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Goodbye Jesus

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CliffordStamper

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I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that prooves to me it is authentic.

...

 

Sincerly

Cliff

 

Please identify some of this evidence.

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Much like an alcoholic must first admit there is a problem before recovery can begin, when I first allowed myself to answer my deepest, most confusing questions about christianity with "god doesn't exist and it is all myth", that was when everything started to make sense in my mind.  Cliff, perhaps you have already passed that mark, because for me the anger soon followed the acceptance of that statement.

 

I believe anger is closely related to fear, and may I be presumptuous enough to assume what may be truly holding you back is fear of hellfire and damnation?  This doctrine is one of the most insidious and one of the main reasons I feel they try so hard to get into the minds of children, because the younger you develop a fear of hell, the harder it is to drop the faith as an adult.

 

May I suggest 2 books that helped me greatly understand where some of the core ideas of christianity came from?  They are not sensationalized books, but scholarly works that simply trace the history of the ideas of heaven and hell, and a dark, evil god.  It may sound surprising, but an all encompassing evil god is a new development in religion.  Most polytheistic religions had what would be considered a "trickster" or "joker" god, which was usually never completely evil, but served an adversarial role in the mythology.

 

They are, The History of the Devil by Gerald Massidie

 

http://www.amazon.com/A-History-Devil-Gerald-Messadié/dp/156836198X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377963213&sr=8-1&keywords=the+history+of+the+devil

 

And the classic, The History of God by Karen Armstrong

 

http://www.amazon.com/History-God-000-Year-Judaism-Christianity/dp/0345384563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377963271&sr=8-1&keywords=the+history+of+god

 

I highly recommend you find at least the first one and understand where christianity's eternal torture doctrine came from...

Hi Marty,

 

Thank you for your honest heart felt advice. I have no fear of "Hell" or "damnation". I spent almost 8 years in the military. I did not read the entire USMJ.  I do know that it has articles concerning the Firing Squad.. I did not live 7+ years scared to death of facing a firing squad because I knew I would never do anything to deserve being placed before one. The only ones who fear hell are those who believe they deserve to be there.

 

You are absolutely right about one thing  Fear causes anger.What does that tell you about those who are still angry at me?

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...

I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that prooves to me it is authentic.

...

 

Sincerly

Cliff

 

Please identify some of this evidence.

 

I can not "identify"my evidence for you. I can only tell you why I have faith in Jesus. It's up to you identify it for yourself.

 

There are many pieces and it will take some time ,so we will start here.;

 

Who established the seven day week?

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I can not "identify"my evidence for you. I can only tell you why I have faith in Jesus. It's up to you identify it for yourself.

 

 

 

 

That is because your idea of evidence is relative and subjective.  Just look at your sig.

 

 

 

There are many pieces and it will take some time ,so we will start here.;

 

Who established the seven day week?

 

Babylon.  There were seven major "moving" objects vissible in the sky so they named a day of the week for each one.  Sun, Moon, Saturn became Sunday, Monday, Saturday.  Later on English picked up the names for Norse gods for days like Thor's Day and so on.

 

What evidence?

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...

I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that prooves to me it is authentic.

...

 

Sincerly

Cliff

 

Please identify some of this evidence.

 

I can not "identify"my evidence for you. I can only tell you why I have faith in Jesus. It's up to you identify it for yourself.

...

 

 

How convenient.  You assert you have evidence but refuse to provide it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

There are many pieces and it will take some time ,so we will start here.;

 

Who established the seven day week?

 

 

 

The empirical evidence reveals that humans established the seven day week, likely starting with the Babylonians and based on the lunar synodic cycle of 29 1/2 days. 

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"I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proves to me it is authentic." (fixed it for you)

 

Hmm.. the Bible I read said that witnessing is about the best darn thing you can do. That ONE soul would have been enough for Jesus' sacrifice... the lost lambs

 

Please, do share this preponderance of evidence that proves it is authentic, because I must have missed that somewhere in my travels, and study. I really want to see this.. been searching my entire life for the truth. It would be irresponsible of you to NOT share this.. considering that if we don't see this and are not convinced we are spending eternity in hell. Do you really want that on your conscience? If you are so certain that you have evidence that the Bible is authentic, and you don't share that, what are you going to say when you are face to face with your saviour, or creator?

