I Get It

[seeker001]

Your posts come across as very confrontational and unclear.  I would go as far as to say hostile even such as your "punkass" thread and using your CAPSLOCK. If you want people to treat you with respect, than you need to show respect on your end. In other words, follow the golden rule. It is not entirely about the label, but mostly with regards to how you present yourself. For example, end3 is a Christian but he has shown himself to be a decent individual and therefore treated as such. Yes, Christians are going to be treated with more suspicion, but that is to be expected from a site such as this.  So take an extra minute to think, "How can people misinterpret my post?" because it is much harder to get a gauge on the intent since we can't use body language or voice tone to help with clarification. All we have are the words on the page and our own judgement. 

 

Just a friendly word of word of advice, I mean you no harm.

[CliffordStamper]

Hello All,

 

I see my status has been changed.  I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word.,

 

As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works."

 

R S,

 

I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian..  What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie..

 

Sincerely

Cliff

[CliffordStamper]

Seeker,

Just a friendly word of advice, I mean you no harm.

 

Thanks ,  I will do my best to build some bridges and repair the ones I scorched.

 

Sincerely

Cliff

[RaLeah]

So Cliff, you believe in God, but not so much in church doctrine and not so much in organized religion? 

 

I have a younger sister (married with kids) who stopped going to church for that reason. She and her husband sometimes have a bible study with a small group of like-minded people in each others' homes. They like that much better. 

 

I have an older sister who is a progressive Christian, and she found a Presbyterian church that she likes. Not all are the same, but her church is welcoming to everyone, doubters and agnostics and believers alike, and no one makes anyone feel bad for believing any way they do. It's just a warm community of supportive and non-judgmental people. She likes being part of a church because she'd miss the choir music and the friendships if she didn't attend. She enjoys the church experience. 

 

I hope you find what you're looking for--it can be lonely being around people who don't accept you for who you are, who don't understand you, or don't like anyone who believes differently than they do. Maybe you'll find some friends here on ex-C.

 

Regardless, I hope you can find a sense of community and understanding where your questions and your input is welcome.

 

I wish you lots of love, joy, and peace. 

[Sybaris]

I had to step back to read that.  Wow, big letters.  Were you talking about yourself? 

.

 

I think we have a winner

 

it has been my experience that those who talk the loudest have the most to hide.

[R. S. Martin]

 

 

I did not say one word about going back to Christianity, I haven't said that anywhere in this forum. And I won't  Had I not been labeled "Authentic Christian Believer" when I signed  up here you all would have taken this thread a whole lot different    It's OK    Only an idiot would open a hornets nest and not know they will get a sting or two.

 

I won't argue / debate the bible, not with anyone. I won't argue/debate Doctrine.. I have not and will not defend any part of Christianity. Show me one place where I have and I'll leave!!!

 

 

So who decides that your God is the God of the Bible?  Who filled in that value?

 

 

That, and his first post in this thread, told me he's a True Believer. I don't understand why he doesn't have one of those signs on his avatar. Seems he had one but got it removed. I wonder to what purpose, since he's so obviously still a believer. He says so above his picture and below it.

[R. S. Martin]

 

Is the christian label truly not appropriate?  Why not (I mean, you do have "god of the bible" listed)?  How do your beliefs differ from a billion or so fools who call themselves 'christian'?

Hello All,

 

I see my status has been changed.  I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word.,

 

As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works."

 

R S,

 

I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian..  What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie..

 

Sincerely

Cliff

 

Looks to me like for all intents and purposes you are a Christian but for some reason that suits your tastes you reject the name.

 

If it looks like a Christian, walks like a Christian, talks like a Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

Put another way: If it carries avatars like a Christian, professes the God of the Christian, and argues like the Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

If it's not a Christian but looks, talks, and walks like one, I'm apt to treat it like one.

[flockoff]

...

