The Craziness Of Genesis In The Bible

[bornagainathiest]

i thot adam and eve saw and talked to god? or even cain?

 

Yes Pratt, but if you look closely you'll see that once Adam and Eve sinned, they couldn't bear to look upon god... face-to-face. 

 

The Jews believed that no sinful human being can look upon god's face and live.  To them, this means instant death. 

 

So A&E hid themselves from him in the bushes and undergrowth of the Garden of Eden.  If you read on you'll see that nowhere in the Old Testament (from Genesis 3 : 7 & 8 all the way to the last verse of Malachi) is god's face seen by anyone.  Ok, the likes Cain and Abraham and Noah hear his disembodied voice or hear him speaking out smoke or fire or a burning bush -  but his face is never seen.   For example, when Moses went up Mount Sinai, this happened...

 

Exodus 33:18-23

¹⁸ Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

¹⁹ And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

²⁰ But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

²¹ Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.

²² When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

²³ Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

 

And this is core of the Genesis-based contradiction that I've put to Margee.

Why is it that, in the New Testament, Paul and John are so adamant that nobody has seen god, when the Old Testament clearly says that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, to be in his presence?  In fact, John doubles up on his error when he writes this...

 

John 3:5

⁵ Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

Meaning that both Enoch and Elijah must have been baptized and must have received the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of god... centuries before Jesus was crucified and raised. Otherwise, the moment they caught sight of god's face, they'd be destroyed!   Yet scripture tells us that Elijah wasn't killed by being in god's presence and seeing him face to face. (See below.)

 

John also wrote this...

 

John 3:13

¹³ No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

The Son of Man... a.k.a. Jesus himself. 

So what about Enoch and Elijah?  Where did they go to? 

Genesis 5:24 says that Enoch walked... "with god" ...and 2 Kings 2 : 11 & 12 says...

 

¹¹ As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. ¹² Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

 

So Pratt, here's the question.

 

If Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, why does John say that no one has gone into heaven, except Jesus? 

 

 

 

To make matters worse, the other gospel writers all agree that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the top of a high mountain (see Matthew 17, Mark 9:2-13 and Luke 9:28-36), indicating that being in heaven and seeing god's face hadn't killed Elijah - when it should have!

 

In fact Elijah hasn't been destroyed at all.

He appeared to the disciples in his perfected, glorified and regenerated resurrection body - before Jesus' death and resurrection! 

 

This is 100% proof poz that Elijah HAD entered heaven and HAD seen god... directly contradicting John's testimony about what Jesus said to Nicodemus!

 

Contradiction?  You bet! 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Geezer]

The book of Genesis must be interpreted allegorically. If it is interpreted literally the intended meaning and message of the stories will be lost.

 

al·le·go·ry

n. pl.al·le·go·ries

1.

a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

 

 

 

 Well, duh. Everyone but Christian fundamentalists seems to recognize an allegorical story when they encounter one. The fundies are about the only ones I know of that totally miss the allegorical nature of Genesis and insist that Genesis should be interpreted literally.  

 

[sdelsolray]

The book of Genesis must be interpreted allegorically. If it is interpreted literally the intended meaning and message of the stories will be lost.

 

al·le·go·ry

n. pl.al·le·go·ries

1.

a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

 

 

 

 Well, duh. Everyone but Christian fundamentalists seems to recognize an allegorical story when they encounter one. The fundies are about the only ones I know of that totally miss the allegorical nature of Genesis and insist that Genesis should be interpreted literally.  

 

JRR Tolkien wrote (in the prelude to Lord of the Rings):

 

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

 

His point, of course, is who is in control of the interpretation?

[GoddessOfWisdom]

 

The book of Genesis must be interpreted allegorically. If it is interpreted literally the intended meaning and message of the stories will be lost.

 

al·le·go·ry

n. pl.al·le·go·ries

1.

a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

 

 

 

 Well, duh. Everyone but Christian fundamentalists seems to recognize an allegorical story when they encounter one. The fundies are about the only ones I know of that totally miss the allegorical nature of Genesis and insist that Genesis should be interpreted literally.  

 

JRR Tolkien wrote (in the prelude to Lord of the Rings):

 

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

 

His point, of course, is who is in control of the interpretation?

 

 

I love this quote now. Thank you.

[mymistake]

The book of Genesis must be interpreted allegorically. If it is interpreted literally the intended meaning and message of the stories will be lost.

