I Am Very Worried Now Again. Fear Of Hell. (Rant)

[themonkeyman]

Hey,

 

I am just going to offer some of my thoughts.  I have annotated your questions so I will try and cover all bases in my reply.

 

Firstly I would consider speaking to a secular Psychiatrist who is able to give you some good advice and possibly some medications as you seam to be living in pure terror.

 

Understand that the God that you see of the Bible is incompatable with the God you were taught about - Churches and Christians have no problems picking some passages and ignoring others when trying to get a point across.  Most dont even realise they are being ignorant.

 

For God to be loving Jesus would not need to exist as this Salvation means that God himself has put a distance between us and him and he needed someone to take the fall.  This is the true God,  This same God created Hell to keep people away from himself and his 'Pureness'.

 

Ask your granny next time you see her that if God created Hell then how do we know God is just in his decisions?  And also how is it possible to say that God loves us if our default destination is Hell.

 

See if we read Genesis 6:5-6 we read that God had regrets about humanity and was ready to wipe us out if it was not for the wierdo Noah. 

 

You believe this is all like a Game but I dont think it is - In a Game its true you have winners and losers but the only way to be either is to play the Game.  Now forgive me but I never asked to be born and I don't think you did either.  So how is that fair to send someone into a Game that they did not want to play!

 

With regards to Hell etc we all know his backstory so I dont need to elaborate on its translational issues and underlying meanings but lets look directly into the book of Revelation.

 

 

 

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

Ok I am no theologian here but lets take this at face value,  Are you unbelieving?  Are you cowardly?  Are you a Murderer?  Yes we can say that everyone here is non-believing but is it unbelief or is it the fact that we have searched and found nothing.  Unbelief means that you don't want to find something!

 

See we also do not see that these people will be tortured or set on fire.  They will be thrown into a lake of sulfur?  Why sulfur of all things?  And the biggest question is how did these people know the element of sulfur all those years ago look at Sodom and Gomorrah?  And lastly a direct reference is made to 'The Second Death'

 

Heck if you want to take the 'Lake of Fire' as a physical place then lets take the whole of Revelation as Literal so lets believe that there is actually 7 lamp stands in heaven interesting considering God is the Light so what do we need a lamp for?  And why lamp stands?

 

Some other points to ponder on are the fact that Jesus never said this but 'Some Guy' named John.  There is no evidence strong enough to conclude an Author and up until AD 500 the Revelation of John was disputed so many times,  Even today its still disputed - This is because the Symbolisms and Metaphors can be matched to pretty much anything ever in existence.

 

If this gives you some encouragement on your path,  The Apocalypse of Peter mentioned a discussion with Jesus in which Jesus said that everyone in the end would be saved but not to tell people otherwise they would sin without worry and ignorance.  The other thing about the Apocalypse of Peter is that it was considered genuine up until AD 500 when it was replaced with Revelations because the book of revelations matched up.  - Not because it was in any way more reliable.

 

The next point I make is that no where in the Bible is it mentioned that anyone goes to Heaven!  Jesus mentioned Paradise and the 'Kingdom' which was the new Jerusalem.

 

In regards to the status of hell I cannot say for sure however from the massive sources I have read I would say that according to the Bible more people will be in hell than in heaven.  This sounds correct however Jesus made it explicitly clear that most will goto the 'Second Death' or something to this matter.  

 

My opinion is agnostic - I don't know for sure either way and I am on the fence,  I can say with certainty that the God painted in the Old and New Testament is not the God I believe may exist.

 

With regards to your Granny ask her who taught her about hell!  -  My Granny does it too.

 

Ok with regards to Demons and a Young Kid in Hell how the fuck can that woman Angelica know?  God said no one would goto either without passing through Judgement so if this is correct then she herself is going to hell!  Get the picture here - In saying that she knows this implies that she is ignoring the entire book of revelations!

 

With regards to the pokemon stuff I cannot say what a Demon looks like - A Demon is known as a fallen angel so I would say they were probably very beautiful!

 

I know this may be no help at all but if you get something or someone else gets something out of it then it will be worth it.  Hope this helps but number 1 keep asking questions it will click with you eventually.  Try getting a copy of the SAB!

 

 

 

 

[ExCBooster]

AzariaC7, relax for a bit, and indulge in some research. There have been a few "fear of hell" threads around here: here's one, from a while ago.