[BendyLine]

Yeah, I've been reading all this from my phone (where Christian tags are not shown) and I've gotta say, the stuff you're saying sounds pretty damn Christian-y.

[RaLeah]

Yeah, I've been reading all this from my phone (where Christian tags are not shown) and I've gotta say, the stuff you're saying sounds pretty damn Christian-y.

 

Maybe the better term for Cliff is "believer." If "follower of Christ" or "Christ-like" or the original term meaning "little Christ" is too strong of a definition or it associates him with people who call themselves "Christians" but don't live it, I think "I believe in the God of the Bible" pretty much indicates he's a believer, but he feels uncomfortable with the rigid idea of what "Christian" means. That's okay.

 

But I respect people who are looking, searching, talking, and even provoking, because it shows they're not content with how things are. And that's the first step in finding the truth. A general feeling that something is off, but not yet sure what. That's where I began my own knowledge quest. Cliff might end up somewhere else. He might stay a believer, he might de-convert, he might re-convert, he might re-join a church. Who knows?

 

But right now he's going through a time of introspection, and I respect that. Because it's hard. He's reaching out, trying to find out what's out there, what is true, what people are like, how we behave, how others behave. He tests and pokes and prods. He's looking for something. I like it when people are looking instead of blindly accepting and sleepwalking through their lives.

 

I like Cliff. I said before he reminds me of myself when I was going through my own deep questioning. I think it does all of us good--and him too--if we invite questioners. And I think he reminds us to be civil and kind to everyone, whether they agree with us or not. Again, it doesn't matter if he thinks like us or like Christians or like someone else--he's thinking. I can tell he's thinking. And that's good and should be encouraged. There are a lot of churches that try to tell you that thinking is bad. They don't want you to question anything, just obey. You remember? There's a hymn "Trust and Obey" that really drives that idea home. 

 

Suffer the questioners to come to us, and forbid them not. For such is the community of those who find the truth. (To co-opt a Bible verse.)

 

You know, Cliff might very well just get tired of popping in here, and maybe he might rejoin a church and dismiss all of us here at ex-C, but if we treat him with kindness, maybe some day when other people around him are saying, "Atheists just want to be sinful and they hate God and they hate Christians and they're mean!" he'll remember being here and reading our stories, and he'll say, "No, I don't think all atheists are just people who rebelled, and they aren't mean--some of them are really kind and good people. I think a lot of them had legitimate reasons for leaving, and they aren't bad people. They just believe differently." Because that's how it is.

 

Maybe he'll even get to challenge some of the doctrines in the church and change some minds about things they're doing that hurt and damage other people. Who knows? I have a Christian sister who is determined to help change the church from within. I can't do that, because I can't believe any of it, but I'm glad for people like her. There needs to be more people in the church who question and challenge and call out the wrong stuff in there. People who can make the churches better. People who can add their voice to the scared and close-minded people who try to suppress the questioners. I respect those people who stand up and raise questions in their churches. And they do exist. I wish there were more of them.

 

(And good luck to you, Cliff. I hope you find what you seek, whatever it is.)

[Guest]

 

I'm not sure what this is about. Yes, for most people who leave the faith there is an anger phase. People are angry at being duped, and they are angry at themselves for falling for it. We get over it. I doubt anyone would leave their god simply because of individuals in a particular congregation. We leave because we have learned too much about the core of the belief system. We discovered that it is bunk. Ultimately, we are much happier living in reality as opposed to ancient superstition. Those who consider this their mission field and attempt to drag us back to the insanity are not met with a smile and open arms.

 

The Bible is the basis for Christianity, and upon examination, it is unreliable for many reasons. The various competing doctrines that grow out of various interpretations of that flawed book are based on a muddy mythology. Christianity is pervasive, but it is at its core, crap. We can, however, wise up and get over it. Can you?

I did not say one word about going back to Christianity, I haven't said that anywhere in this forum. And I won't  Had I not been labeled "Authentic Christian Believer" when I signed  up here you all would have taken this thread a whole lot different    It's OK    Only an idiot would open a hornets nest and not know they will get a sting or two.

