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Darkillusion

Best Questions You Use To Stump Christians

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Hey all!

 

I'm looking for your top questions that Christians can't answer. Perhaps the question that was the final nail in the coffin of your faith. Perhaps a question you like to ask when trying to deconvert a Christian.

 

Let me give you some background to my inquiry. I've deconverted but my husband has not. While he is not a fundamentalist at all, he says he thinks he prefers having hope over truth because without faith his world falls apart. We've been going thru a rough time in our families (several deaths, financial issues, etc.) and my deconversion has caused him to question his faith further. He says my reasons for deconverting make sense, but he can't deny that he's felt god's presence.

 

To combat the doubt he is feeling, he is reaching out to all sorts of groups at church. As soon as he told people about his doubts, the pastors have swooped down on him to offer ever so much love and support. He is meeting with two of them next week so they can tell him why Christianity is true. The last meeting they had made me laugh, the pastor literally said "now I can't begin to know how carbon dating works but..." My husband replied "well I do and I can fill you in if you want!"

 

I feel like my husband is right on the edge, and he has asked me to come up with some questions he can ask them. I thought it would be a fun question to ask you all. I know we all bring different perspectives to the table and I thought we could brain storm some good "apologetic resistant" questions!

 

The funny thing is, I was always more of a fundamentalist, and it was one question that my husband asked that got me tumbling down the rabbits hole after bible study one night..."don't you think the apostle Paul seems pretty arrogant for being god's right hand man?"

 

I like creative questions, things that get Christians thinking. Stuff they probably haven't considered before.

 

One question I like to ask Christians is, why is hell a cornerstone of Christianity when Jews past or present don't have an official equivalent in their belief system? Many Christians don't read their Old Testament so that's news to them!

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Hey all!

 

I'm looking for your top questions that Christians can't answer. Perhaps the question that was the final nail in the coffin of your faith. Perhaps a question you like to ask when trying to deconvert a Christian.

 

Hi Darkillusion, I would not want to convert/deconvert others to my belief or lack of beliefs. I lost faith gradually over time with the absurdity of it all.  However one argument I like is to point out the evidence is not good enough to support Christianity. You have four contradictory gospels written by anonymous authors decades after the life of Jesus. They were written by unknown people, at unknown times, using unknown sources. And the stories contradict each other throughout.  This does not meet the standards of ordinary evidence. That is basically why I stopped being a Christian.  edit: And yes the Apostle Paul was pretty arrogant for God's right hand man.  The whole thing is a hodge podge of myths and legends it very difficult to tell what the truth is, which is exactly what you'd expect from a wholly man made religion.

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1.  How can God claim that He's better than us when He rules us with a "Do as I say, not as I do" policy; setting us with the rule that we should not kill while indulging frequently in genocidal acts?

 

2.  How can God claim to have a higher standard than us, when we hold ourselves to pretty high standards?  He tells us "Do not lie" and we'll even take ourselves to task for lying by omission; which would mean that God is lying by omission of massive amounts of information that would help us make better informed decisions.

 

If he gets any answers other than "God is God, and because we are his, he is entitled to do whatever he wants to us" to these questions, I would love to know what they come up with.

 

3.  Why does God think that infinite punishment for finite crimes (only a lifetime of sin warrants eternal torment) is a fair system?

 

4.  If God can only forgive because of Jesus's intervention on our behalf, then how come we are able to forgive without the intervention of sacrificing our own son (or loved one) to stand in their place to absolve someone of their sins against us?  Again the refrain, how does God qualify himself as better than us?

 

5.  Why did God create the Devil, when he should have known what he was going to do?  Why does he allow his interference on Earth, when we can do bad things all by ourselves; why overcomplicate the situation?  Why stack the deck in this way against maximizing the souls that God could save from eternal damnation?

 

6. Is Heaven nearly empty and is Hell bursting at the seams?  If so, then who is really winning the numbers game, who is doing a better job at winning or losing souls?  If God is not collecting as many souls, why is he not doing more to maximize his son's sacrifice?