 

While you're chewing on the information there - nice linkage to the history of the idea of Hell, and several arguments that Hell makes Christianity's premises self-refuting, and so on, maybe try this exercise:

 

Imagine that, in an alternate universe, almost exactly like ours, you were born, but in Japan. Japan is 98% non-Christian. Almost everybody is registered at a Shinto shrine, whether they're active in the belief system or not - Shinto doesn't actually care that much what you believe, really, it's all about practice, instead, which is fortunate, because they DO know how to party down. YOU would likely be non-Christian, too. Probably at least nominally Shinto/Buddhist. You would be registered at a shrine at birth, and at age 3 or 7, on or near November 15, or thereabouts, you would put on your first fancy kimono and visit a local shrine. Note also the completely different attitude towards children: rather than naturally wayward, in Shinto, little kids are culturally considered pure and at least semi-divine, rather than stained by sin (the whole concept of "sin" in the exact sense is actually unique to the Abrahamic religions: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity). Why, yes, this IS very much connected with a very different attitude toward sex, yes, there are in fact Shinto religious festivals dedicated to fertility, and yes...that is indeed a Sacred Giant Hot-Pink Dong Float wobbling off down the street. (Um. NSFW, obviously.)

 

Why this weird diversion into wobbly pink street festivals with themed candies? Would this sort of thing ever be a Christian festival? Heck no. Is it alien to your world-view as it stands now? You bet. The thing is, if you were raised in a Shinto society, rather than a Christian one, you'd be one of those women gleefully getting your picture taken at the festival. That would be your normal. It would seem immature and petty to be uncomfortable with it. Nigh incomprehensible, even. My point is, if you "grew up believing" something else, Hell wouldn't even be an issue. You DID grow up believing Christianity, but your options are wide open, and belief does not coincide with truth. If it's just an accident of culture, it's a fable, or a thing people do. Somewhere, the pink dong float waits in a shed for next year's festival, and the world gets along just fine without even considering the existence of Hell.

 

TLDR version: if you weren't indoctrinated in a belief, would you still believe it? If your answer is no, then the belief is cultural, and not really "true."

[Denyoz]

Hell is a state of mind, not a place on a map where you can go to.  If you are afraid of it, then you are already there.  Fear is hell.  Is it that bad?  You are still alive and breathing aren't you?  Well it doesn't get any worse than that.  Feel it... and transform it. 

[wndwalkr99]

A lot of unbelievers hate God for this eternal suffering

 

Actually, no. Not at all.

 

Unbelievers don't think that there's a god there to hate in the first place. I can no more hate a god than I can hate the spaghetti monster or Sasquatch. They just don't exist.

[ExCanadianReformed]

Sorry for your anxiety. Indoctrination of children is a terrible thing and you're experiencing why.

 

My question for you would be:

 

Who's "Hell" are you afraid of?

 

Let me explain.

 

I grew up a Reformed (Calvinist) protestant. We believed that anyone not chosen (in the womb) by God was going to Hell no matter what they tried to do in life to change that. This is the awful teaching of predestination. In this case you're almost all screwed anyway. There's NOTHING you can do about avoiding THIS hell.

 

But there's many different ideas of Hell and how you can get there! Many Christians don't believe in Hell at all. The Roman Catholic Church (billions of members) barely believes in Hell - regardless of what their official doctrines may teach. But wait! What about Viking hell? Mormon hell? Muslim hell? 

 

So who's version of "hell" are you worried about?

 

Keep asking the questions you've already started and you'll realize that this is nonsense that you're better off avoiding. Stay strong!

[ExCBooster]

 

A lot of unbelievers hate God for this eternal suffering

Actually, no. Not at all.

 

Unbelievers don't think that there's a god there to hate in the first place. I can no more hate a god than I can hate the spaghetti monster or Sasquatch. They just don't exist.

 

This right here is a heck of a good point.

