megasamurai Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 This is one of the docrines I've heard the most but have heard the least evidence for. I've never read an explicit mention of this in the Bible. The Bible seems to say "If you don't believe in God you will go to hell." instead of the "You go to hell if you want to. Non believers want to go to hell". My thoughts are why am I so defly afraid of hell if I am not a worshipper of Jesus and therefore "choose to go to hell"? Why do I choose to go to a place I don't want to go to. If "hell is a choice" why can I not worship God and not go to hell? Do non believers really want to go to hell? My fear has put so much pain on my life. I would like some answers on how this doctrine came to be and how much it really represents the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 A simple explanation of this doctrine exists - It is a mechanism invented by theists to support their own beliefs, to mitigate their own cognitive dissonance and to boost their own egos. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 It's a way to try to justify that which is not justifiable. They take the doctrine of hell which is not even just punishment to impose on the worst criminal and then have to try to justify it for the ridiculous "sin" of non-belief. Their solution, you made the choice, not god. Think about this. If you are a teller at a bank and someone walks in, points a gun at your head, and says, "Give me the money or I will kill you. You're choice." Is a true choice presented to the teller in that scenario? That scenario is no different than what the Christians present when they say we choose to go to hell. Well, actually it is a bit different because in my scenario, the bank robber and the gun are real. In the "you choose hell" scenario, neither their god nor their hell are real! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 My thoughts are that it seems like something very contrary to human nature to choose to be stir fried. I'd think one's survival instincts would prevent people from jumping into hell even if they thought heaven sucked because we have a natural aversion to pain, especially that much of it. I find hard to believe that every non believer would jump into a pit of fire after death of their own free will. I ponder how people who are traumatized by fear of hell would voluntarily send themselves to hell after they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I always saw this as an attempt to blame the victim for their own punishment by saying they rejected "God". This doctrinal rubbish basically states that people send themselves to hell, God doesn't send them. It doesn't line up with the Bible very well at all. Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him(God), which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. The individual doesn't cast themselves into hell, God does. Be very afraid. God will also send strong delusions to people, ensuring that they perish. 2 Thess 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. God is not simply a bystander with regard to punishment, as so many Christians like to claim. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 I used to believe that God's actions in the Bible were completely unjustified until going through a tough round of forced "spiritual retraining" from people from my former church. Supposedly, God doesn't offer salvation to people after they die because they wouldn't take it if they had the chance. They'd beg God to send them to hell, and that's why people send them to hell. I used to think people begging to be stir fried was absurd, but I'm starting to think 2+2=5. Supposedly, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and atheists are not offered another chance at salvation because they would choose hell anyway if given an opportunity at salvation after death. I've always thought that people would choose whatever's not pain and agony over pain and agony. I just wonder if I'm a borderline maltheist and by this logic wanting to go to hell, why don't I wanna go to hell? Why do I fear it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 This is one of the docrines I've heard the most but have heard the least evidence for. I've never read an explicit mention of this in the Bible. The Bible seems to say "If you don't believe in God you will go to hell." instead of the "You go to hell if you want to. Non believers want to go to hell". My thoughts are why am I so defly afraid of hell if I am not a worshipper of Jesus and therefore "choose to go to hell"? Why do I choose to go to a place I don't want to go to. If "hell is a choice" why can I not worship God and not go to hell? Do non believers really want to go to hell? My fear has put so much pain on my life. I would like some answers on how this doctrine came to be and how much it really represents the Bible. I'm more curious why so many subscribe to the idea of a Christian/atheist dichotomy. I don't have a problem with the idea of the existence of a God. Never have. As I've said elsewhere, it's Jesus I take issue with. Some Christians (though not all or even most!) seem to be uncomfortable addressing the eternal fate of the theist who rejects Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 Was the voluntary damnation doctrine recent or ancient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Worrying about silly shit in the Big Book of Jewish Fairy Tales is quite voluntary. I choose not to give a crap every day! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 I guess it's because the fear is so ingrained in me. I worry about God existing even if some parts of the Bible seem stupid. I hear so many tales of the supernatural it's not funny. I want to be free of my fear of hell. It's just that I'm judged for feeling that a God I believed was fictional was evil and improbable to exist because he supposedly sent people to hell. It's just during my forced "spiritual retraining" I've been forced to believe that damnation is voluntary and it's okay for God to send people to hell because they want to go to hell. My "sentimentality" for these people is just frowned upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 9, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2013 I hear so many tales of the supernatural it's not funny. I think it's funny, but then I'm a cranky old materialist/reductionist curmudgeon. For the sake of argument, even if any of the "supernatural" tales were true, how does that verify the Bible in particular or any other competing magic book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 I just wonder how these stories of a modern day Lazarus happening after a Christian prays occurs. Some people who die allegedly come back to life after about 4 days because someone prayed. I'm unsure how often these events allegedly occur or even if they really occured. Never saw it but heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 An irritating position that I hear too often. Do all Muslims choose to go to hell by believing the Qu'ran? Of course not, they're trying to avoid hell. Do Taoists and Buddhists and Hindus choose to go to hell by believing in reincarnation? Of course not, they're trying to avoid hell (and the karmic cycle) as well. All it takes to want to avoid hell is the most basic self-interest. An invisible, undetectable being sending people to hell for doubting doubtful things is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jds22 Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I just wonder how these stories of a modern day Lazarus happening after a Christian prays occurs. They don't. Some people who die