 

7.  Why didn't God anticipate some of the major questions that are so important to the development of theology, to the point where we have some of the major branchings in the denominations?  Free Will versus Self determination, why did he not clarify this kind of issue for us better?  Again, this goes back to withholding information that is important for us to determine how we relate with God and the universe, and formulate our understanding.

 

8.  Why do we have to bear the burdens of Adam and Eves' sin, when he could have arranged things so that each one of us had the chance to be born with a clean slate, and make our own mistakes free of a tainted universe.  Why didn't God create the universe in such a way that Adam and Eves' sin only tainted themselves as individuals, and not the universe and their own children?  How come I could imagine constructing the universe that way, and given the choice and ability, would construct the universe that way?  How does God claim to be kind and benevolent and only able to make the universe the way it is, when I can imagine doing it differently?

 

9. What use is Christianity to an individual with mental illness that would predispose them to be depressed and obsess about guilt, when Christianity would compound such a sick person's worry, guilt, obsession and depression to the point that it paralyzes them?

 

These are just some questions I'm thinking of off the top of my head.  If your husband is talking with thelogians with collegiate level training, then there may be subtle nuances with my wording of these questions that are lacking; if anyone wants to refine how I've articulated them please do, they will need to be as airtight as possible when they are asked of these pastors.

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Hey all!

 

I'm looking for your top questions that Christians can't answer. Perhaps the question that was the final nail in the coffin of your faith. Perhaps a question you like to ask when trying to deconvert a Christian.

 

Let me give you some background to my inquiry. I've deconverted but my husband has not. While he is not a fundamentalist at all, he says he thinks he prefers having hope over truth because without faith his world falls apart. We've been going thru a rough time in our families (several deaths, financial issues, etc.) and my deconversion has caused him to question his faith further. He says my reasons for deconverting make sense, but he can't deny that he's felt god's presence.

I do not think you can deconvert anyone unless they choose to. If he is looking for the ace up he sleeve stump question, you are wasting your time. As for his feeling god's presence, show him this video

 

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There are lots of good questions here.....although I also agree that it is impossible to argue someone into deconverting.  It's an individual process over time. 

 

Many things over many years led to my deconversion, but the final straw was when I could no longer justify/rationalize/reconcile that there is so much suffering in this world (starvation, torture and abuse, etc., etc.), and yet people in church praise god for  "answered prayers" for new jobs, restored marriages, meeting the budget, blah, blah, blah.....

 

Towards the end, I was praying for god to not bother with my petty problems and go help people who really needed it!  And then I just finally realized that the reason he didn't was because he didn't exist.....

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I understand what you all mean, by not wanting to deconvert someone or deconversion being a long, personal process. I agree with you for the most part. I wouldn't care what someone else believes (although I always love discussing it) but when it comes to a spouse I think it's different since their lives are so intertwined with yours. I want my husband to deconvert because I care about him. Also it would make things easier if we have a child. And selfishly I want my discussing partner back. We tip toe around religious issues and topics of the day when we used to tackle things head on. It's just that my worldview has changed so much that we don't see eye to eye on things anymore. Hopefully you all can understand how my feelings with regard for this issue would be different with my spouse than with any other Christian I would encounter.

 

I think a person can deconvert even if they don't want to. I don't think I ever wanted to lose my faith (or thought it was possible) but when I started asking some questions and looking for answers...at some point, some people reach a point of no return with the evidence whether they wanted to reach it or not. Of course to reach that point you have to at least be open minded that you could be wrong.

 

And I do think the stumpy questions are good in this instance. When my husband sees that religion really isn't able to give useful answers in regard to questions about its own doctrine and questions about life...that when you get down to it, Christianity doesn't really answer anything, I think it will push him more toward the light of reason.

 

But mostly I just wanted to hear some questions that always bothered you all. A question that was defining for one person might not matter so much to the next person, and I just enjoy hearing the personal stories :)

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@LivingLife

That video was interesting, I'd like to see the whole thing. I think a lot of what we attribute to god's presence is just warm fuzzy feelings during a rough time or when feel awe when we look at something greater than ourselves. Nothing supernatural required!

