Denyoz Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Clifford is experiencing technical difficulties. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I suspect he might be happy in this church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollkyrka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 actually looks like a rather peaceful place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 So Clifford what's the difference between a Christian and just someone who believes in "The God of the Bible" ? What IS a Christian in your opinion? What are the beliefs of a person who just believes in The God of the Bible? ----- Does a person who believes in the God of the Bible but is not a Christian: Go to church that worships Jesus? Believe the new testament about Jesus being God? Recruit new members to be saved by Jesus according to John 3:16? Sing songs about Jesus? or do you Reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 Is the christian label truly not appropriate? Why not (I mean, you do have "god of the bible" listed)? How do your beliefs differ from a billion or so fools who call themselves 'christian'? Hello All, I see my status has been changed. I wish to thank all those who had a part in removing that Big red C word., As Ravenstar said "sometimes getting mad works." R S, I'm not a Christian and I'm mot not a christian.. What I want to accomplish here is to have a place to belong. I could have said unbeliever. I could have denied my faith and beliefs. It certainly would have been easier. That is not who or what I am. That is why I'm not in a Christian forum. Christianity (and I know some of you this) don't like those who question the doctrine. I would rather be alone than live a lie.. Sincerely Cliff Looks to me like for all intents and purposes you are a Christian but for some reason that suits your tastes you reject the name. If it looks like a Christian, walks like a Christian, talks like a Christian, it probably is a Christian. Put another way: If it carries avatars like a Christian, professes the God of the Christian, and argues like the Christian, it probably is a Christian. If it's not a Christian but looks, talks, and walks like one, I'm apt to treat it like one. I believe you missed something. The little dude is my avitar, the big avatar with the cross and Christian on it is some kind if status indicator put there by the forum. Cliff, I'm confused about your religious beliefs and practices. You believe in "the God of the Bible", but you don't want the Christian label. I'm curious how that fits together. So Clifford what's the difference between a Christian and just someone who believes in "The God of the Bible" ? What IS a Christian in your opinion? What are the beliefs of a person who just believes in The God of the Bible? ----- Does a person who believes in the God of the Bible but is not a Christian: Go to church that worships Jesus? Believe the new testament about Jesus being God? Recruit new members to be saved by Jesus according to John 3:16? Sing songs about Jesus? or do you Reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Sincere questions, I thank you, So Clifford what's the difference between a Christian and just someone who believes in "The God of the Bible" ? The biggest difference, today, is that a Christian believes what they have been told; I believe what I read ,see and experience. What IS a Christian in your opinion? In my opinion a Christian is one who follows Christ/ Jesus of the New Testament Bible ,Today by way of the bible and experience What are the beliefs of a person who just believes in The God of the Bible? In regards to what??? I go to church to fellowship. Be with friends and family I believe that the whole trinity thing is theological hog wash to counter claims by Pagans that Christians were pluralistic idolaters I do not "recruit" and John 3;16 is irrelevant to the question of "recruiting" I sing songs about Jesus among other things. I do not reject Jesus. Sincerely Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 So you do follow and worship Christ but you do not like the name "Christian"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 So, are you happier with the Ex-Christian symbol under your avatar now? So, you're like a social Christian with possible Deist leanings? You have problems with church doctrine but do not reject Jesus. You avatar guy is from Gaia and it is pretty famous for forums with trolling. But you do seem pretty sincere in most posts and I also like that you are getting more people posting. Sooo, welcome! I guess it would be hard to find forums that are in between fundamentalist Christian and non-Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Sincere questions, I thank you, So Clifford what's the difference between a Christian and just someone who believes in "The God of the Bible" ? The biggest difference, today, is that a Christian believes what they have been told; I believe what I read ,see and experience. What IS a Christian in your opinion? In my opinion a Christian is one who follows Christ/ Jesus of the New Testament Bible ,Today by way of the bible and experience What are the beliefs of a person who just believes in The God of the Bible? In regards to what??? I go to church to fellowship. Be with friends and family I believe that the whole trinity thing is theological hog wash to counter claims by Pagans that Christians were pluralistic idolaters I do not "recruit" and John 3;16 is irrelevant to the question of "recruiting" I sing songs about Jesus among other things. I do not reject Jesus. Sincerely Cliff My questions could have been better I think. :-) How about these: Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God? Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Do you believe in, worship or pray to Jesus? Do you feel that if you believe in/worship/pray to Jesus you will have everlasting life in heaven? Are you concerned that people here might go to hell or miss out on heaven if they do not believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior? Do you feel you need to help us believe in Jesus and/or the bible? A "yes" to these questions indicates to me that you are what a survey of the United States population would indicate to be a Christian. But you can call yourself whatever you like or even go without a label. If you answer "no" to these questions then you are probably not what a survey of the US population would indicate to be a Christian. Someone previously mentioned that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it probably is a duck. But if someone wants to label their duck-like behavior as a "horse" that's fine. I'll just continue to think of it as a duck. I do realize that everyone is unique and claims a unique set of beliefs as his own. I certainly cannot call myself absolutely this or that, but a mishmash of all sorts of beliefs and attitudes. I appreciate your concept of not believing what you are told. Have you been told to read the bible? Or do you read it just because you enjoy it? Do you read any books that oppose the bible's teaching? Why? Why not? If you answer my questions , I thank you. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Ok, so he's a christian playing word-games. Can't say I'm surprised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 30, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted August 30, 2013 Wow. After perusing your initial diatribe, I was simply going to retort that people like you were the reason I left the faith. However, being a cautious individual, I decided to at least do a cursory scan of the ensuing comment thread to see if I could obtain a more accurate grasp of what your intentions might have been in posting what, to the untrained eye, would appear to be nothing more than godling troll bait. Having done so, I have come to suspect that at some level, you are as confused by your presence in this forum as some of the others who have posted comments. If I have assessed this incorrectly, you may disregard anything further in this reply. Since the idea that many of us were, in fact, angry and that most of us do, in fact, push past our anger, has already been covered by much abler minds than mine, I see no reason to belabor that particular point except to say that your encouragement for us to do so did come off, in my mind at least, as being a bit shallow, even when I re-read it while trying to distract my mind from thinking of you with the big red label affixed to your chest. Rather, the fact that you do come off as being angry yourself and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out on that anger, is without a doubt, highly significant. Now, I hold a bachelors degree in education as well as a degree in biotechnology; resultantly, psychology is not my field of expertise and I would not be so presumptuous as to speak above my station. However, it is this anger/defense factor in your post that I would like to see addressed. Therefore, as an opener, I submit the question to you: Why do you think you come off as angry and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Semantic masturbation is important to some folks for a variety of reasons. In the case of the OP, it seems that he merely wants attention, which is a fairly simplistic and infantile purpose. He has limited writing skills, which provides more confusion than coherence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 So you believe the bible is true to the extend that it does not conflict with what has been established by your own observations and what science has shown to be true(based upon today's knowledge)? In a book I read a while ago by Jimmy Carter he said approximately the same thing. But what about miracles in the bible and other biblical history? What do you believe about those things? bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God? Yes Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Yes Do you believe in, worship or pray to Jesus? No, I pray to the father Do you feel that if you believe in/worship/pray to Jesus you will have everlasting life in heaven? For prayer/ No Are you concerned that people here might go to hell or miss out on heaven if they do not believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior? No Do you feel you need to help us believe in Jesus and/or the bible? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Wow. After perusing your initial diatribe, I was simply going to retort that people like you were the reason I left the faith. However, being a cautious individual, I decided to at least do a cursory scan of the ensuing comment thread to see if I could obtain a more accurate grasp of what your intentions might have been in posting what, to the untrained eye, would appear to be nothing more than godling troll bait. Having done so, I have come to suspect that at some level, you are as confused by your presence in this forum as some of the others who have posted comments. If I have assessed this incorrectly, you may disregard anything further in this reply. Since the idea that many of us were, in fact, angry and that most of us do, in fact, push past our anger, has already been covered by much abler minds than mine, I see no reason to belabor that particular point except to say that your encouragement for us to do so did come off, in my mind at least, as being a bit shallow, even when I re-read it while trying to distract my mind from thinking of you with the big red label affixed to your chest. Rather, the fact that you do come off as being angry yourself and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out on that anger, is without a doubt, highly significant. Now, I hold a bachelors degree in education as well as a degree in biotechnology; resultantly, psychology is not my field of expertise and I would not be so presumptuous as to speak above my station. However, it is this anger/defense factor in your post that I would like to see addressed. Therefore, as an opener, I submit the question to you: Why do you think you come off as angry and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out? In this case I was angry. And I was on unfamiliar ground. I have never entered a forum in such a matter.. I have tried other ways and they usually wound up with me being pushed out or removed. My initial intent was enter and avoid the use of the traditional Christian logic/ jargon/ judgment/ etc and see what happened. I soon found out that my every word was met with accusations, contempt and in some cases out right cruel and childish behavior it really made me angry. And when I realized that that "Christian" label meant more here than who I am as a person, it took me over the limit. i thought you people would realize that there are still people trapped in there, in Christianity. Some by ignorance, some by deception, some because they were looking for a place to exercise their faith. I thought you people,above all, would know that ! They're stories are your stories, Your stories are their's if they get out. I didn't have to get out. I thank my God I never managed to get in. Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 i thought you people would realize that there are still people trapped in there, in Christianity. Some by ignorance, some by deception, some because they were looking for a place to exercise their faith. I thought you people,above all, would know that ! They're stories are your stories, Your stories are their's if they get out. I didn't have to get out. I thank my God I never managed to get in. Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... I see that you still don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Wow. After perusing your initial diatribe, I was simply going to retort that people like you were the reason I left the faith. However, being a cautious individual, I decided to at least do a cursory scan of the ensuing comment thread to see if I could obtain a more accurate grasp of what your intentions might have been in posting what, to the untrained eye, would appear to be nothing more than godling troll bait. Having done so, I have come to suspect that at some level, you are as confused by your presence in this forum as some of the others who have posted comments. If I have assessed this incorrectly, you may disregard anything further in this reply. Since the idea that many of us were, in fact, angry and that most of us do, in fact, push past our anger, has already been covered by much abler minds than mine, I see no reason to belabor that particular point except to say that your encouragement for us to do so did come off, in my mind at least, as being a bit shallow, even when I re-read it while trying to distract my mind from thinking of you with the big red label affixed to your chest. Rather, the fact that you do come off as being angry yourself and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out on that anger, is without a doubt, highly significant. Now, I hold a bachelors degree in education as well as a degree in biotechnology; resultantly, psychology is not my field of expertise and I would not be so presumptuous as to speak above my station. However, it is this anger/defense factor in your post that I would like to see addressed. Therefore, as an opener, I submit the question to you: Why do you think you come off as angry and then quickly jump to the defensive when called out? In this case I was angry. And I was on unfamiliar ground. I have never entered a forum in such a matter.. I have tried other ways and they usually wound up with me being pushed out or removed. My initial intent was enter and avoid the use of the traditional Christian logic/ jargon/ judgment/ etc and see what happened. I soon found out that my every word was met with accusations, contempt and in some cases out right cruel and childish behavior it really made me angry. And when I realized that that "Christian" label meant more here than who I am as a person, it took me over the limit. i thought you people would realize that there are still people trapped in there, in Christianity. Some by ignorance, some by deception, some because they were looking for a place to exercise their faith. I thought you people,above all, would know that ! They're stories are your stories, Your stories are their's if they get out. I didn't have to get out. I thank my God I never managed to get in. Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... Quit playing the victim. I wrote a reply to you on the punk ass kids thread, go read it. In fact, you should read all of the answers you got here on this site. Would you prefer a Fuck Off? No one has said that to you that I know of, but would that make you feel better? You could find a lot of friends here, maybe even some allies, but I have to say that most who will come after you won't understand what you are all about any more than those of us that are here do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God? Yes Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Yes Why do you believe these things? Did someone tell you that? Did a book tell you that? Why do you believe what the bible says? Do you question what the bible says? If not, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 31, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2013 In this case I was angry. And I was on unfamiliar ground. I have never entered a forum in such a matter.. I have tried other ways and they usually wound up with me being pushed out or removed. My initial intent was enter and avoid the use of the traditional Christian logic/ jargon/ judgment/ etc and see what happened. I soon found out that my every word was met with accusations, contempt and in some cases out right cruel and childish behavior it really made me angry. And when I realized that that "Christian" label meant more here than who I am as a person, it took me over the limit. i thought you people would realize that there are still people trapped in there, in Christianity. Some by ignorance, some by deception, some because they were looking for a place to exercise their faith. I thought you people,above all, would know that ! They're stories are your stories, Your stories are their's if they get out. I didn't have to get out. I thank my God I never managed to get in. Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... To begin with, if you were on unfamiliar ground, you have no right to be angry with anyone but yourself; you should have educated yourself as to the nature of the forum you were entering. The same is true with your specious statement regarding the "Christian" label. What did you expect was going to happen when you came into a forum called "Ex-Christian", claiming to believe in the god of the bible and spouting off about how we just need to get over our anger? Did you think that we would all just suddenly realize, with rapturous epiphany, that you were right? Did you think that none of us had ever heard that particular line of bovine excrement before and that you were going to be the first one to ever open our eyes? Did you, as a bible-beliving-whatever-you-want-to-label-yourself, really think you understood us? I don't mean these questions to be harsh, nor am I attempting to push you away, because some part of me really believes you are searching