Lying Is Wrong, Right?

[mydisplayname]

So two weeks ago we took the yearly drive to my wifes family on a farm about a thousand km's (600 miles) from where we live. We've done this almost every year since we've been married for these past five years.

 

I always enjoy having a conversation with the one guy, 40 years my senior. I'm 30 he's 70. We see eye to eye on almost everything except of course religion. As always when sitting around a fire and alchohol is involved the religion topic was broached. I don't know if it was the brandy or his particular flavour of religious bullshit, but out slips my words: "so do you think the world was created in seven days"?

He kinda pauses, and thinks, and then says no. Now, my religious wife gives me the look that basically means, shut up. From here on I just keep quiet because this old-timer is now very aggresive in explaining to me how good his god is for him. Fortunately I was still sober enough to not try and debate him and just agreed with him. He then asks me what do I believe? So I lie, not very convincingly, and say I'm a christian. After that I poured the remainder of my glass out in the sink and went to bed.

 

I now have a bad taste in my mouth. I lied to people I liked.

 

Fast forward to this weekend. We're camping with my family and my mother mentions this article she read in her magazine on how man came to be. She is honestly shocked on how they don't mention scipture once. I just got up and walked away. I don't have the energy to lie like this any more.

 

I can't do this anymore. How can I teach my two year old son that lying is wrong if I'm doing it on a daily basis.

 

 

 

[gall]

So two weeks ago we took the yearly drive to my wifes family on a farm about a thousand km's (600 miles) from where we live. We've done this almost every year since we've been married for these past five years.

 

I always enjoy having a conversation with the one guy, 40 years my senior. I'm 30 he's 70. We see eye to eye on almost everything except of course religion. As always when sitting around a fire and alchohol is involved the religion topic was broached. I don't know if it was the brandy or his particular flavour of religious bullshit, but out slips my words: "so do you think the world was created in seven days"?

He kinda pauses, and thinks, and then says no. Now, my religious wife gives me the look that basically means, shut up. From here on I just keep quiet because this old-timer is now very aggresive in explaining to me how good his god is for him. Fortunately I was still sober enough to not try and debate him and just agreed with him. He then asks me what do I believe? So I lie, not very convincingly, and say I'm a christian. After that I poured the remainder of my glass out in the sink and went to bed.

 

I now have a bad taste in my mouth. I lied to people I liked.

 

Fast forward to this weekend. We're camping with my family and my mother mentions this article she read in her magazine on how man came to be. She is honestly shocked on how they don't mention scipture once. I just got up and walked away. I don't have the energy to lie like this any more.

 

I can't do this anymore. How can I teach my two year old son that lying is wrong if I'm doing it on a daily basis.

 

Then don't and no it isn't ok to lie. The person it is least ok for is you though. The first person hurt when you are doing what you are doing is you. Keep that in mind. You may hurt others in this but is it really you hurting them or is it their inability to let you be as you will and accept you as you are, something they would probably want you to do for them.

 

If you do not believe in gods I would hope you would not teach a child about them and damage them in that way. Personally I consider it child abuse considering the nastiness and disgust that is contained in most religions. Christinanity is not a nice thing and I would not wish it on anyone.

[mydisplayname]

I know this and agree with you 100%.

 

Am I going to be happy watching my mother cry every time she sees me because she thinks I'm going to hell?

 

No.

 

So I lie.

 

I don't mind hurting myself, but I hate hurting others.

 

That is why I lie.

 

 

[mymistake]

Who says that lying is wrong?  I wouldn't lie under oath.  You could make a case why that is unethical.  But here you lied to avoid the pain of confronting other people's self-delusions.  Clearly you are upset about it so your hurt yourself.  You desire to be true to yourself and that is understandable but it can have a very high cost to those related to fundamentalists.  At family reunions I still get asked to lead the prayers.  And it turns out that I still lead a good prayer.  My goal is to teach my kids to be publicly respectful of other religions even if they don't believe the same.  Ultimately you will decide how you will live your life.  Just don't kick yourself if you can't make your ideals fit your situation.

[RankStranger]

Lying isn't always a bad thing. I prefer to avoid it- I find that being honest is usually a good strategery for a variety of reasons. But this isn't a compulsion or a command from on high... I'm only honest BECAUSE it's usually practical (and it's a habit). But sometimes a small lie can save everybody some pain - I see nothing wrong with that. There's no magical sky-daddy waiting to punish me for it.

 

What does the most good and/or causes the least harm? What will be most convenient for me, and will work out long-term for myself and those few people I care about? I usually balance some questions like that and make my best guess - no need to tie yourself in knots over it. Honesty usually is the best compromise for those competing priorities... but not always. I'll tell a white lie or even a whopper if I think I'll get a better result.