 

@Tristanjay

Love your questions! Very creative, you definitely have some things I never thought about. Lying by omission...so true! Why is it a sin when we lie by omission but if biblegod were real he omitted a lot of things that would be useful and downright lied in other places. Why does he get a free pass? Christians excuse it by saying, well he meant it figuratively, or he dumbed it down for the people of the time, or we will have all the answers when we get to heaven, god isn't obligated to tell us anything and we should feel honored he revealed this much. Bleh.

 

I also think the different denominations question is a good point. They believe radically different things, but wasn't the Holy Spirit supposed to guide everyone into all truth? If the Holy Spirit is real, isn't he doing a pretty crappy job? I brought that up to a Christian once and his response was that all true Christian churches believe the core doctrine, mainly Jesus, and the rest of the stuff is just details. I'm sorry but if one denomination says i have to be baptized to go to heaven and the other makes it optional, according to the first denomination if I don't get baptized I go to hell so it shouldn't be optional! That's more than a minor difference! The bible is confusing enough, it sure would help if the Holy Spirit were around so there isn't all this confusion. But not surprisingly we see exactly what we would expect to see if a bunch of people were reading a confusing book written by man and basing their lives off of it. Hundreds of denominations with hundreds of ways of interpreting it!

 

Also I like your point on forgiveness. Seems we understand how forgiveness works better than biblegod. I will definitely have him bring up some of your questions and I will report back how it all goes.

 

They are trying very hard to save his soul, giving him lots of time and attention. It irks me because as soon as he is back in the fold they won't remember his name. I'm sure they just don't want to lose a paying customer!

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@Adam5

Your question resonates with me because it was the shoddy New Testament that got me rejecting faith altogether. First I rejected the epistles because they did not line up with the gospels, then I rejected the gospels because they did not line up with the Old Testament, then I rejected the Old Testament because it didn't line up with science. It was an eliminating process for me over the course of a few months, all started because of that one question throwing doubt on apostle Paul's credibility. The bible is its own worst enemy.

 

@MissingLink

Yea I know what you mean. Silly things like "praise god, he helped you pass your test!" All the while I'm thinking, why doesn't he give some attention to some poor soul that is dying from cancer, or the people in the world that keeled over from a heart attack while I was taking that test. It's funny because god helped me with so many little things, but he seemed to disappear when anything really terrible happened in my life. I'd trade all my aced tests he helped me with if he would heal my brother in law with ALS, take away my moms drug addiction so she could be a real mom, make my grandma walk again. Of course, he doesn't exist so I can stop hoping for the impossible and start taking credit for the little things, like passing my tests (:

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Question to ask a Christian:

"Why hasn't god done any major miracles in the last two thousand years?"

 

In the bible he can part the red sea and rain fire from heaven. But in real life, he doesn't seem to do anything at all! Hmmmmm...

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Question to ask a Christian:

"Why hasn't god done any major miracles in the last two thousand years?"

 

In the bible he can part the red sea and rain fire from heaven. But in real life, he doesn't seem to do anything at all! Hmmmmm...

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Why doesn't God do any major miracles any more?

I mean outside of the bible, he doesn't seem to be doing anything, but in the bible he parts seas, rains fire from heaven, raises the dead.... What happened?

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The classic is, "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" 

 

An all powerful god could just strike dead any or all evil people in the world, so why did he cruelly drown all the babies, children, bunnies and kittens?

 

Where did Adam and Eve's sons get their wives from?

 

Jesus promised believers that he would answer their prayers and that they could move mountains, either figuratively or literally. Any examples these last 2,000 years?

 

If the Bible is the inspired Word of God, why does it have so many internal conflicts, scientific inaccuracies and unsubstantiated history?

 

If the Holy Spirit clarifies doctrine to believers, why are there more than 30,000 different sects/religions stemming from that one Bible?

 

The list is virtually endless. A quick Googling will unearth much more.

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"Have you read the Bible? All of it? Cover-to-Cover? No? I have, in two different translations. We'll finish this conversation when you've read the Bible."