 

al·le·go·ry

n. pl.al·le·go·ries

1.

a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

 

 

 

 Well, duh. Everyone but Christian fundamentalists seems to recognize an allegorical story when they encounter one. The fundies are about the only ones I know of that totally miss the allegorical nature of Genesis and insist that Genesis should be interpreted literally.  

 

 

I think the ship has sailed on the intended meaning in Genesis.  Those stories have been rewritten and edited so many times that all we can do is guess.  We can be sure that there were multiple authors and that originally they were pagan polytheists.  They were probably Canaanite.  Beyond that we mostly have to stick to the obvious.  Attempts to explain rainbows are attempts to explain why there are rainbows and so on.

[Margee]

Thank you guys soooo much for all the input into this thread!! 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/58478-spencer-and-the-godling/

[Lerk]

The book of Genesis must be interpreted allegorically. If it is interpreted literally the intended meaning and message of the stories will be lost.

 

al·le·go·ry

n. pl.al·le·go·ries

1.

a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

 

 

 

 Well, duh. Everyone but Christian fundamentalists seems to recognize an allegorical story when they encounter one. The fundies are about the only ones I know of that totally miss the allegorical nature of Genesis and insist that Genesis should be interpreted literally.  

 

Maybe, but if I had been taught all of my life that it was allegorical, I might never have realized that there are no gods.

 

Besides, the first part seems to me to be pure mythology, speculative explanations for real things. If we treat them as allegory, then we assign merit to them.

[Denyoz]

I am proud to say that the real Noah's Ark is now parked by Highway 17 near Cobden, Ontario, Canada.

They turned it into a restaurant.

 

[centauri]

So what about Enoch and Elijah?  Where did they go to? 

Genesis 5:24 says that Enoch walked... "with god" ...and 2 Kings 2 : 11 & 12 says...

 

¹¹ As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. ¹² Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

 

So Pratt, here's the question.

 

If Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, why does John say that no one has gone into heaven, except Jesus? 

 

 

As an aside, I've encountered apologists that attempt to get around this problem by claiming that Elijah went up into the "heavens" meaning atmosphere, not the heaven where God dwells.

Where God dwells is sometimes referred to as the "third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2), and the claim is that Enoch and Elijah were put in a form of stasis to be animated when Jesus returns.

In other words they occupy a lower level of heaven.

It's not a good apologetic but be prepared to run into it.

 

Third Heaven;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven

[pratt]

BAA,,,,

 

i always thought peter saw elijah and moses at the mount of whatever shit,,,,,,

 

if it wasnt them, who did pet see?????

[bornagainathiest]

 

So what about Enoch and Elijah?  Where did they go to? 

Genesis 5:24 says that Enoch walked... "with god" ...and 2 Kings 2 : 11 & 12 says...

 

¹¹ As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. ¹² Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

 

So Pratt, here's the question.

 

If Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, why does John say that no one has gone into heaven, except Jesus? 

 

 

As an aside, I've encountered apologists that attempt to get around this problem by claiming that Elijah went up into the "heavens" meaning atmosphere, not the heaven where God dwells.

Where God dwells is sometimes referred to as the "third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2), and the claim is that Enoch and Elijah were put in a form of stasis to be animated when Jesus returns.

In other words they occupy a lower level of heaven.

It's not a good apologetic but be prepared to run into it.

 

Third Heaven;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven

 

 

Yes, I know Centauri.  (Sighs.)

 

But this doesn't hold water.

 

Paul says that he was caught up to the third heaven, but he also says that he doesn't know if he was in the body or out of the body when this happened.  (2 Cor 12: 1 - 4)  Well, the answer is in scripture.  Acts 9 never says that Saul disappeared from sight on the road to Damascus.  The men who were travelling never lost sight of him.  They heard the sound of Jesus speaking to Saul but that's all.

 

So the answer is that Saul/Paul was NOT in the body, he was in the spirit.

He did not physically leave the Earth and visit this 3rd heaven.  Further confirmation of this can be seen in 2 Cor 12: 1. "I must go on boasting.  Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord."  See that?  Paul is describing nothing more than a vision/revelation, given to him by God.  His body did not leave the Earth and travel anywhere - not even for an instant.

 

The Koine (NT Greek) helps us out too.

In 2 Cor 12:1 vision = views optasias [apparitions] and revelations = apokalupseis [from-coverings]

Which corresponds with the experience of the apostle John on Patmos.  He never left that island, but experienced an apokalupsis, a 'from-covering' or unveiling. (See Rev 1:1)

 

And what's it a vision of?