for answers. I don't even need you to answer these questions for me; but you would be wise to answer them for yourself. These may even be the first questions you answer before any of us are able to help you find the answers you seek. For the record, I've never spoken of "kindess, open mindedness, compasion love"; I am, therefore, under no compulsion whatever to show them. I will, however, indulge you in what little patience I have because, again, some part of me still believes you could be helped here. However, I'm not fond of having words put into my mouth and if we are going to converse, you'd do well to remember that. As to your claim that you were honest when you came in here, I rather doubt that you were. You were honest enough to admit that you believed in the god of the bible; but I don't think you were honest about your intentions. I think the reason you are here is because you don't want to believe anymore, but you are not yet willing to admit that to yourself. I believe the reason you seem so angry is not because you have been beaten back by anyone on this site, but rather you are angry at yourself for not giving yourself the same freedoms we have given ourselves. You are merely projecting your anger onto us because you still lack the strength to admit that belief in the god of the bible is an untenable position. I believe you want what we have, but you are asking for it in the wrong manner. Here again, I may have inaccurately assessed the situation, and if I have done, feel free to disregard what I've said. However, remember that it is you who've come here searching, and what you find here will be determined largely by the manner in which you conduct your search. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 ... In this case I was angry. And I was on unfamiliar ground. I have never entered a forum in such a matter.. I have tried other ways and they usually wound up with me being pushed out or removed. My initial intent was enter and avoid the use of the traditional Christian logic/ jargon/ judgment/ etc and see what happened. I soon found out that my every word was met with accusations, contempt and in some cases out right cruel and childish behavior it really made me angry. And when I realized that that "Christian" label meant more here than who I am as a person, it took me over the limit. i thought you people would realize that there are still people trapped in there, in Christianity. Some by ignorance, some by deception, some because they were looking for a place to exercise their faith. I thought you people,above all, would know that ! They're stories are your stories, Your stories are their's if they get out. I didn't have to get out. I thank my God I never managed to get in. Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... Cliff, if you are a real person saying what you think, then I'm sorry about my insinuations that you might be an atheist troll. Either way, I agree that the "authentic Christian believer" marks people as targets for ex-Christians who are angry at Christianity or seek to show the stupidity of Christianity. Personally I wish we had more real Christians and ex-Christians from a variety of denominations who could discuss their beliefs and experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Some one in here called this a safe haven, place to recover. I was honest when I came in here and what I got was not help. What I got was a target on my chest.I'm not saying this for me! I'm speaking for those who follow. You speak of kindness, open mindedness, companion love, Well show it!!! Not to me but to those who come after me... Clifford, If you're really looking for help, there are a lot of people here who would be willing to reach out to you. Some people won't be so nice, but you'll just have to avoid those people. Someone else mentioned that it is difficult to interpret tone on an internet forum, so it can be easy to misunderstand you if you don't clearly articulate the sentiment you're trying to convey. I still can't determine what help you're looking for, and I can only guess that others here are equally confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 31, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2013 As to your claim that you were honest when you came in here, I rather doubt that you were. You were honest enough to admit that you believed in the god of the bible; but I don't think you were honest about your intentions. I think the reason you are here is because you don't want to believe anymore, but you are not yet willing to admit that to yourself. I believe the reason you seem so angry is not because you have been beaten back by anyone on this site, but rather you are angry at yourself for not giving yourself the same freedoms we have given ourselves. You are merely projecting your anger onto us because you still lack the strength to admit that belief in the god of the bible is an untenable position. I believe you want what we have, but you are asking for it in the wrong manner. Here again, I may have inaccurately assessed the situation, and if I have done, feel free to disregard what I've said. However, remember that it is you who've come here searching, and what you find here will be determined largely by the manner in which you conduct your search. I have felt this from the start of this thread Redneck. Rephrasing the letter...... By the way...Welcome to EX-c Cliff!! Glad to have you here. I mean that sincerely. If none of this below has any truth, I apoligize, but I can definitely read anger in your thread also (as you see in ours) .......................................................................................... I get it. . . You've I've been hurt. . . Your My angry... and not without reason, Who wouldn't be!!!! You I kept stepping out in (faith) and getting knocked down. They say if you let them in (it ) will help you. You I let them in (Spill your guts). You I tell them about your my life your my doubts and fears and they say your problem is you. You I sin, you're ??gay, you I have sex out side of marriage, You I associate with "Bad" people. You I don't tithe. You I don't follow their rules. They judge and/or reject you me. In many cases it is as painful as loosing a loved one. A spouse or child. And the years, maybe decades of your my life have been wasted, stolen, lost. . I have 'been there done that', bought the shirt and have the scares to prove it. I know