 

I'm stunned by just how many Christians haven't actually sat down and read the entire thing. This usually short-circuits about a third of the debates I get into with the pushy ones. (Shame them into doing the research themselves.)

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If god truly wanted none to eternally perish as the Bible says and all it takes is believing that Jesus died for our sins, why does god depend on a 2,000 year old document with serious credibility issues to get the word out when he could give each generation a simultaneous vision off the cross, or implant the memory of Jesus's crucifixion in everyone, or send a freaking disembodied hand to write about it on the Empire State Building, or something. Anything. They might say, "well some would still not believe." Maybe, but even so, BILLIONS would end up believing.

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The Epicurean Paradox comes to mind...

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

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Me: In Numbers 31, when Moses had Israel attack the Midianites, why did Moses tell the warriors they were to kill all the men and non-virgin women, but could take the virgins for themselves?

 

Them: They absorbed the Midianite girls into Israelite culture.

 

Me: Then why did they kill the young boys? Those weren't dangerous. The baby boys could have assimilated too.

 

Them: ....

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Contradictions and mistakes in the Bible.  I know this is awfully vague and general, but there are so many to choose from.  Minimal preparation should turn up a nice list that would be pretty impossibly to explain without a lot of equivocation and mental gymnastics.

 

The classic is, "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" 

 

Let me carry this a little further, if I may.  Why does god do (slight) leg lengthenings, heal people of back problems, vague aliments of internal organs, arthritis, and the common cold, carefully mimicking natural processes like the placebo effect or the statistically expected natural progression/regression of diseases, yet NOT heal amputees?  On occasions where god heals the wheelchair bound and paralyzed, why is it only in cases where there is opportunity for fraud?

In this case, SPECIFICALLY in this case, rather than the general case, I have to side with Darkillusion on the matter of helping her husband along the path of deconversion.  He is already questioning, and think the explanations given in post 6 are solid.  For spouses in general, I think depending on the marriage your mileage may vary, but I think the husband, marriage, and family will be healthier if Mr. Darkillusion has the wherewithal to confront the tough questions.  Although most of it's a load of crap, I have to agree with the bible that it's better to not be unequally yoked.

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The killer that no Christian can answer.

 

"The Bible looks on the surface like it's full of contradictions.  You provide me with complex theological and textual analysis to show why there are in fact no contradictions.  Ok, I give you the benefit of the doubt.  But tell me - why would God make the Bible look like it is the fallible and contradictory word of man, even though it is as you say the perfect and infallible word of God?"

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If sin is inescapable, meaning we are born into it and will fall prey to it almost daily with no way to avoid it because of our "evil" human nature, then why punish us for what we cannot help? Moreover, why punish us with eternal torment in hell to burn forever?

 

Why not do away with hell? Since Christians always say god does not want anyone in hell, then why not snap his fingers and be done with it? Especially when the stakes are so high, meaning eternal punishment in hell, if we screw up and die before getting "right" with god. Why not do away with it and take everybody to heaven after they die? Why invent this long, complicated process to get to heaven and avoid hell when he could just will it and everyone will get to heaven upon death. Since children and the mentally retarded get a free pass into heaven when they die, as christians say, why not simply extend that free pass to everyone?

 

Why entrust your plan of salvation and your plan to avoid the fires of hell to a book that is to be spread around the world by men on foot? Couldn't god do a little better job with it than this? As somebody already said on here, why does god not do miracles and wonders today like he did in Biblical times? Where's the fire and brimstone, the pillar's of fire, the talking snakes and donkeys, the parted waters, the dead rising from their graves, the boulders from the sky, the chariots and flying horses riding in a whirl wind and so much more that was common place in the Bible? Why don't god do some of these things today to convince people he exists? Boom down his voice from the clouds everyday at noon or do something that cannot be explained away by science or chance or coincidence that would make any ordinary person stop and say "now that was the supernatural, that was god, no doubt about it". He could do any and all this with ease just like in Biblical days to spread his word around and to prove he exists but doesn't.