Research might be your best friend right now, AzariaC7. Maybe you're at the point that you feel that God, as described to you culturally, just cannot be, as a moral being. But, maybe it would do you good to read up on science and history, and nail that point home - that God just cannot be, as any sort of being at all. There's no reason to be angry at, or agonize over the (fictional) decisions of a (fictional) being. God is a mascot of the Abrahamic faiths, in the same way as Count Chocula is a mascot for sugary breakfast cereal. I'm not saying that in a trivializing way, either. A good look at the historical evidence (some of it's fossilized in parts of the Bible itself) shows that that mascot statement can be taken in the most precisely literal way. Another way to look at it is to research other religions - the two other major Abrahamic faith families, Judaism and Islam, have very different ideas of what this God even is, let alone differences between Christian sects: three persons in one, or is that blasphemy of the highest order? Do you need a priest or not? Do you need intercession? What about Saints? Can God speak to you, personally? What, exactly, does God require? Is a capybara a "fish" for Lent? Already looking bad for God, as a self-consistent concept...

 

And theeeen we get to religions outside of this tradition. A lot of cultures have a completely different definition for "A God" or "divinity" if they even have a concept of it at all. Shinto - animist, and rampantly polytheist: everything is at least a little bit a God (whether the term kami can be accurately translated as God, however, is problematic - spirits?). Buddhism - accepts the idea of gods - except for the rather more atheist sects that consider the concept of the divine at all to be maya, illusion, and nice, but a barrier to enlightenment.

 

So, by inductive reasoning, we can extrapolate that truly universal concepts - colours, earth, sky, language - are shared or at least translatable between cultures. Concepts that are unique to a culture are not independent of that culture. The concept of (a/ any) God is culturally bound, and therefore not the transcendent, universal force you have been led to believe. God is a cultural artefact, not a being.

[themonkeyman]

I lost fear of hell by studying the Bible. Did you know there is no doctrine of eternal punishment in the Old Testament? The words translated Hell there almost all mean death or Hades, the place where dead people go. There is no fire, no eternal torment, no demons. It's so boring.  In the Old Testament, Satan, in Job, is not a fallen angel. He is a prosecuting attorney in God's court of law. God's laws promise reward or punishment here on earth (Deuteronomy) not some invisible place we live after we are dead.

 

Guess what there is  no doctrine of eternal spiritual reward in the Old Testament either, oops. In the OLd Testament, heaven is where God lives, not people, except maybe Enoch and Elijah. Oh yeah, and exactly where are Hell and Heaven?In some alternate dimension? We certainly know Hell is not "down there" and Heaven is not "up there."  Maybe they exist in our minds?

 

Something happened between the Old and New Testament. There became an urgent need for people who were treating the Jews very badly to be punished, but the Jews were helpless to punish them themselves. What better way than to say "Don't worry folks, someday they will be repayed for their evil and the people they killed will be rewarded for their faithfulness to God."  Heaven and Hell are the product of wishful thinking. Plus, the New Testament version of Hell often had the same name as the perpetually burning garbage dump.   What better place to send the people who are treating you like trash? Or was that just metaphorical?

 

I have a problem with saying that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven as its a very vague play on words to make that dissertation.  We were told that they were 'Caught Up' and 'Taken' but no one knows where.   Also if these two fine folks managed to get to heaven - That means anyone can accomplish heaven without the need for a savior you just gotta find favor with God e.g. be a good person?

 

Understand your vision of hell is based upon the Dantes devine comedy opinion.  I goto the Health Suite at my Gym several times per week and I will agree that although the Sauna is hot you do get used to 120 C 160 F So all I know is that if there was fire then at least its warm.

[AzariaC7]

 

 wndwalkr99 (correct me if I spelled your name wrong), what I meant is that, the insane fiery/eternal Hell teaching has made people turn to atheism or became unbelievers. Some hate God for this and call him a tyrant, monster, etc. 

 

[AzariaC7]

Sorry for your anxiety. Indoctrination of children is a terrible thing and you're experiencing why.

 

My question for you would be:

 

Who's "Hell" are you afraid of?

 

Let me explain.

 

I grew up a Reformed (Calvinist) protestant. We believed that anyone not chosen (in the womb) by God was going to Hell no matter what they tried to do in life to change that. This is the awful teaching of predestination. In this case you're almost all screwed anyway. There's NOTHING you can do about avoiding THIS hell.

 

But there's many different ideas of Hell and how you can get there! Many Christians don't believe in Hell at all. The Roman Catholic Church (billions of members) barely believes in Hell - regardless of what their official doctrines may teach. But wait! What about Viking hell? Mormon hell? Muslim hell? 