[amateur]

What faceahem, mymistake and Rank Stranger said.  Yes.

 

Also, I try to be respectful to my elders.  I work with very elderly people in their homes as a caregiver, and I would never get them worked up over religion (my entire job revolves around NOT working them up, so they won't die).  Some of them have very strong beliefs, and if you're 95 and touching the hem of the Grim Reaper, I have no need to try to grab your faith and dash it to the ground moments before you're ready to die.

 

I don't overtly lie.  They will sometimes ask me if I'm a christian.  I say I grew up in the Methodist church.  True statement.  If they ask if I go to church, I say no, because of my job situation I work seven days a week, including Sunday morning, Saturday evenings, and Wednesday evenings, prime times for church services.  True statement, most weeks.

 

If someone were to ask me, "What do you believe?"  I'd answer with a big smile, "Wow, life's amazing, isn't it!  I'm not 100% sure how we got here, but here we are and it's beautiful!  I'm so glad we're both here and sharing this wonderful (meal, whiskey, sunset-watching, etc) together!"  Then my next sentence would be about that meal, whiskey, sunset, etc.  True statement.

 

If my mom said something (which she won't 'cause she's been dead for 30 years) about the article not mentioning creationism and expressing surprise, I'd say with a puzzled expression, "Wow, that is amazing that's not in there!  How about that!"  Then I'd say something about much I love s'mores (camping, right?) and go on about chocolate.  True statement.  I love chocolate.

 

I always found it easy to be honest with my kids.  When they asked questions about the obvious weirdness of the bible stories, I'd look them in the eye and say, "I don't know either!  Some stuff in the bible doesn't make sense."  If it were something I felt made sense with modern science, I'd say (for example), "People back then didn't know about mental illness or seizures.  They used to think there were demons, but there aren't demons.  Now we have medication for mental illness and seizures, and it's nothing to be scared of."  My kids have grown up to be atheists/agnostics, but respectful to others.

[Ravenstar]

I don't lie about it... but I rarely bring it up when around family that believes... or in the workplace.

 

A lie of omission, maybe. My personal 'beliefs' are really none of anyone's business and I don't feel a need to defend myself or 'preach', especially in socially sensitive situations.

 

In other venues I am outspoken if it comes up, but that's because I am convinced that religion is harmful.. that's for me.

 

I have a thing about truth... and find it difficult to not point it out when I feel I need to, BUT harming myself (say losing s job over it) is something I can't risk because I have a child to support.

[RankStranger]

True dat about old people. Of course this isn't universally true - very little is - but in my experience, if somebody is over say half a century old... it's a safe bet that they're not gonna change their mind on much of any thing for any reason. You pretty much have to accept them as they are... or move on if you can't.

[RipVanWinkle]

Telling the truth is frequently used as a weapon to hurt someone. The intent is anything but good. My self imposed rule is that I tell the truth unless it hurts someone unnecessarily. "How do I look"?, your wife asks. "You look fat and older." Right. Like I am going to say that. What would be the most beneficial for all concerned? It is sometimes a judgment call based on the least hurtful and the most beneficial approach.

 

I have noticed that some people who pride themselves on their honesty will be truthful no matter who it hurts,  except when it comes to their own faults. Then you can't torture the truth out of them.   bill

[midniterider]

So two weeks ago we took the yearly drive to my wifes family on a farm about a thousand km's (600 miles) from where we live. We've done this almost every year since we've been married for these past five years.

 

I always enjoy having a conversation with the one guy, 40 years my senior. I'm 30 he's 70. We see eye to eye on almost everything except of course religion. As always when sitting around a fire and alchohol is involved the religion topic was broached. I don't know if it was the brandy or his particular flavour of religious bullshit, but out slips my words: "so do you think the world was created in seven days"?

He kinda pauses, and thinks, and then says no. Now, my religious wife gives me the look that basically means, shut up. From here on I just keep quiet because this old-timer is now very aggresive in explaining to me how good his god is for him. Fortunately I was still sober enough to not try and debate him and just agreed with him. He then asks me what do I believe? So I lie, not very convincingly, and say I'm a christian. After that I poured the remainder of my glass out in the sink and went to bed.

 

I now have a bad taste in my mouth. I lied to people I liked.

 

Fast forward to this weekend. We're camping with my family and my mother mentions this article she read in her magazine on how man came to be. She is honestly shocked on how they don't mention scipture once. I just got up and walked away. I don't have the energy to lie like this any more.