 

Before Jesus came and died on the cross and made a way for all of us to get to heaven, what happened to every person on planet earth for thousands of years who had the misfortune of not being born in Israel? How in the world did they get to heaven? The typical fundie view is a world that is 6,000 years old. Christ came and died 2,000 years ago, so are we to believe that for 4,000 years before he came along that everybody who just didn't happen to be Jewish died and went to hell and with not even a way to get to heaven? Obviously nobody could get to heaven before Christ came, otherwise his coming would have been pointless. So by all means and measures, everyone died and went to hell for 4,000 years before Christ came.

 

 

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If sin is inescapable, meaning we are born into it and will fall prey to it almost daily with no way to avoid it because of our "evil" human nature, then why punish us for what we cannot help? Moreover, why punish us with eternal torment in hell to burn forever?

 

Why not do away with hell? Since Christians always say god does not want anyone in hell, then why not snap his fingers and be done with it? Especially when the stakes are so high, meaning eternal punishment in hell, if we screw up and die before getting "right" with god. Why not do away with it and take everybody to heaven after they die? Why invent this long, complicated process to get to heaven and avoid hell when he could just will it and everyone will get to heaven upon death. Since children and the mentally retarded get a free pass into heaven when they die, as christians say, why not simply extend that free pass to everyone?

 

Why entrust your plan of salvation and your plan to avoid the fires of hell to a book that is to be spread around the world by men on foot? Couldn't god do a little better job with it than this? As somebody already said on here, why does god not do miracles and wonders today like he did in Biblical times? Where's the fire and brimstone, the pillar's of fire, the talking snakes and donkeys, the parted waters, the dead rising from their graves, the boulders from the sky, the chariots and flying horses riding in a whirl wind and so much more that was common place in the Bible? Why don't god do some of these things today to convince people he exists? Boom down his voice from the clouds everyday at noon or do something that cannot be explained away by science or chance or coincidence that would make any ordinary person stop and say "now that was the supernatural, that was god, no doubt about it". He could do any and all this with ease just like in Biblical days to spread his word around and to prove he exists but doesn't.

 

Before Jesus came and died on the cross and made a way for all of us to get to heaven, what happened to every person on planet earth for thousands of years who had the misfortune of not being born in Israel? How in the world did they get to heaven? The typical fundie view is a world that is 6,000 years old. Christ came and died 2,000 years ago, so are we to believe that for 4,000 years before he came along that everybody who just didn't happen to be Jewish died and went to hell and with not even a way to get to heaven? Obviously nobody could get to heaven before Christ came, otherwise his coming would have been pointless. So by all means and measures, everyone died and went to hell for 4,000 years before Christ came.

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If sin is inescapable, meaning we are born into it and will fall prey to it almost daily with no way to avoid it because of our "evil" human nature, then why punish us for what we cannot help? Moreover, why punish us with eternal torment in hell to burn forever?

 

Why not do away with hell? Since Christians always say god does not want anyone in hell, then why not snap his fingers and be done with it? Especially when the stakes are so high, meaning eternal punishment in hell, if we screw up and die before getting "right" with god. Why not do away with it and take everybody to heaven after they die? Why invent this long, complicated process to get to heaven and avoid hell when he could just will it and everyone will get to heaven upon death. Since children and the mentally retarded get a free pass into heaven when they die, as christians say, why not simply extend that free pass to everyone?

 

Why entrust your plan of salvation and your plan to avoid the fires of hell to a book that is to be spread around the world by men on foot? Couldn't god do a little better job with it than this? As somebody already said on here, why does god not do miracles and wonders today like he did in Biblical times? Where's the fire and brimstone, the pillar's of fire, the talking snakes and donkeys, the parted waters, the dead rising from their graves, the boulders from the sky, the chariots and flying horses riding in a whirl wind and so much more that was common place in the Bible? Why don't god do some of these things today to convince people he exists? Boom down his voice from the clouds everyday at noon or do something that cannot be explained away by science or chance or coincidence that would make any ordinary person stop and say "now that was the supernatural, that was god, no doubt about it". He could do any and all this with ease just like in Biblical days to spread his word around and to prove he exists but doesn't.