 

ONE person, Clifford, just one... could read your words and be saved.

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The Sumerians established the 7 day week...then the Babylonians picked it up... SUNday, MOONday, SATURNday, (the Norse gave us the names FREYA'sday , TIRSday, WOTAN'sday, THORSday... Norse Gods) as was stated before..they are now anglicized, it's astronomical and based on natural celestial cycles.

 

Saturn... Is Chronos, the Lawgiver.. a very ancient God  A Sky God... :D  Saturn's number is 7, as in the seventh planet of our solar system.. so it's actually astrology.

 

7 is a sacred number in many mythologies. As are 3 and 12, the Chaldean's  (Akkadia) were all about the numbers.. and they predate the Hebrews.

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"I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proves to me it is authentic." (fixed it for you)

 

Hmm.. the Bible I read said that witnessing is about the best darn thing you can do. That ONE soul would have been enough for Jesus' sacrifice... the lost lambs

 

Please, do share this preponderance of evidence that proves it is authentic, because I must have missed that somewhere in my travels, and study. I really want to see this.. been searching my entire life for the truth. It would be irresponsible of you to NOT share this.. considering that if we don't see this and are not convinced we are spending eternity in hell. Do you really want that on your conscience? If you are so certain that you have evidence that the Bible is authentic, and you don't share that, what are you going to say when you are face to face with your saviour, or creator?

 

ONE person, Clifford, just one... could read your words and be saved.

Hi there Raven ,if I may be so bold as to use a nick name.  

Thank you for fixen that for me. 

 

I will gladly tell you why I believe. That is  after all my job. "As you know"

 

Let me tell you a story;

 

There was a man working on an assembly line. When this glass piece come down the assembly line his job was to make a mark on it and set it back on the conveyor. He did not know what they were,  where they come from or where they went.  He did not know if they were expensive or cheep, whether they were good of bad, just that his job was to leave this mark on every one he touched.   I am that Guy

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I did not say one word about going back to Christianity, I haven't said that anywhere in this forum. And I won't Had I not been labeled "Authentic Christian Believer" when I signed up here you all would have taken this thread a whole lot different It's OK Only an idiot would open a hornets nest and not know they will get a sting or two.

 

I won't argue / debate the bible, not with anyone. I won't argue/debate Doctrine.. I have not and will not defend any part of Christianity. Show me one place where I have and I'll leave!!!

Clifford, if you go to edit your profile, where it asks if you have any gods, change your answer to "no". I think -- not sure, but I think that will get rid of the "authentic Christian believer" label. If that doesn't work, ask a moderator to help you change it.

 

EDIT

 

Oh, never mind, I see it's already changed. But it still says you believe n the god of the bible.

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You need some more job training and maybe a performance review.

 

Let me tell you a story:

 

There was a girl who always asked questions, and in her heart really had a burning desire for truth and knowledge - it was all that really mattered to her. Even very young she noticed that she had been told a lot of lies... even from those who professed to care for her. As she grew up she traveled far and wide inside and out, and was a seeker, a researcher, a questioner, she went to every place she could think of to find out the truth,, she also saw that the world was full of lies and that those lies caused the world pain. She saw that most people lived their lives in white lies and believing that which was comforting... and most others knew but looked the other way, because they did the same thing... it was easier to live that way.

 

But, she still desired truth and pursued it relentlessly. She made a promise to herself to seek truth in all things, and when she was older and a little more courageous, to confront lies when she came across them... no matter how scary it was or what the personal cost. I am THAT girl.