what it's like, so angry you want to swing at something. But what? It's People?? It's book???? That changes nothing everything for me and what I believed. In fact it just makes it worse.. because I have been very slowly discovering that I have been lied to and this scares me.. You I need somebody, anybody to hear you me, feel your my pain,and tell you me it's going to be better It's going to be alright. It's going to be better ... It's going to get better. It will be alright down the road. But you I have to get past the anger Not for IT,Not for them, but for yourself myself. Sincerly Yours Cliff Stamper 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 As to your claim that you were honest when you came in here, I rather doubt that you were. You were honest enough to admit that you believed in the god of the bible; but I don't think you were honest about your intentions. I think the reason you are here is because you don't want to believe anymore, but you are not yet willing to admit that to yourself. I believe the reason you seem so angry is not because you have been beaten back by anyone on this site, but rather you are angry at yourself for not giving yourself the same freedoms we have given ourselves. You are merely projecting your anger onto us because you still lack the strength to admit that belief in the god of the bible is an untenable position. I believe you want what we have, but you are asking for it in the wrong manner. Here again, I may have inaccurately assessed the situation, and if I have done, feel free to disregard what I've said. However, remember that it is you who've come here searching, and what you find here will be determined largely by the manner in which you conduct your search. I have felt this from the start of this thread Redneck. Rephrasing the letter...... By the way...Welcome to EX-c Cliff!! Glad to have you here. I mean that sincerely. If none of this below has any truth, I apoligize, but I can definitely read anger in your thread also (as you see in ours) .......................................................................................... I get it. . . You've I've been hurt. . . Your My angry... and not without reason, Who wouldn't be!!!! You I kept stepping out in (faith) and getting knocked down. They say if you let them in (it ) will help you. You I let them in (Spill your guts). You I tell them about your my life your my doubts and fears and they say your problem is you. You I sin, you're ??gay, you I have sex out side of marriage, You I associate with "Bad" people. You I don't tithe. You I don't follow their rules. They judge and/or reject you me. In many cases it is as painful as loosing a loved one. A spouse or child. And the years, maybe decades of your my life have been wasted, stolen, lost. . I have 'been there done that', bought the shirt and have the scares to prove it. I know what it's like, so angry you want to swing at something. But what? It's People?? It's book???? That changes nothing everything for me and what I believed. In fact it just makes it worse.. because I have been very slowly discovering that I have been lied to and this scares me.. You I need somebody, anybody to hear you me, feel your my pain,and tell you me it's going to be better It's going to be alright. It's going to be better ... It's going to get better. It will be alright down the road. But you I have to get past the anger Not for IT,Not for them, but for yourself myself. Sincerly Yours Cliff Stamper Damn Margee. That's the most insightful post in this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Much like an alcoholic must first admit there is a problem before recovery can begin, when I first allowed myself to answer my deepest, most confusing questions about christianity with "god doesn't exist and it is all myth", that was when everything started to make sense in my mind. Cliff, perhaps you have already passed that mark, because for me the anger soon followed the acceptance of that statement. I believe anger is closely related to fear, and may I be presumptuous enough to assume what may be truly holding you back is fear of hellfire and damnation? This doctrine is one of the most insidious and one of the main reasons I feel they try so hard to get into the minds of children, because the younger you develop a fear of hell, the harder it is to drop the faith as an adult. May I suggest 2 books that helped me greatly understand where some of the core ideas of christianity came from? They are not sensationalized books, but scholarly works that simply trace the history of the ideas of heaven and hell, and a dark, evil god. It may sound surprising, but an all encompassing evil god is a new development in religion. Most polytheistic religions had what would be considered a "trickster" or "joker" god, which was usually never completely evil, but served an adversarial role in the mythology. They are, The History of the Devil by Gerald Massidie http://www.amazon.com/A-History-Devil-Gerald-Messadié/dp/156836198X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377963213&sr=8-1&keywords=the+history+of+the+devil And the classic, The History of God by Karen Armstrong http://www.amazon.com/History-God-000-Year-Judaism-Christianity/dp/0345384563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377963271&sr=8-1&keywords=the+history+of+god I highly recommend you find at least the first one and understand where christianity's eternal torture doctrine came from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God? Yes Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Yes Why do you believe these things? Did someone tell you that? Did a book tell you that? Why do you believe what the bible says? Do you question what the bible says? If not, why not? Let me clarify, I believe I am a sinner. and I believe Jesus died for my sins I believe these things for the same reason a soldier believes he is a soldier. Because I have submitted myself to that book just like a soldier submits to the articles in the UCMJ uniform code of military Justice. And it says all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. It also says that Jesus died as payment for my sins (short comings). I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proovesto me it is authentic. I question everything and yes I questioned the bible. Sincerly Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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