An 'atmospheric' 3rd heaven where prophets are kept in cryogenic storage or a vision of... PARADISE?

"How he [saul/Paul] was caught up into paradise..." (2 Cor 12: 4)

 

So where is this paradise?  Again, scripture tells us - all we have to do is look.

Revelation 2:7

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.  To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."

 

Revelation 22: 1 - 4 clearly describes the Tree of Life as being in the New Jerusalem, the heavenly city God has prepeared for the faithful.  So Paul was caught up (saw a vision of) to this paradise and saw things that it is not lawful to tell.  He didn't visit any kind of atmospheric abode. 

 

But now, look closely at verses 4 and 5, Centauri!

"They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night.  They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord will give them light.  And they will reign for ever and ever."

 

See how this fits with an Elijah aglow with glorious splendor?

See how this makes better sense than the atmospheric alternative?

 

Paul saw a vision of 3rd heaven.  This was a vision of paradise, not anything atmospheric.  Paradise is the heavenly city, where the Tree of Life is found.  In this paradise the saved see God's face.  He gives them light.  What happened to Moses when he came close to God on Mount Sinai?  His face glowed brightly.  This happens to all those who see God's face.  Which explains why Luke describes Elijah being in glorious splendor. 

 

Therefore, Elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Therefore he did enter into God's presence.

Therefore he did see God's face.

 

And so Jesus is giving Nicodemus false information.

 

I rest my case.

 

BAA

[bornagainathiest]

BAA,,,,

 

i always thought peter saw elijah and moses at the mount of whatever shit,,,,,,

 

if it wasnt them, who did pet see?????

 

Pratt,

 

Please re-read my posts and you'll see that I'm making the case that what Jesus said to Nicodemus (no one has gone into heaven except me) was false.

 

I'm saying that Elijah and Moses were both there on the mountain with Jesus, but in their glorified and resurrected physical bodies.  When Jesus was raised from the dead he didn't become a ghost or receive a second, new body - his own physical body was resurrected in a new immortal and glorious form.

 

This is what is promised to all Christian believers.  They will be raised from the dead - imperishable.  That's described in Revelation and is supposed to happen on Judgement day.  But the Bible is full of holes and contradictions.  This, "nobody has entered heaven except me" claim by Jesus is one such contradiction. 

 

I've just presented my case, saying that because Elijah and Moses were seen in glorious splendor, they must have entered heaven and seen God (the Father's face) - in direct contradiction to Jesus' testimony to Nicodemus.

 

Does that help?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Ravenstar]

Wait a minute.. if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day... how were there days at all?

[mymistake]

Wait a minute.. if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day... how were there days at all?

 

Because there were evenings and mornings even without the sun.  God moves in mysterious ways.  

 

 

Seriously this shows just how clueless people were back then.  Things that happened close up are important.  Things that happen millions of miles away must not be important.  Stars were just an afterthought to these people.  The sun is a light in the sky that does what it is told to do (by the gods) depending on the time of the day.  The sun didn't cause morning.  Morning caused the sun to rise.  The sun has a job to do and the sun better get it done on time.  The sun didn't cause evening.  Evening scared the sun away.

[Scottsman]

Wait a minute.. if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day... how were there days at all?

Didn't you hear? The sun isn't our source of light. It merely indicates that it is day and the moon indicates that it is night. Duh.

 

[/sarcasm]

[Lerk]

 

Wait a minute.. if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day... how were there days at all?

Didn't you hear? The sun isn't our source of light. It merely indicates that it is day and the moon indicates that it is night. Duh.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

 

But, but, but /raises hand/... sometimes the moon is up in the daytime. Is the angel pushing it hung over on those days?

[RipVanWinkle]

"Wait a minute.. if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day... how were there days at all?"

 

Why, it is obvious! God put all light on one side in the sky and the dark of the other side. The he

slides the sky back forth from one side to the other causing night and day. It's just plain logic.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

I would love for some of you wonderful bible scholars here on Ex-c to rip this book apart once and for all!!

 

I somehow missed seeing this thread for a month.

 

Anyway, I'm not a bible scholar, but FWIW I've been going chapter by chapter through Genesis on my blog ripping as I go. It's been about six months and I'm not even half way through, however.

[pawn]

I somehow missed seeing this thread for a month.