 

I won't argue / debate the bible, not with anyone. I won't argue/debate Doctrine.. I have not and will not defend any part of Christianity. Show me one place where I have and I'll leave!!!

 

You dont have to say one word about going back to christianity, we still know that is why you are here.  Don't forget, most of us are EX christians, we have heard all the tripe and been taught the tricks of evangelism before.  For instance, I was taught as a teen that the first step to evangelizing is to become freinds with your target, you gain their trust.  Your post was a thinly veiled attempt to make us feel like you "understand" where we are coming from, and that would open the door for discussion.  However, your insular worldview does not prepare you for the fact we have been where you were before.

 

Either that, or you are secretly deconverting yourself and have come here to study the other side's arguments covertly and under the cover of a believing christian.

 

*EDIT**

 

I posted the above before I finished reading the thread, but after his avatar had already been changed.  You sound like a typical christian to me, and I agree with Ruby; if you profess belief in the christian god and read their holy book, guess what you are?

 

I think christians are realizing that word is become a pejorative again, and I predict we will see a lot more of them shunning the label much like they currently shun the word "religion" in favor of "relationship".  christians love to redefine words so they fit with their view of the world, and Im sorry, but I think you are trying to do this here.  

 

I used to tell my mom I wasn't running in the house, I was walking fast, or that my sister ran into my fist.  She didn't buy it.

[florduh]

If he doesn't consider himself a Christian, then I guess he isn't one. Christians can't stop talking about Christ, but it seems he doesn't put any faith in the character of Christ, just the Bible - whatever that means. We'll see.

[Geezer]

I don't remember all the questions when I signed on here, but this thread has uncovered something I think probably should be addressed. It has already been noted by others that believing in the God of the bible doesn't automatically make someone a Christian. I think there is general agreement that a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is Divine and is worshipped as God because that doctrine indicates He is God incarnate.

 

Deists, for example, believe in a creator (god) but reject all revealed sacred text and do not recognize Jesus as being in any way divine. Additionally, there is a general realization that de-converting is a process and often occurs in distinct stages. Deism, or something like that, is often one of those stages.

 

The posts in this thread indicate checking the box that a person believes in the god of the bible automatically labels them christian. The simple solution would seem to be to just change the question and ask "Are you a Christian" yes or no. That would eliminate all the ambiguities.

[gall]

      I get  it. . .   You've been hurt. . . Your angry and not without reason,  Who wouldn't be!!!! You kept stepping out in (faith) and getting knocked down.  They say if you let them in (it )will help you. You let them in (Spill your guts). You tell them about your life your doubts and fears and they say your problem is you.   You sin , your gay,  you have sex out side of marriage, You associate with "Bad" people.  You don't tithe. You don't  follow their rules.  They judge and / or reject you.

   In many cases it is as painful as loosing a loved one. A spouse or child. And the years ,maybe decades of your life  wasted, stolen, lost.  .

 

I have been there done that, bought the shirt and have the scares to prove it. I know what it's like ,so angry you want to swing at something. But what?

 

It's People?? It's book????  That changes nothing  In fact it just makes it worse.  

 

You need somebody, anybody  to hear you ,feel your pain tell you it's going to be better It's going to be alright

 

It's going to be better ... It's going to get better.  It will be alright down the road. But you have to get past the anger   Not for IT    Not for them,    but for yourself.

 

 

       Sincerly  Yours

     Cliff Stamper 

 

yeah ok...

 

At least you posted this rant in the right section. It doesn't seem to have a point or any real content but sure.

 

I think I will decide for myself what is right and wrong for me or what rights I have in my own mind.

 

Did you think the larger font would draw more attention to you?