allegedly come back to life after about 4 days because someone prayed. No they don't. I'm unsure how often these events allegedly occur or even if they really occured How often? Never. Sorry to sound like a smug jerk but those stories are 100% BS. Might I suggest a few books and podcasts. Podcast - Skeptics Guide to the Universe and Skeptoid Books - Why People Believe Weird Things and The Believing Brain - both by Michael Shermer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 When a "resurrection" occurs, what is really happening? Is it scientific events misinterpreted as a "supernatural resurreciton" or deliberate fabrication of events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jds22 Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 When a "resurrection" occurs, what is really happening? Is it scientific events misinterpreted as a "supernatural resurreciton" or deliberate fabrication of events? I'm sure a bit of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 When a "resurrection" occurs, what is really happening? Is it scientific events misinterpreted as a "supernatural resurreciton" or deliberate fabrication of events? According to the bible, there were lots of zombies in Jerusalem, not just jeebus, yet no historian bothered to mention it. Apparently a common occurrence. [/sarcasm] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 This is one of the docrines I've heard the most but have heard the least evidence for. I've never read an explicit mention of this in the Bible. The Bible seems to say "If you don't believe in God you will go to hell." instead of the "You go to hell if you want to. Non believers want to go to hell". My thoughts are why am I so defly afraid of hell if I am not a worshipper of Jesus and therefore "choose to go to hell"? Why do I choose to go to a place I don't want to go to. If "hell is a choice" why can I not worship God and not go to hell? Do non believers really want to go to hell? My fear has put so much pain on my life. I would like some answers on how this doctrine came to be and how much it really represents the Bible. The bible doesn't have any idea as to what happens to anyone. Sometimes nothing happens, sometimes you go to the grave, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and so on. It has no clue and so lots of people have had lots of ideas (ie. "The Rapture") to make this whole mess work. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikirin Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 This is one of the docrines I've heard the most but have heard the least evidence for. I've never read an explicit mention of this in the Bible. The Bible seems to say "If you don't believe in God you will go to hell." instead of the "You go to hell if you want to. Non believers want to go to hell". I think this is a device intended more to help Christians sleep at night than as a first-line apologetic aimed at non-Christians. Hey they want to go to Hell, so it's all good! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 10, 2013 Author Share Posted September 10, 2013 It is a common argument in Christian aplogetics books such as The Case for Faith, which every other apologetics book rips off in some way or another. The question is,why would atheists object to God sending people to hell if they themselves supposedly want to go there? That's something the book never touches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I just wonder how these stories of a modern day Lazarus happening after a Christian prays occurs. Some people who die allegedly come back to life after about 4 days because someone prayed. I'm unsure how often these events allegedly occur or even if they really occured. Never saw it but heard of it. How often does this happen? NEVER. Not once. Not ever. If it ever did, it would be breaking news all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The bible really isn't really clear about what happens after we die -- there are many contradictory bits scattered around, but nothing perfectly clear (there are lots of good examples on this site if you just read around). If god could not bother to make everything perfectly clear in his very own book he supposedly dictated, and remember he's supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient and all so he would KNOW how to write things perfectly clear, then I don't think it's up to me to try to figure out god. Hell, I don't know why *I* do half the things I do, how can I possibly know why god does what he does? How can I figure out the great, all-powerful god from contradictory bits written thousands of years ago, out of context from what I can relate to in 2013? Believe it or not, I have no clue how Bronze Age shepherds really understood life and the context of their lives. The one thing I find you can count on with people is to FOLLOW THE MONEY. Where's the money coming from in all this bible/church stuff? From the people. If the clergy can scare and guilt people into believing in god for fear of hell, tithe so they don't burn for eternity, follow every rule for "sexual purity" which is simply impossible because we have hormones and love sex so the church can torture us with guilt, then the clergy and church can OWN US and demand our money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 It is a common argument in Christian aplogetics books such as The Case for Faith, which every other apologetics book rips off in some way or another. The question is,why would atheists object to God sending people to hell if they themselves supposedly want to go there? That's something the book never touches on. Yes, it is a good question. I was always told that people are "choosing" to go to Hell by not believing. Okaaaaay. Because people have legitimate questions and concerns about living their life a particular way they are choosing to go to some place fiery damnation? I don't know, I never understood it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burt_Lemur Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I really don't get all this concern and worry and energy being spent on the topic of hell and atheists choosing to go there. If you don't believe in hell and the threat theology of the Bible, you can't CHOOSE to go to a place you don't believe in, sent by a fabricated monster you know isn't real. It doesn't matter how many Christians tell you that you are choosing to go to hell, that concept is pure nonsense. Why are you worried about it? Your profile says "no" to believing in God, so where is all this worry about hell coming from? No God=No Satan=No Hell, correct? Please explain if I'm missing something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 Yes, I used to have comfort in the fact that God didn't exist, but I've been forced through "spiritual retraining" to "see the light". I've used to think God couldn't exist because a God who sent billions to hell stretched credibility. My retrainers claim that it's good for God to send people to hell because that's what they want. They'd rather be in agony than with God. I thought it was against human nature to choose fire (or emotional agony depending on which depiction of hell we're talking about) over hapiness. I thought if God let people choose their afterlife after death, they would prefer to go to heaven. I told my retrainers my doubts and how I'd love to be accepted and not have to be retrained. They told me that the Bible doesn't say people don't choose to go to hell, therefore people choose to go to hell. Therefore, it's good for God to send people to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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