 

So who's version of "hell" are you worried about?

 

Keep asking the questions you've already started and you'll realize that this is nonsense that you're better off avoiding. Stay strong!

That's crazy! Well.. I'm scared of the Hell my grandma told me about. I've heard the Muslim/Islam hell is far worse but the Christian hell still scares me. God can't be like that. I'm sorry that you grew up believing in that doctrine. If I grew up believing your beliefs, I would take months, maybe years, to recover from my anxiety. The hell fear is worse with anxiety.

[gall]

 

A lot of unbelievers hate God for this eternal suffering

Actually, no. Not at all.

 

Unbelievers don't think that there's a god there to hate in the first place. I can no more hate a god than I can hate the spaghetti monster or Sasquatch. They just don't exist.

 

 

I might actually believe in sasquatch over christian god... primarily because there are crappy blurry photos of some weird stuff in the woods (note I do not actually believe this) and in christian faith there are just drawings and paintings of some white guy with a beard and kind eyes. I know there were a lot of "white" israelite decendents in that era...what a joke.

[Aggie]

It's a pernicious dogma.  I'm sorry you have to go through this.  It occasionally tries to come back to visit on me too.  So you have to chase it away.  Doubt the doubtful or be tortured forever?  This makes no sense either rationally or ethically.  

Here's a quote from Leo Tolstoy I love.  While he remained a theist, Tolstoy saw certain doctrines of traditional Christianity for what they are-- both manipulative and immoral.  

Indeed no other faith has ever preached things so incompatible with reason and contemporary knowledge, or ideas so immoral as those taught by Church Christianity.  …There can be nothing as immoral as those dreadful teachings according to which an angry and vengeful God punishes everyone for the sin of Adam, or that he sent his son to earth to save us, knowing beforehand that men would murder him and be damned for it.  Again it is absurd to suggest that man’s salvation from sin lies in baptism, or in believing that all these things actually happened, and that the son of God was killed in order to save people and that those who do not believe it will be punished by God with eternal torment.

[AzariaC7]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your help. I'm happy, but what I'm afraid is that if God is really there, he'll take my joy away. I'm afraid of me, my loved ones and even strangers being damned. I don't like the anxious feeling. I'm happy that I am not alone though. :-)

[mymistake]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your help. I'm happy, but what I'm afraid is that if God is really there, he'll take my joy away.

 

 

That is just the way the "God" character was written.  It's suppose to control people through fear and emotional blackmail.  It's suppose to make you obey the king and the priests.  Once you learn how to get past your anxiety you will find it empowering.  Hang in there.

[amateur]

"Why, yes, this IS very much connected with a very different attitude toward sex, yes, there are in fact Shinto religious festivals dedicated to fertility, and yes...that is indeed a Sacred Giant Hot-Pink Dong Float wobbling off down the street. (Um. NSFW, obviously.)"

 

If xianity had penis parades I could take it more seriously.  

 

Really.  Watch the video.  Those people are having fun!  FUN!!!  They are having FUN during a RELIGIOUS festival!!!  

 

What the hell is wrong with xians to muck religion all up with SIN and GUILT and DAMNATION.  Oh, and TITHING.

 

The fact that each of us is here, existing, and breathing, and seeing and thinking and talking is an absolute miracle.  Celebrate it!

[ExCBooster]

Another scary thing I heard... I heard Pokemon, Bakugan, Dora, and Dragon Ball Z are evil shows. Some say it has evil and satanism in it. According to Angelica Zambarno (I spelled her last name wrong), there's a 8 year old boy in Hell for watching those shows and there are demons that look like Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z characters torturing the boy. I cringe at that. My cousin's favorite show is Dragon Ball Z and I just fear for him. I know it sounds silly and many of you might laugh or scoff at this but it terrifies me so much. I'm terrorized a lot and my mind is so messed up. My head hurts a lot for it. 

We can take this one apart, too, if you want.

Have you watched any of these shows (or played related games)? Demons that look like Pokemon would be rather... adorable, actually. Meet Pikachu (in more depth). That's right... it grows stronger with the power of... friendship. Pokemon's possibly the least-evil thing out there. It's about friends, and teamwork, literally. The show came from a video game, where you catch and raise wild Pokemon, and can test them in matches against other trainer's Pokemon. Treat them badly, and don't make friends with your Pokemon, and you won't do well. Being nice is a gameplay mechanic, and the tv show is adapted from the game, with added plot.