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I am truly sorry, but I can not answer all your questions .The very best I can do is promise not to lie to you. I am making that promise now. I will not lie to you

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I did not say one word about going back to Christianity, I haven't said that anywhere in this forum. And I won't Had I not been labeled "Authentic Christian Believer" when I signed up here you all would have taken this thread a whole lot different It's OK Only an idiot would open a hornets nest and not know they will get a sting or two.

 

I won't argue / debate the bible, not with anyone. I won't argue/debate Doctrine.. I have not and will not defend any part of Christianity. Show me one place where I have and I'll leave!!!

Clifford, if you go to edit your profile, where it asks if you have any gods, change your answer to "no". I think -- not sure, but I think that will get rid of the "authentic Christian believer" label. If that doesn't work, ask a moderator to help you change it.

 

EDIT

 

Oh, never mind, I see it's already changed. But it still says you believe n the god of the bible.

 

Which is exactly what I wanted and I did not have to lie to get it

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Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God?  

Yes

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins?

Yes

 

 

Why do you believe these things? Did someone tell you that? Did a book tell you that? Why do you believe what the bible says? Do you question what the bible says? If not, why not?

 

Let me clarify,  I believe I am a sinner.  and I believe Jesus died for my sins   I believe these things for the same reason a soldier believes he is a soldier.  Because I have submitted myself to that book just like a soldier submits to the articles in the UCMJ uniform code of military Justice.   And it says all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. It also says that Jesus died as payment for my  sins (short comings). I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proovesto me it is authentic. I question everything and yes I questioned the bible. 

 

Sincerly

Cliff

 

 

I used to believe these Christian things: That I was a sinner, That Jesus died for my sins. I didn't really read much of the bible as a Christian. I gave up this belief after 10 years when it conflicted with my "God given sin nature" . I prefer to continue to sin as long as my sins don't bother other people. My eyes were really opened up as I came to this site and discovered what a disjointed self contradictory mess the bible is if you actually read it and are not afraid to read and entertain other people's commentary that point out the contradictions.

 

I don't believe what the bible says because of the preponderance of evidence against it. Nor has God appeared to me in person to say "The bible is true." Lot's of Christians have told me the bible is true but never God. If God wants a personal relationship with me he ought to come visit me. Using people to convey his message is not a personal relationship. So either the God of the bible doesn't want a personal relationship or he doesnt exist. IMO.

 

If belief in Jesus works for you why are you even here on this site? The people here do not believe they are sinners. They do not believe Jesus died for their sins. They don't believe in sin. A lot of them don't believe in God period. Their beliefs are in direct opposition to yours even if you do call yourself an Ex-Christian.

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I am truly sorry, but I can not answer all your questions .The very best I can do is promise not to lie to you. I am making that promise now. I will not lie to you

mue6v.jpg

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Do you believe that you are a sinner and fall short of the glory of God?  

Yes

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins?

Yes

 

 

Why do you believe these things? Did someone tell you that? Did a book tell you that? Why do you believe what the bible says? Do you question what the bible says? If not, why not?

 

Let me clarify,  I believe I am a sinner.  and I believe Jesus died for my sins   I believe these things for the same reason a soldier believes he is a soldier.  Because I have submitted myself to that book just like a soldier submits to the articles in the UCMJ uniform code of military Justice.   And it says all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. It also says that Jesus died as payment for my  sins (short comings). I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proovesto me it is authentic. I question everything and yes I questioned the bible. 

 

Sincerly

Cliff

 

 

I submitted myself to the UCMJ because there was a paycheck involved. Soldiers are soldiers for a variety of reasons. I did not consider the UCMJ the infallible word of the US military either.

 

Both the UCMJ and the bible are not above criticism. IMO.

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midniterider

 

Thank you for your response, I appreciate your open honesty

 

I understand your position

 

 

Sincerely

Cliff

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I am truly sorry, but I can not answer all your questions .The very best I can do is promise not to lie to you. I am making that promise now. I will not lie to you

Fair enough.  

 

Many theists debate using lies and misrepresentations obtained from certain sources, most frequently creationist whore websites.  If these theists do not yet know that they are repeating lies and misrepresentations then they are not lying themselves.  However, once the lies and misrepresentations are identified for the theist, further use of them by the theist results in a lie.

