, and have never had an abortion. That being said, in the case of rape or something I wouldn't think twice about it. I think most people know what's good for themselves, I trust people to have discernment and responsibility when it come to their own actions and choices and particular shoes they are walking in. I love the saying to the Bible thumpers, Keep your bible off my body! :grin: It's a hard issue I know. No matter what the issue, I'll almost always vote for the Freedom option.

 

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Wow, I guess as Moms we see things totally different. It might take all of who we are but as far as "they suck everything out of you and don't get anything back" that isn't true in my case. My children give me joy and laughter and love and compassion and help around the house and give me interesting and fun and creative ideas, they don't suck anything out of me. They give back what they can and I look forward to all the trials and tribulations with them regardless of how good or bad.

 

As far as abortion, I no longer think it's my place to say whether it is right or wrong...it's up to the mom but as far as partial birth? I say with no regret...fucking murder and "no" that it should not be legal UNLESS the mom's life is at risk.

 

Edited: Even partial birth abortion at the risk of moms health bothers me because the baby feels pain...it's hard for me to accept that this is ever okay but I certainly would never judge one for it. In the case of just waiting and not knowing whether or not to have the baby...I see no right in partial birth at all, they should have had it done sooner and I do see it as murder. It's just fucking cruel.

 

There are positives in having kids. However, I've been a divorced, single mom of three kids without any real support from anyone for a very long time. Even when you have the best of circumstances it's still hard. When the kids were little, it was a lot of work but a lot of fun. I was in my early thirties when became a single mom. I could not imagine having to do it if I were younger.

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Taph, you inspire me to apologize to my mother for being the brat that I was up until....well....that I currently am.

 

I do see a little hypocracy from women who are older have husbands, established careers, etc. I hear "I used to be pro-choice, but as I got older, I realized how precoius life is," or a statement that ties in the life lessons learned as a mother. I noticed that the majority of women at abortion clinics are really young - look about college age and under. I wonder if the pro-lifers would feel differently if they returned to the uncertaint existence of a 15-25 year old?

 

There are a lot of people who have no faith in the adoption system. Some people feel they would be putting their children into a horrible situation if they gave it up for adoption, and would rather not put their child through the awful existence of being an unwanted child in foster care.

 

Also, can we please look beyond the "if she can't keep her legs closed..." statement. How the hell does it benifit the kid if their slutty mother was forced to keep the kid she did not want?

 

 

 

maslow_hierarchy.gif

 

 

 

Most know what this is. Hierarchy of needs. Please tell me how unwanted children will have these needs met?

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This is just my opinion and means nothing in terms of the real debate. I actually have resolved the abortion issue for myself by getting a vasectomy. I will never have to choose or participate in the choice.

 

I did my part, too Lloyd. Had two kids, and then made sure I fired nothing but blanks now for the last 20 years.

 

One of the more intelligent moves I've made in my lifetime.

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i'm rabidly pro-choice.

(i also piss off other pro-choicers, sometimes, because i think abortions should be easier to obtain, no waiting period, etc.)

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Edited: Even partial birth abortion at the risk of moms health bothers me because the baby feels pain...it's hard for me to accept that this is ever okay but I certainly would never judge one for it. In the case of just waiting and not knowing whether or not to have the baby...I see no right in partial birth at all, they should have had it done sooner and I do see it as murder. It's just fucking cruel.

 

just as an fyi, "partial birth" abortions (which is not even an official name.. i *think* it's d&c) happen in ~1 % or .01%, i forget which. and those are pretty much only done when it is discovered that the fetus has a problem. i can't recall ever reading about a woman who just decided to get get an abortion done at 8 months, without having medical reasons.

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Thanks Dianka. However, I have to say I'm pro-choice not because I know how hard and demanding it is to be a parent. When I de-converted from Christianity, I realized that I was pro-life because I had believed what my religion said. I wanted to know for myself where I stood on an issue that I was very inflamed about.

I decided that I would be open, honest, and objective. I read everything I could about both sides of the issue. I learned that pro-life, like Christianity, isn't always honest and makes things up or exploits situations and are not truthful about it, like partial birth abortion. In effect, they lie and twist things around.

Pro-choice isn't always honest either, however, what they exaggerate are numbers and statistics but not by a lot.

What it came down to for me was science. When it is a person in the physiological sense, not the philosophocal sense. It begins to occur around 22 weeks, before that it's in a reptilian state with no brainwave functioning.

 

Taph

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From a totally nonreligious perspective, I can see how dangerous it can be if we make human life too disposable. To be too free to give out the death penalty can be just as dangerous, as an aside. Killing off the unwanted when they are not yet born can and will lead to killing off the unwanted when they're alive, as we all know human nature will let something snowball like that.

 

1. Why should human life be considered any more important than any other life on the planet?

2. Killing off the unwanted would ease a lot of burdens for a lot of people if done responsibly and with a certain degree of compassion.