Bakugan and Dora are both merchandise-driven kid's shows, with moral lessons in them, and Dragon Ball Z actually has quite the artistic pedigree. Dragon Ball is based, explicitly, on Superman (child survivor of an advanced alien civilization falls to Earth and is raised by humans) - in turn explicitly based on Moses. Yes, that Moses, as in The Bible Moses - as well as Journey to the West, one of the great novels of the Chinese civilization. (For anime fans, that's why Son Goku has a tail and an extensible staff: he's literally the monkey king). Dragon Ball Z is practically Shakespeare, compared to most dreck on TV. I don't know why they have a problem with it, it's also only two artistic generations removed from the Bible itself.

 

I'd chalk this all up, AzariaC7, to people being afraid of what they don't understand, and what they imagine threatens them, culturally, even if it's not true at all.

[kolaida]

Yeah, I don't get the whole anime is evil thing though my Mom used to be that way.  Then oddly enough, was okay with Death Note despite a few years before not allowing me or my brother to watch Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z.  

 

What I really don't understand is how Dora got lumped into this. We're talking about Dora the Explorer, right? The show aimed at kids under five? 

 

Also, who is this Angelica Zambrano to claim all this? She said she saw an eight year old boy in Hell for watching some cartoon shows? Really, an EIGHT year old boy? No, this girl is ridiculous. Even most Christian sites have claimed her to be a "false prophet." The mind is powerful and while she MIGHT actually believe all of it (or just really be after fame and fortune) that doesn't make it true. 

[Lerk]

wndwalkr99 (correct me if I spelled your name wrong), what I meant is that, the insane fiery/eternal Hell teaching has made people turn to atheism or became unbelievers. Some hate God for this and call him a tyrant, monster, etc.

 

If the Hell teaching makes people become unbelievers, it is because they know it cannot be true. If Hell is not real, then the New Testament is not true, and the god it describes isn't real.

 

When you say "some hate God for this", that may be true, but if you actually hate God then you must believe in him. You can't really hate a fictional character. Well, maybe you can in a sense, but the villain in a movie may make you have feelings of hate, yet you know it isn't real. The god in the Bible is only different from a movie villain in that a lot of people think he's real.

 

So you're talking about two different classes of people here: people who have realized, because the teaching about Hell makes no sense, that there's nothing to it (and therefore no reason to be afraid), and secondly, people who realize that the idea of Hell is evil, but who still believe that Hell and god are real, so they hate god for creating such a place but at the same time are terrified because if god is real, it means he will send THEM to Hell.

 

You need to get yourself to the first group. The idea of Hell as a place of torment shows up with the Jews between the Old and New Testaments. In the Book of Enoch, a fictional book written about 100 or 200 BC, Hell shows up as a place where bad people go. Before this time, the Jews had no such idea. They got it from the Persians.

 

By the time Jesus came along (if he is even real) in the 1st century AD, the common people among the Jews had accepted this fiction as real. The book of Jude even quotes from the Book of Enoch! But not all Jews believed it. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. They were right! Eternal reward and eternal punishment were merely fiction, or the idea of philosophers.

 

And then Christianity came along and made the idea worse. Now, you didn't even have to be evil to go to Hell -- they said that only Christians got the eternal reward of Heaven and everyone else would go to Hell.

 

My point is that it was a new thing. They had no way of knowing about such a place. Your grandmother has no way of knowing about such a place, either, she only believes it because it is in the Bible.mso she merely believes in something that these Jews 2200 years ago came up with.

 

And the whole idea of god is the same way. It just came from philosophers speculating about how the universe came about, and that speculation got more and more detail as time went on.

 

If a person says they hate god because of Hell, then they are not really unbelievers, and that's a problem. If this is you, please try to understand that god is only made up by people who didn't understand the universe and were trying to figure out how everything got here. And then, Hell was made up by people who wished their oppressors could be punished. The original idea was hopeful, not scary. It said "all of those people who are keeping me down are going to get what's coming to them, and I'm going to be win in the end and get to be happy." But it was still just made up. Don't waste your energy hating god, because he isn't real. Don't waste your energy being afraid of Hell, because there is no such place.