 

I can't do this anymore. How can I teach my two year old son that lying is wrong if I'm doing it on a daily basis.

 

Your son will learn by watching you that lying is not always wrong. Lying is sometimes required for survival. Your son will learn honesty and integrity but will also learn that some lying is needed. Sometimes things are beyond your control and if you don't lie then something unfair will happen to you or your family.

[midniterider]

 What would be the most beneficial for all concerned? It is sometimes a judgment call based on the least hurtful and the most beneficial approach.

 

That really is the key to whether or not to lie. What is most beneficial. If your whole family is going to be in fear of you going to hell, then might be better to lie. If the lie doesn't have some grave consequences or won't cause harm to life then a lie can be helpful. Depends on the situation.

[Voice]

This doesn't look like a right or wrong situation, but a social graces situation.  You did what you thought would be easiest.

Now you are probably contemplating ways to tell it how it is, and what you need to find is the most socially graceful way to let it out while not putting them on the defensive, or the offensive.  We've had threads here that discussed how best to do that.

When I do it, I do it matter of fact, with as few words as possible.  Short, authoritative sentences that (ideally) end the discussion as it concerns me.  To get out of a conversation you can just say "excuse me," and exit.

You sound like you don't want to, or maybe are concerned you can't hide the truth, so the "right" thing for you would be to find a graceful, conflict-free way to let it out, maybe even gradually.  Showing respect for the faiths of those you like would have to be a part of it.

[midniterider]

When I do it, I do it matter of fact, with as few words as possible.  Short, authoritative sentences that (ideally) end the discussion as it concerns me.  To get out of a conversation you can just say "excuse me," and exit.

 

^^ That's great. No law says you must continue a conversation like that. :-)

[Galien]

I just tell people what I think.or say I don't want to discuss it.

[gall]

I know this and agree with you 100%.

 

Am I going to be happy watching my mother cry every time she sees me because she thinks I'm going to hell?

 

No.

 

So I lie.

 

I don't mind hurting myself, but I hate hurting others.

 

That is why I lie.

You are making a personal choice

 

There is no right or wrong of it. You have to decide what you want more and do that thing.

 

 

It does not change the fact that lying is not good and serves to break us down and not build us up.

 

Rather than lie to her talk to her. She makes herself feel that way. You are not responsible for that. You don't choose how she will feel and she could choose to feel different and treat you with respect instead.

[creative]

I think the question you should ask yourself is:

 

Does lying get me what i want?

[gall]

I think the question you should ask yourself is:

 

Does lying get me what i want?

 

If it does and another question is "does my lying that gets me what I want hurt or deprive others from what they want?"

 

I would think before one chooses to lie they should at least ask that of themselves.

 

I get what I want...I don't need to lie to get it. None of us gets 100% of what we want. Even those that lie 100% of the time.

[RankStranger]

 

I think the question you should ask yourself is:

 

Does lying get me what i want?

 

If it does and another question is "does my lying that gets me what I want hurt or deprive others from what they want?"

 

I would think before one chooses to lie they should at least ask that of themselves.

 

I get what I want...I don't need to lie to get it. None of us gets 100% of what we want. Even those that lie 100% of the time.

What you 'want' could include not hurting or depriving others.

[Voice]

 

I think the question you should ask yourself is:

 

Does lying get me what i want?

 

If it does and another question is "does my lying that gets me what I want hurt or deprive others from what they want?"

 

I would think before one chooses to lie they should at least ask that of themselves.

 

I get what I want...I don't need to lie to get it. None of us gets 100% of what we want. Even those that lie 100% of the time.

 

 

gail, I like the way you think.

[gall]

 

 

I think the question you should ask yourself is:

 

Does lying get me what i want?

If it does and another question is "does my lying that gets me what I want hurt or deprive others from what they want?"

 

I would think before one chooses to lie they should at least ask that of themselves.

 

I get what I want...I don't need to lie to get it. None of us gets 100% of what we want. Even those that lie 100% of the time.

What you 'want' could include not hurting or depriving others.

 

 

 

it does indeed. and that is far easier to do when I am honest with myself and them. Generally lying ends up doing one of those things though.

[Voice]

There have been circumstances I've seen where a person doesn't know the whole truth, others do, and it's mutually decided by everyone to not share the truth with that person because if they knew it would cause them depression or stress or emotional trauma that they really don't need to have.  I have to agree that this is a case where lying, or not divulging a whole truth would be in the better interest of NOT breaking someone down.  This situation is more common when someone has cheated on the person and the cheater is long gone already.  I would not agree with lying to them if the cheating was still going on.  I think they should know that if it's happening, so they don't go on being schmucks.