 

Obviously you couldn't give the responsibility for these choices to the government or to any religious group without a certain amount of maturation on both of their parts (we're heading away from that just as fast as we can right now, but who knows what the future may bring?), but as far as I'm concerned, when I'm a senile old fuck sitting around soiling my didies waiting to die, just fucking kill me. The person who I was is gone, what's there is the limited biological functioning of a obsolete organic machine so unplug it.

 

The same thing for invalids, no matter their age. If their family no longer wants the responsibility for caring for them, see ya. Out. Done. Fin.

 

And violent criminals? Why the hell not? If 1) They have been proven to be guilty, 2) They have no other skills to contribute to society, and 3) They have a history of violence... then strap 'em down and send 'em on their merry way.

 

I'm not trying to be callous here, but abortion is just the easiest one of these decisions to debate because no one wants to think of "babies" being killed.

 

Well, why the hell not? Babies die all the time in developing countries and no one in America gives a shit if it's going to put them out a few bucks or some of their precious time.

 

But, I digress...

 

Abortion is the symptom, not the problem. The problem is money and the solution is education.

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Yea, but say the woman "got pregnant", but used the morning-after pill?

 

I wouldn't consider that to be an abortion. There isn't exactly much to abort in that case.

 

Or say 6 weeks into her pregnancy she finds out and wants it gone? Hmmm???

 

To also refer to the good point Taph made just below your posting, if that lady seems to be capable of raising the child decently then I'd say "no abortion there mylady". Of course if she's a totally irresponsible twit things get difficult.

 

Granted that there's always some difficult cases, no matter where you define your limits...

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Taph, I didn't mean to say you were pro-choice because being a parent is stressful. As a matter of fact, I would find it funny if someone advocated abortion because their kids were a pain in the ass. But then there is a very good possibility that I may have vacuous holes in my brain where there should be a lobe. It sure would explain my sense of humor.

 

It seems that the choicees are dragged through the mud too much about the partial birth abortion thing.

 

I am done with this thread. People have talked about abortion, bomb out of protest, cried about it, preached against it, theoretically picked it apart, and we have looked from a million different perspectives. What I know is that the sanctioned abortion is no different that the scolded abortion. These women do not want the child. No matter how analytical the box for the bad abortions is, that box will always unfairly include people who will suffer. The mother "pays" for her errant ways. So does the child.

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I was just explaining why I'm pro-choice and how it has nothing to do with me being a single mom.

Thanks for feeling that way about your mom, though. It gives me hope for my ungrateful brat teens. If I would have understood that my beautiful loving babies would turn into teenagers. I would not have been so eager to have them.

 

Taph

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I was just explaining why I'm pro-choice and how it has nothing to do with me being a single mom.

Thanks for feeling that way about your mom, though. It gives me hope for my ungrateful brat teens. If I would have understood that my beautiful loving babies would turn into teenagers. I would not have been so eager to have them.

 

Taph

 

Taph, believe me when I say this. I was a wretchedly horrible teenager to my mother. That poor woman had to pick me up from the discipline office many times - and the stories that were associated to my ending up in the school's police department, GOD! And what made it worse was that she was raising the four of us alone on 25k a year! I was a real shit, no doubt about it.

 

But around 17 I started easing up on her a bit. I still give her shit these days, but things have calmed down out of empathy. Teenage rebellion and angst doesn't last forever. Not that things will ever get to something out of Seventh Heaven, but kids calm down for the most part.

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I suppose it depends not on the environment, but the individual. And I really mean that because my sis and I have had carbon copy lives. We are identical twins. Had the exact same upbringing. She was concerned with getting in trouble, and would be really cautious when she was doing something bad. Me? Shit. I was found passed out in a cemetary with a bottle of Vodka next to me when I was 14. I was not at all concerned with the trouble my actions got me into.

 

I also had a friend who lived in a multi-million dollar house on the Gold Coast in Chicago. Her parents were well off, but wise. They made sure she had a good life but would not spoil her. Everything she needed was provided for her, and she was like 15 times worse than I was. Sometimes it all comes down to the luck of the draw.

 

But, that would be a nature/nurture discussion. Sorry, finished with this thread nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnow.

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if that lady seems to be capable of raising the child decently then I'd say "no abortion there mylady". Of course if she's a totally irresponsible twit things get difficult.

 

But then we move from choice....there's not much difference between a newly fertilized egg and a few collection of cells 6 weeks into term.

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To also refer to the good point Taph made just below your posting, if that lady seems to be capable of raising the child decently then I'd say "no abortion there mylady". Of course if she's a totally irresponsible twit things get difficult.

 

 

i can't imagine ever telling a woman she can't get an abortion; forced pregnancy and childbirth seems a horrible thing to do to someone, whether or not they used birth control (and hey, it does fail...)