 

Anyway, I'm not a bible scholar, but FWIW I've been going chapter by chapter through Genesis on my blog ripping as I go. It's been about six months and I'm not even half way through, however.

Bravo. Excellent work. I hope you keep that site up for awhile. I will be directing people there who need an eye-opener.

[Margee]

You guys ROCK!!!

 

I may not be able to post as often, but I am reading and studying all this. Thank you to everyone who is contributing to keep this thread alive!!! This helps me soooooooo much.

 

The first book of the babble is stuuuuuuupid!!!!!! STUPID old testament Gawd.   Once this book falls apart ...there is NO NEED for a savior!!!

 

We were not born in sin!! That is such good news today!!!!!!!!  

 

Big *hugs* to everyone today

 

Sincerely, Margee

[duderonomy]

I wish this thread were pinned. Margee is right; without Genesis, the whole thing unravels.

[Scottsman]

You guys ROCK!!!

 

I may not be able to post as often, but I am reading and studying all this. Thank you to everyone who is contributing to keep this thread alive!!! This helps me soooooooo much.

 

The first book of the babble is stuuuuuuupid!!!!!! STUPID old testament Gawd.   Once this book falls apart ...there is NO NEED for a savior!!!

 

We were not born in sin!! That is such good news today!!!!!!!!  

 

Big *hugs* to everyone today

 

Sincerely, Margee

Actually, we are conceived in sin. That means sex is a sin and miscarriages result in someone going to hell.

[themonkeyman]

I never understood why we needed a Savior,  Like seriously a God who can do anything needed to murder himself to forgive me ?  Sounds a bit like he needs medication lol.

 

Think about it - Logically

 

I go and tell my friend I think they are a dick - So my friend in order to forgive me decides to blow his head off with a Gun?  That sounds perfectly logical.

 

The next Problem is thus

 

So my friend blown his head off with a Gun,  Surely I should feel remorse and want my friend back - Christians dont feel guilty of the sins they do on a daily basis - Most will never stop sinning but sure Jesus is some guy they have never met so they dont care.  The classic 'Out of sight out of mind'  It would be different I I took one of their children and murdered them.

 

With regards to original sin - Hardly man made when God is bound to have known otherwise he was clueless that his creation would fall.  And if God knew anything why did he need to wait 2,000 years before sending himself again.  Why not either A) Remove the tree or Come to earth immediately and die for us.

 

Something does not add up here.

[Margee]

I never understood why we needed a Savior,  Like seriously a God who can do anything needed to murder himself to forgive me ?  Sounds a bit like he needs medication lol.

 

Think about it - Logically

 

I go and tell my friend I think they are a dick - So my friend in order to forgive me decides to blow his head off with a Gun?  That sounds perfectly logical.

 

The next Problem is thus

 

So my friend blown his head off with a Gun,  Surely I should feel remorse and want my friend back - Christians dont feel guilty of the sins they do on a daily basis - Most will never stop sinning but sure Jesus is some guy they have never met so they dont care.  The classic 'Out of sight out of mind'  It would be different I I took one of their children and murdered them.

 

With regards to original sin - Hardly man made when God is bound to have known otherwise he was clueless that his creation would fall.  And if God knew anything why did he need to wait 2,000 years before sending himself again.  Why not either A) Remove the tree or Come to earth immediately and die for us.

 

Something does not add up here.

 

John 10-11 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Since sinlessness is impossible due to our fallen nature what exactly Jesus meant by saying this?

 

This is all a bunch of contradictions as far as I can see now. Jesus came to 'free' us from our 'sinful ' nature and yet, one gets born again and it doesn't seem to go away. Look down at the alters Sunday after Sunday. Filled with people balling their eyes out becaiuse of the 'sin' that is still in their life. I went down every week with my list???

 

Read this and see the contradictions.......

 

This is why Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," (John 3:3).  To be born again means that something new has happened in us.  This "something" is the change in us that is the result of regeneration.  "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17).  The old things were the sinful passions and desires.  Our enslavement to them is broken when we are born again.  Furthermore, once we are born again, we are no longer our own and we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins......

 

...And then, last but not least, this wonderful scripture...."And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment," (John 16:8).  This conviction of sins occurs in the believer and is a method that the Lord uses to help us stop sinning.  We are not saved so that we are free to go out and do that which is wrong.  We are saved so that we might bring glory to God and demonstrate the work of regeneration in us as we turned from our sinful ways. 

 

Where's Buff?...she's get a charge out of this!!!!