[mymistake]

I don't remember all the questions when I signed on here, but this thread has uncovered something I think probably should be addressed. It has already been noted by others that believing in the God of the bible doesn't automatically make someone a Christian. I think there is general agreement that a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is Divine and is worshipped as God because that doctrine indicates He is God incarnate.

 

Deists, for example, believe in a creator (god) but reject all revealed sacred text and do not recognize Jesus as being in any way divine. Additionally, there is a general realization that de-converting is a process and often occurs in distinct stages. Deism, or something like that, is often one of those stages.

 

The posts in this thread indicate checking the box that a person believes in the god of the bible automatically labels them christian. The simple solution would seem to be to just change the question and ask "Are you a Christian" yes or no. That would eliminate all the ambiguities.

 

Personally, I would make them deny Christ.  

 

What, can't do it?  We found a Christian!

[directionless]

 

I don't remember all the questions when I signed on here, but this thread has uncovered something I think probably should be addressed. It has already been noted by others that believing in the God of the bible doesn't automatically make someone a Christian. I think there is general agreement that a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is Divine and is worshipped as God because that doctrine indicates He is God incarnate.

 

Deists, for example, believe in a creator (god) but reject all revealed sacred text and do not recognize Jesus as being in any way divine. Additionally, there is a general realization that de-converting is a process and often occurs in distinct stages. Deism, or something like that, is often one of those stages.

 

The posts in this thread indicate checking the box that a person believes in the god of the bible automatically labels them christian. The simple solution would seem to be to just change the question and ask "Are you a Christian" yes or no. That would eliminate all the ambiguities.

 

Personally, I would make them deny Christ.  

 

What, can't do it?  We found a Christian!

Or an athiest troll pretending to be a Christian. That's what most of them are IMO.

[CliffordStamper]

 

 

Is the christian label truly not appropriate?  Why not (I mean, you do have "god of the bible" listed)?  How do your beliefs differ from a billion or so fools who call themselves 'christian'?

Hello All,

 

I see my status has been changed.  I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word.,

 

As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works."

 

R S,

 

I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian..  What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie..

 

Sincerely

Cliff

 

Looks to me like for all intents and purposes you are a Christian but for some reason that suits your tastes you reject the name.

 

If it looks like a Christian, walks like a Christian, talks like a Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

Put another way: If it carries avatars like a Christian, professes the God of the Christian, and argues like the Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

If it's not a Christian but looks, talks, and walks like one, I'm apt to treat it like one.

 

I believe you missed something. The little dude is my avitar, the big avatar with the cross and Christian on it is some kind if status indicator put there by  the forum.

[CliffordStamper]

 

      I get  it. . .   You've been hurt. . . Your angry and not without reason,  Who wouldn't be!!!! You kept stepping out in (faith) and getting knocked down.  They say if you let them in (it )will help you. You let them in (Spill your guts). You tell them about your life your doubts and fears and they say your problem is you.   You sin , your gay,  you have sex out side of marriage, You associate with "Bad" people.  You don't tithe. You don't  follow their rules.  They judge and / or reject you.

   In many cases it is as painful as loosing a loved one. A spouse or child. And the years ,maybe decades of your life  wasted, stolen, lost.  .

 

I have been there done that, bought the shirt and have the scares to prove it. I know what it's like ,so angry you want to swing at something. But what?

 

It's People?? It's book????  That changes nothing  In fact it just makes it worse.  

 

You need somebody, anybody  to hear you ,feel your pain tell you it's going to be better It's going to be alright

 

It's going to be better ... It's going to get better.  It will be alright down the road. But you have to get past the anger   Not for IT    Not for them,    but for yourself.

 

 

       Sincerly  Yours

     Cliff Stamper 

 

yeah ok...

 

At least you posted this rant in the right section. It doesn't seem to have a point or any real content but sure.

 

I think I will decide for myself what is right and wrong for me or what rights I have in my own mind.

 

Did you think the larger font would draw more attention to you?

 

The larger font is due to some disagreement between the X C program and my computer.  in the reply box 14 is barely big enough for me to see and there is no 16 .  Any way I was trying to find a middle ground.