 

Many theists also debate using a plethora of common logical fallacies.  If these theists do not yet know they are using fallacious reasoning, then they are not being intellectually or rationally dishonest.  However, once the logical fallacies are identified and made known to the theist, further use of them by the theist results in disingenuousness.

 

If you choose to debate members on this forum concerning religion, you will have an opportunity to test your intellectual honesty, your curiosity and your ability to think rationally.

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The Sumerians established the 7 day week...then the Babylonians picked it up... SUNday, MOONday, SATURNday, (the Norse gave us the names FREYA'sday , TIRSday, WOTAN'sday, THORSday... Norse Gods) as was stated before..they are now anglicized, it's astronomical and based on natural celestial cycles.

 

Saturn... Is Chronos, the Lawgiver.. a very ancient God  A Sky God... biggrin.png  Saturn's number is 7, as in the seventh planet of our solar system.. so it's actually astrology.

 

7 is a sacred number in many mythologies. As are 3 and 12, the Chaldean's  (Akkadia) were all about the numbers.. and they predate the Hebrews.

 

A coven of witches is 13 witches. Jesus plus the twelve disciples = 13. Hmm.

 

I'm surprised that Christianity was unable to get a name change for the days of the week.

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Midniterider wrote


I submitted myself to the UCMJ because there was a paycheck involved. Soldiers are soldiers for a variety of reasons. I did not consider the UCMJ the infallible word of the US military either.


 


Both the UCMJ and the bible are not above criticism. IMO.


 

And Believers are believers for various reasons And atheist are atheist for various reasons

I can only give the reason that I believe I cannot speak for others.

 

 

As long as there is a mouth with which to criticize nothing is beyond it

 

Sincerely

Cliff

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Why does he believe?  Because a preponderance of evidence.  That is why.  

 

 

Can he share that evidence?  No, he cannot.  He can only tell you why he believes.

 

 

So just why does he believe?  Because of a preponderance of evidence.  That's why.

 

 

So what is this evidence.  He cannot say.  He can only tell you why he believes.

 

 

Okay, why does he believe?  It's because of all the evidence!

 

 

What evidence?  He can't tell you but rest assured he won't lie to you.  However he can tell you why he believes.

 

 

Why?   It's the evidence . . . 

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  • Super Moderator

 

 

You are absolutely right about one thing  Fear causes anger.What does that tell you about those who are still angry at me?

 

 

just that his job was to leave this mark on every one he touched.   I am that Guy

On a side note, Cliff, a modicum of modesty wouldn't hurt your case any at all.

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"Let me clarify, I believe I am a sinner. and I believe Jesus died for my sins I believe these things for the same reason a soldier believes he is a soldier. Because I have submitted myself to that book just like a soldier submits to the articles in the UCMJ uniform code of military Justice. And it says all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. It also says that Jesus died as payment for my sins (short comings). I believe the bible because the bible reveals to me who I really am.I believe the bible because I have found a preponderance of evidence that proovesto me it is authentic. I question everything and yes I questioned the bible."

 

Sincerly

Cliff"

 

Thank you for that clarification. At least I now know where you are coming from. But as has already been pointed out to you, relying on the UCMJ is not the same thing as

relying on the bible. If you believe the bible to be the word of god, how can you

question it and why do you question it? If it is not the word of god,

why do you believe it?

 

Do you really believe that anyone who doesn't believe as you do, that Jesus was the

savior and was god, that they will burn in hell for eternity? Why do you believe that?

Since you say that you will question the bible, did you question your belief in Jesus?

Will you answer these questions? bill

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Ravenstar - great post.

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If he doesn't consider himself a Christian, then I guess he isn't one. Christians can't stop talking about Christ, but it seems he doesn't put any faith in the character of Christ, just the Bible - whatever that means. We'll see.

Yeah, I'm lost on that one myself.  Maybe something else is eating at ole Cliff.

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