 

This life is the only one you have. Find a way to enjoy it! The person who spends their life as a servant or slave to a god that isn't even there has wasted their life. Live your life to find pleasure in it. That doesn't mean to be irresponsible, because you can wreck your life worse that way than by wasting it worrying about a god, but look for thngs you enjoy, and do them. There is some sadness in every life, but most days should have more joy than sadness. Look for it! Have fun!

[AzariaC7]

Thanks to all of you and to MisterTwo. 

I don't hate God for this Hell thing, I just think when people say he'll burn sinners and those who do not repent for eternity, it just paints a harsh picture of him. I'm still scared a little bit and the fear comes back but at most times, I can control my emotions which is good. Thanks to this site, I'm not that much of a crybaby/scaredy cat/wimp anymore. Thank you so much guys. I hope to research more. 

[bornagainathiest]

Hello Azaria! 

 

I've read thru this thread and find it so sad that the very people who should be loving, nurturing and caring towards you have inflicted this unneccesary pain and mental torment upon you.  The past cannot be undone, but perhaps I can help you out some when it comes to the present and the future?

 

If you'd like that, here are some simple questions that'll help start things off.

 

1.

I'm a logical person, so if I find out that something isn't true or isn't real or isn't factual, that's enough for me to stop worrying about it.  Do you think that this applies to you?  If a certain thing is troubling you and someone can show you that this thing isn't true, would that set your mind at ease?

 

2.

I don't know anything about your background except that which you've written here, but I'd like to know if those close to you are Creationist Christians - especially Young Earth Creationists.  Do you happen to know? 

 

3.

Do you understand science and technology much?

That is, besides using things like digital cameras and computers, electricity and tv, planes, trains and automobiles, do you know how these things work, what makes them work and why?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

[AzariaC7]

bornagainatheist @ Hello! I'm glad you came here. I was waiting for people like you. (The others helped me very much, too, don't worry!, mostly everyone on here

 

To question one, yes. It applies to me, too. But sometime later, the fear comes back unexpectedly and I get sooo anxious about it that I'll even lose my breath. To make my mind at ease, I always come to this site in a hurry to calm down my emotions. 

Question two, my Christian background? I'm from a Pentecostal family. Off topic but, no one in my family is religious but only my grandma. She terrorized me with the stories about God and Hell.

Question three, I understand both a bit. Sorry for sounding dumb, though. 

[ExCBooster]

bornagainatheist @ Hello! I'm glad you came here. I was waiting for people like you. (The others helped me very much, too, don't worry!, mostly everyone on here

 

To question one, yes. It applies to me, too. But sometime later, the fear comes back unexpectedly and I get sooo anxious about it that I'll even lose my breath. To make my mind at ease, I always come to this site in a hurry to calm down my emotions. 

Question two, my Christian background? I'm from a Pentecostal family. Off topic but, no one in my family is religious but only my grandma. She terrorized me with the stories about God and Hell.

Question three, I understand both a bit. Sorry for sounding dumb, though. 

No, no, you're not dumb at all. I think what BAA's getting at is that if you understand how we know everything we need to know to get technology to work, you'll understand better why all that scary hellfire and whatnot is nonsense, and be less afraid, because once you're sure it's bunk, it goes away like a shadow in the light.

[bornagainathiest]

Hi Azaria!

 

ExCB is right... on two counts.

 

First, I'm not saying you're dumb and second, almost everything in science that makes technology work also tells us that the Bible is NOT a true description of the way reality works. 

 

bornagainatheist @ Hello! I'm glad you came here. I was waiting for people like you. (The others helped me very much, too, don't worry!, mostly everyone on here

 

To question one, yes. It applies to me, too. But sometime later, the fear comes back unexpectedly and I get sooo anxious about it that I'll even lose my breath. To make my mind at ease, I always come to this site in a hurry to calm down my emotions. 

 

Question two, my Christian background? I'm from a Pentecostal family. Off topic but, no one in my family is religious but only my grandma. She terrorized me with the stories about God and Hell.

 

Question three, I understand both a bit. Sorry for sounding dumb, though. 

 

I'm going to give your answers some thought and get back to you tomorrow, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[bornagainathiest]

Hello Azaria! 