[directionless]

 

 

Is the christian label truly not appropriate?  Why not (I mean, you do have "god of the bible" listed)?  How do your beliefs differ from a billion or so fools who call themselves 'christian'?

Hello All,

 

I see my status has been changed.  I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word.,

 

As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works."

 

R S,

 

I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian..  What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie..

 

Sincerely

Cliff

 

Looks to me like for all intents and purposes you are a Christian but for some reason that suits your tastes you reject the name.

 

If it looks like a Christian, walks like a Christian, talks like a Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

Put another way: If it carries avatars like a Christian, professes the God of the Christian, and argues like the Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

If it's not a Christian but looks, talks, and walks like one, I'm apt to treat it like one.

I believe you missed something. The little dude is my avitar, the big avatar with the cross and Christian on it is some kind if status indicator put there by  the forum.

Cliff, I'm confused about your religious beliefs and practices. You believe in "the God of the Bible", but you don't want the Christian label. I'm curious how that fits together.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

Is the christian label truly not appropriate?  Why not (I mean, you do have "god of the bible" listed)?  How do your beliefs differ from a billion or so fools who call themselves 'christian'?

Hello All,

 

I see my status has been changed.  I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word.,

 

As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works."

 

R S,

 

I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian..  What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie..

 

Sincerely

Cliff

 

Looks to me like for all intents and purposes you are a Christian but for some reason that suits your tastes you reject the name.

 

If it looks like a Christian, walks like a Christian, talks like a Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

Put another way: If it carries avatars like a Christian, professes the God of the Christian, and argues like the Christian, it probably is a Christian.

 

If it's not a Christian but looks, talks, and walks like one, I'm apt to treat it like one.

I believe you missed something. The little dude is my avitar, the big avatar with the cross and Christian on it is some kind if status indicator put there by  the forum.

Cliff, I'm confused about your religious beliefs and practices. You believe in "the God of the Bible", but you don't want the Christian label. I'm curious how that fits together.

 

 

Maybe he's Jewish and really loves Yahweh, but rejects the idea of Yeshua being the messiah.

[Ravenstar]

Well without the NT, he'd be Jewish and he would call it the Torah, not the Bible. If you believe in the new testament.. well, it's all about Jesus being the solution... though some gnostic sects don't buy into the divinity thing.

 

Maybe he is a gnostic? Doubtful, but possible. Was it the Carthagenians? Or.. hmmmm, maybe one of those who have a 'relationship' and not a 'religion'. (snicker, sorry) Some New agers consider themselves christian, but their christianity is so mixed up with eastern philosophy and woo that I can't call it that. it's more.. 'whatever feels good this week', than anything actually based on the Bible.

 

The Bible is pretty clear on idolatry and paganism, actually. Death by stoning or something like that.

 

it's a mystery, for sure. Though I can understand aversion to labels, sometimes they are useful for communication.. as a base matrix to work from.

[Ravenstar]

Universalist?

[RankStranger]

Considering some other posts he's made around here, I'd be surprised if he isn't from a white, protestant background. Maybe he has some unconventional beliefs/ideals for somebody of that background. Maybe he's questioning his faith. Maybe he's actually trying to reach out to people. Or maybe he's just playing word-games like a thousand other Christians who have come through here. He seems either unwilling or unable to explain himself in any detail.

[Ravenstar]

That's a lot of maybe's  lol  though I suspect you are right.

 

I'll reserve my opinion for now. Could be interesting.

[Guest Marty]

Check out his signature quote: "Proof, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder".

 

How can you have a discussion with someone who doesn't agree what constitutes proof?

 

I took the time to read the punk ass kids thread, and he demonstrated this thinking perfectly by asking for proof the bible says to kill gays and then later saying that Lev 20:13 said "put to death", not "kill them", so he is still right.

 

If this is not a christian then I am the pope...