 

Before Jesus came and died on the cross and made a way for all of us to get to heaven, what happened to every person on planet earth for thousands of years who had the misfortune of not being born in Israel? How in the world did they get to heaven? The typical fundie view is a world that is 6,000 years old. Christ came and died 2,000 years ago, so are we to believe that for 4,000 years before he came along that everybody who just didn't happen to be Jewish died and went to hell and with not even a way to get to heaven? Obviously nobody could get to heaven before Christ came, otherwise his coming would have been pointless. So by all means and measures, everyone died and went to hell for 4,000 years before Christ came.

Right on. Whatever part of my brain still believes in christianity, if there was any part at all left.... Well, after reading this, it just exploded! :)

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You could pull up any number of irreconcilable contradictions in the Bible.

-Like the four gospel accounts of the resurrection. Have your husband read them, then have him take his Bible to the pastors and have them read all four. Now try to reconcile them..... No can do.

-Ask them what Judas did with the money he got for betraying Jesus. Matt 27:5 and Acts 1:18 for the two stories.

- You could give them the God Challenge.

Isaiah 41:22 & 23. (The bold emphasis is mine.)

"22 Bring in your idols to tell us
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Do something, whether good or bad,
so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear."

 

Great then. Since god's prophet Isaiah apparently through this one down to other gods, let's ask biblegod to step up to the plate.

 

There are many more.

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Since children and the mentally retarded get a free pass into heaven when they die, as christians say,

 

Isn't it suspect where the vast majority of Christians come up with some of their ideas, especially moderate and conservative Protestants who subscribe to the Sola Scriptura doctrine?  You're really hard pressed to find ANY biblical backing to the idea that children get a free pass.  In fact, since it DOES make a big deal of your need to come to Jesus to get to heaven, a reasonable person who had only read the bible and not learned about Christianity from other Christians would only be left to assume that babies went to hell when they died in lieu of any indication otherwise.

 

If the Christian god actually existed, it seems pretty strange that he would not speak to this vitally important issue clearly in his perfect and inerrant Word, instead of letting Christians figure out, conveniently what they want to believe, in some sort of bizarre mass divine revelation.

 

On the other hand, if the Christian god were man-made, what you see is exactly what you'd expect: The ancient Hebrews did not have much of a concept of an afterlife.  There was just the kind of murky and nebulous Sheol.  Then, you can actually watch the evolution of ideas about the afterlife from the earliest to the latest writings as you read the bible.  As the doctrines of heaven and hell evolved and the idea of redemption only through coming to Jesus was introduced, it makes perfect since that Christians would allay their nightmarish fears about their babies and young children spending eternity in a lake of fire by extra-biblically inventing this free pass, and doing so near universally.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, in earlier times, the mentally retarded probably would have been deemed demon possessed and exempt for any free pass that children had.  In more modern times, where it has become evident, even to Christians that some people are simply born profoundly retarded and have no capacity to understand the message of Christianity and be "saved," the sense of discomfort returns.  It makes sense that in modern times, more and more people would start adding the mentally retarded to the list of people who get a free pass.

 

Maybe this is some more food for thought?

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If Christians are supernaturally filled with the love of Christ, why are so many of them greedy, scared, backstabbing, politically motivated, corrupt, controlling, money grubbing, sexually deviant, mean spirited, unforgiving assholes?

 

If Christians are supernaturally infilled with the Holy Spirit, why are so many of them ... (same as above)?

 

The answer is usually Satan, and this is Satan's realm. So if the love of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit is too weak in this world to overcome the workings of Satan (wouldn't that be an insult to the all-powerful God to say he's not that powerful?), then why are we praising God, thanking him, and asking him to intercede for us? He is not powerful enough to do so in this realm, so why bother?

 

By asking God to intercede here in this world where he apparently has less power than Satan, are we just mocking him? "Hey God, can you fix this? No? Yeah, thought so. Just checking." Sounds like mocking to me.

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Any one got any questions related to Calvinism?

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