 

If it's ok with you I'd like you to read on down and also check out some stuff from the Bible as you go. 

While I appreciate that it's hell you're terrified of, I'm going to be asking you to look at the Book of Revelation.  Yes, I know that it's a truly frightening part of the Bible, but sometimes we have to face down your fears - not just to overcome them but also to see that sometimes they just aren't real.

 

I can give you a personal example of how this worked for me - though this wasn't a Bible-related fear.

I used to be total arachnophobe (afraid of spiders) but, thru reading about these critters I learned that my dread of them just wasn't justified.  They were a hundred times smaller than me, almost always looking to stay out of my and biting me was pretty low down on their agenda.  Finding food, spinning webs and mating were their top priorities.  So, why did I fear them so much? 

 

I came to understand that this was an irrational fear.

Being irrational, it made no sense.  It wasn't based upon any bad experience on my part and it was making my life difficult.  So who was in charge here?  Who was running my life?  The fear or me?  Eventually Azaria, I made the firm decision to put my knowledge of spiders into use and face my fear.  That involved picking one up and taking it outside of the house.  I DID do it, but it wasn't easy.  Even now, years later, I have to psych myself up to do it.  But I still do it.  I now understand that there was no real reason for me to fear spiders.  That this fear wasn't based upon anything real.  That I'd been held in mental bondage by something that (as Ex-CBooster nicely puts it) goes away like a shadow, when the light illuminates it. 

 

So, please walk with me and let's shine some light on this issue, ok?

 

(Oh btw, Azaria.  I'll be treating the Bible as if it's true, when I talk about it.  I'm doing this to show that it can't be so, alright?  Scripture just can't stand up under the spotlight of careful scrutiny.)

 

bornagainatheist @ Hello! I'm glad you came here. I was waiting for people like you. (The others helped me very much, too, don't worry!, mostly everyone on here

 

To question one, yes. It applies to me, too. But sometime later, the fear comes back unexpectedly and I get sooo anxious about it that I'll even lose my breath. To make my mind at ease, I always come to this site in a hurry to calm down my emotions. 

 

Yes, I do understand about emotions and the traps they set for us, catching us unawares.

I use the image of Mr. Spock in my profile because he's half-Vulcan and half-human.  So there's a constant battle going on inside him - his human emotions warring with his Vulcan logic.  I can relate to Spock's inner struggle because I've endured it myself.  And I reckon that this inner battle is quite a common thing for people in the process of leaving Christianity behind - just as you are.  Our emotions (especially fear) are at odds with our intellect - so that blind panic shouts down our calm inner voice of reason, rationality and logic. 

 

Now, this is a road that many, if not most of us Ex-Christians here have walked down... so we can empathize with your fears.  Never doubt that!  Azaria, please trust me when I say that there is light at the end of the tunnel.  We are the evidence and proof of it.  We were once fully-committed, highly-motivated 'true' Christian believers - some of us with decades of faith under our belts. (And now safely behind us.) There are ex-Pastors, ex-Lay preachers and ex-Missionaries in this forum.  They've all followed the same route you're going down.  

 

Believe me when I say that I'm so very pleased that this site is of benefit to you.

That's it's prime function.  To be of help to those leaving the darkness of Christian irrationality, hysteria and fear behind.  The fact that this forum calms you is living proof -  a worked example, if you like - that superstitious fear can be beaten by knowledge and facts and logic.  Isn't that something to smile about? 

 

Question two, my Christian background? I'm from a Pentecostal family. Off topic but, no one in my family is religious but only my grandma. She terrorized me with the stories about God and Hell.

 

Ok, here's where we can start employing logic to help defuse your fears.

Let's start with the book of Genesis.  This lays the groundwork that the rest of the Bible is built on.  If that foundation is shown to be false, inaccurate and untrue, it therefore follows that everything else following it is based upon falsehood, inaccuracy and untruth, right?   This is point #1.

 

The second point is the unity of Genesis and Revelation.

In scripture, they're joined at the hip.  In the Bible, they're the flip sides of the same coin.  You can't be a true Christian and not believe in them both.  Now Azaria, please check out Revelation 2:7 and 22:1-5.  What do you see?  These verses say that the Tree of Life is located in Paradise, which is the New Jerusalem.  Now, if we accept that scripture treats the Lake of Fire (Hell) as real, then we also have to accept that scripture treats the New Jerusalem and the Tree as real too.  That's being consistent, isn't it? 