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To also refer to the good point Taph made just below your posting, if that lady seems to be capable of raising the child decently then I'd say "no abortion there mylady". Of course if she's a totally irresponsible twit things get difficult.

 

 

i can't imagine ever telling a woman she can't get an abortion; forced pregnancy and childbirth seems a horrible thing to do to someone, whether or not they used birth control (and hey, it does fail...)

 

Exactly....how are you going to determine whether or not it was a failed contraceptive or just laziness? There's no way to prove it.

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In my area you only hear one side of the story and that's the pro-life side. I believe I'm pro-choice because if I got a girl pregnant I'd definitely want her to have an abortion and its not murder like some pro-lifers say. What do you think of this issue as an ex-christian?

 

Then my question to these pro-lifer is that "isn't contraception murder?"

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Also, I don't think it will be possible to significantly lower the number of abortions without taking a look at society. It drives me crazy that conservatives like to waive the pro-life flag...while turning away from the women who feel that they cannot financially support their children if they should choose to have them. Furthermore, there is still a seriously negative stigma associated with being single and pregnant...much less actually having the child. Some people just don't want to deal with it...and while men can impregnate hundreds of women without a single person knowing unless he tells them....its a little more obvious for a woman.

 

Pro-lifers are such hypocrites....they want to "give life a chance" and give rights to bunched up cells, yet most are pro-war, where pregnant women and children are blasted by the thousands....the most evil of ironies.

 

Taph, I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. Your honesty is very refreshing. I have a five year old (I'm 27), and he was unplanned. I just fell in love with him the minute I found out. It was difficult; his father and I just broke up last July (he wasn't too happy with my whole being a lesbian and all) and it's even harder now. I don't regret having him. I'd never known love like that before. I'm sure you know what I mean. When he was three we found out we were pregnant. His father and I were both in college and living in a two bedroom basement apartment. Our decision came quickly; we terminated and I don't regret it. I had to give myself a chance to be a mom to my son and to build a life outside the basement. I can't imagine being a single mom to two small children, let alone a bunch of teenagers. I admire you!

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Thanks, non-conformist!

 

I had to send the oldest to her father, for similar reasons as Dianka said. Since he's had her, he seems to be really nice to me. He has even called me exasperated, asking me to talk some sense into her after being picked up for shop lifting even though he gave her spending money. He has a large extended family with a support system who helps him with her nor he doesn't work and he still can't control her.

 

Partial Birth Abortion is a rarely used procedure. It is used mostly for hydroencephalitis, where the fetus brain is unusually large (22 inches circumferance is not unheard of) and delivery would be harmful to the mother. The doctor will reconstitute the head, and give the baby to the mother after the procedure so they may start the grieving process. Most doctors who proform this procedure also work closely with funeral homes so the child can be buried. For pro-life to use this procedure to further their own agenda is horrific and unethical.

 

A woman who is beyond 6 months cannot walk into an abortion clinic and get an abortion. There has to be a valid verifiable medical reason from other doctors. There are ethics panels that hold doctors accountable. It is also very difficult to get any kind of abortion past 14 weeks, since it's a lot more expensive of a procedure ($1200 and up) and there are not very many doctors willing to proform them.

 

Taph

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But then we move from choice....there's not much difference between a newly fertilized egg and a few collection of cells 6 weeks into term.

 

As I said before, there's always some problems left, no matter how you twist and turn it... ;)

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But then we move from choice....there's not much difference between a newly fertilized egg and a few collection of cells 6 weeks into term.

 

As I said before, there's always some problems left, no matter how you twist and turn it... ;)

 

And that's where you can't just say "it's wrong" or "it's right" and you can't just say "if she's too 'lazy' she should blah blah blah...."

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AMEN, SERENITY!

 

As much as I say I prefer to have civil discourse...I think this is an occasion for me to digress.

 

The only people who say stuff like, "that woman should have kept her legs closed" or "if she spread anyway," insinuating that the bulk of responsibility for reproduction and child rearing lies solely with the woman...well, you must be thinking with your dick instead of your head. I cannot believe that anyone with half a brain would say something so illogical...birth control and sexual relations are not that simple. Women feel guilted by men who don't want to use condoms, they sometimes get involved in abusive relationships, emotionally or physically, and don't feel like they have the ability to protest.

 

There are also women who do everything possible to avoid a pregnancy, birth control, condoms, etc, and STILL get pregnant. And they don't want a kid. That simple. You cannot reasonably FORCE a woman to host another life form for 9 months, which impacts THEIR life only, not a man's, and enjoy it. I swear, I would throw myself down a flight of stairs before carrying a baby to term that I didn't want to have.

 

Use your goddamn head. Don't say idiotic things about spreading legs. Otherwise...you make me believe that you should be castrated so no woman ever "spreads" for you again.

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