 

Likewise, your grandma would believe equally in the scriptural truth of both Genesis and Revelation, wouldn't she? 

Christians like her accept and believe every word of the Bible, don't they?  No cherry-picking.  All or nothing, right?   If that's so, then a real Tree of Life in Revelation depends on a real Tree of Life in Genesis.  (See Genesis 2:9  and 3: 22) You can't have it any other way.  Agreed?

 

Now for the third point.

If we can see that Genesis isn't true or factual or real, this HAS TO mean that Revelation cannot be true, factual or real either. That's being consistent, isn't it?  It's also being totally logical and rational and reasonable.  If we take point #1 (everything in the Bible depends on Genesis), point #2 (Genesis and Revelation both feature the same Tree of Life) and #3 (if Genesis is false, then Revelation must be false too) and put them together, we're left with a vital question.

 

Is Genesis true?

If it isn't then Genesis is the first in a long line of dominoes. 

If the first one falls, one-by-one... they ALL fall.  If Genesis isn't true, then neither is Exodus, Leviticus and so on, the Gospels, the Epistles and everything... all the way to the last verse of Revelation.  None of the Bible is true.  And, of course, if the Bible isn't true... then Hell isn't real either.  If Hell isn't real this means that you've no rational need to fear it.   Yes.  I accept that your fear of hell is irrational Azaria, but the whole point of our dialog is to use the facts and logic to combat your fear.  To expose it for what it is - an irrational shadow in your life that vanishes once we shine a light upon it.

 

Question three, I understand both a bit. Sorry for sounding dumb, though. 

 

Ummm... I reckon I've gone far enough for now.

 

If you've any questions or there's something I didn't make clear, please let me know. 

When your happy, we'll move on.  When we do that, I'll address the question.  "Is Genesis true?"  I'll cite plenty of easily-veriable scientific evidence that it isn't.  When you see that Genesis cannot be true, cannot be historical and cannot be accurate, it's my hope that you'll then see that Revelation cannot be true.  Then you'll also come to see that the Lake of Fire (Hell) cannot be true or real either.

 

For now, I'll leave you with a little homework.

Revelation 22:3 starts off with this... "No longer will there be any curse."

What do you think this means and to what other part of the Bible do you think this sentence is referring?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[AzariaC7]

bornagainatheist @ Thanks! I read your post and it satisfied me. Off topic, but the reason why I made this post is because a Christian terrified me. They're one of the reasons why I don't want to become religious. I'm sorry if that sounds mean but yeah. I'm going off topic, but most of them on the internet are so judgmental. I don't want to be like them. They bash those who are not religious, those who are atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, and those in other religions. It kinda angers me a bit. I almost went insane when I was religious I admit, I almost went hating on gays but discovered other things and changed my mind. Weren't we all like that when we were.. Idk, religious or Christians? I never admitted that I was a Christian but my grandma and my mom bragged it to other people. It kinda saddened me a lot, because yeah..  It's just that most Christians bother me with Hell and other stuff like that. 

[bornagainathiest]

Well ok, Azaria.

 

If you're satisfied, then I'm happy.  But if you ever get freaked out over hell, just remember that it's only real...

 

IF Genesis really happened just as it's written...

IF God really did make the entire universe in just 144 hours...

IF God really did plant two magical trees in Eden...

IF God really did make a mudman and a ribwoman...

IF God really didn't know beforehand that none of the animals would be a suitable helper for the mudman...

IF God really did use entrapment and put temptation in their way (knowing beforehand that they would fail)...

IF there was a talking snake that tempted them...

IF God really did curse the mudman and the ribwoman before casting them out into the wilderness...

 

and

 

IF those curses will be lifted by God, as described in Revelation 22:3, so that all the saved can freely eat from the Tree of Life.  (There's that link between Genesis and Revelation again!)

 

Now, that's a lot of IF's Azaria, wouldn't you agree?  But all of them must be real and true for there to be a real and true hell.

 

If they keep on bothering you about hell, just smile sweetly at them, nod as if you agree and think about this thread, ok?

 

Keep strong! 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.