Tough Question - It Troubles Me

[themonkeyman]

Hi Folks,

I have been watching several On-line forums and one of the things an Atheist raised was the Unforgivable Sin.

I have a question about this - On this same fourm several Christians gave 6 different interpretations meaning no one really knows what the heck this sin is. However I have a bigger question here.

Essentially the way I read and understand it is that to speak evil of the Holy Spirit then you have comitted it.

Anyhow --- I was reading a passage here : 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 

This means that as we read above that all spirits are very alike and that further testing needs to be done to determaine weather its from God or not. E.g. Unclean and Clean Spirits are all types of the one Spiritual Form.

I know this can be considered borderline blasphemy but I used this point before when reasoning with myself. E.g. Both Spirits need to be very similar in order for us to have to test them. I would have thought they were so different they were not compatible but the scripture above says that further testing needs to be done.

What do you think?

 

[Overcame Faith]

I think the instructions for testing the spirits found in 1 John that you quoted leads to an absurdity.  For a spirit to be of God, all it has to do is to "...confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh..."  It seems to me that the Demons in the following verses pass that test:

 

 

¹¹ Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

 

Mark 3:11

 

³³ In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, ³⁴ “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

³⁵ “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.

 

Luke 4:33-35

 

So, either:  (1) Jesus was faking his exorcisms by employing true spirits of God who readily acknowledged him; (2) the exorcisms were of Demons but demons are of the spirit of God; or, (3) the passage in 1 John is full of hot air.  I opt for number 3.

[mymistake]

Mark, Luke and 1 John were all written by different men.  Those men were in competition with each other and would each have seen the others as a false prophets proclaiming false gospels.  All these sects had different beliefs so that is why their books say different things.

 

I don't believe in spirits anymore.  But back when I did I would have told you that the good ones were very unlike the bad ones but somehow the bad ones are very deceptive.  It's all garbage for the mind.

 

 

Edit:

Is this about felling fear?  Christianity uses a lot of fear to keep people under control.  It goes all the way back to when the New Testament was being written and that is why you will find unforgivable sin and so on in the Bible.  

[Guest MadameX]

Honestly, I do not know what the heck you are talking about but I wish to offer you this: there is no 'Unforgivable Sin'. Sure Christians might play their word games and toss the phrase about. You might ask them to be *specific* about what it is. If you have all day to mess around with the chase down the rabbit hole that is.

 

But what I would like to say is, as I see you are relatively new to the forum here, welcome and best of luck on your journey of questioning. Surround yourself with honest, genuine people. Be gentle on yourself as you have been indoctrinated, as have the people around you. Put down the bible: there are no answers there. Live life. Live it fully, be completely faithful to yourself and your integrity, because we only go around the track once. One time.

[pawn]

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then they are clearly false spirits.

[florduh]

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then they are clearly false spirits.

This seems to be the only reasonable test. You can't go wrong with a good marinara.

 

Seriously, no clean spirits, no unclean spirits. It's Christian mumbo jumbo to keep the sheep scared, guessing, and depending on their religious leaders for interpretation. Really, it's a nonsense question and subject, but a valid topic for doctrinal debates among believers hoping to figure out what the fuck their god demands of them.

[Lilith666]

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they

smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then

they are clearly false spirits.

LOL! I apologize to monkeyman for getting off topic, but I have questions about Pastafarianism. Do you believe in a literal FSM? One P-farian said he did. And what draws you to follow the religion?

[MerryG]

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then they are clearly false spirits.

 

I'm only casually acquainted with Pastafarianism. But this seems extremely narrow-minded and judgmental!

 

Marinara -- fine. But are you denying the sanctity of pesto? Or clam sauce?

[pawn]

 

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they

smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then

they are clearly false spirits.

LOL! I apologize to monkeyman for getting off topic, but I have questions about Pastafarianism. Do you believe in a literal FSM? One P-farian said he did. And what draws you to follow the religion?

 

I was actually a christian, and I was going around persecuting pastafarians.  I was traveling to Damascus to have a bunch of pastafarians boiled in a huge cauldron, when I was knocked down and blinded by a huge light in the sky.  I heard a voice,"Pawn, Pawn, why does thou persecuteth me?"

 

"Who are you Lord?" I cried in the blinding holy light.  Then he revealed himself, the flying pile of noodles and meatballs, with two giant eyes!  He told me to get up, and follow him.

[pawn]

 

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then they are clearly false spirits.

 

I'm only casually acquainted with Pastafarianism. But this seems extremely narrow-minded and judgmental!

 

Marinara -- fine. But are you denying the sanctity of pesto? Or clam sauce?

 

You are clearly deceived by false spirits.  The one true God only smells like marinara.  Repent, or you will die in your sin.

[mymistake]

 

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they

smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then

they are clearly false spirits.

LOL! I apologize to monkeyman for getting off topic, but I have questions about Pastafarianism. Do you believe in a literal FSM? One P-farian said he did. And what draws you to follow the religion?

 

 

(whisper)

The whole FSM thing is about making fun of fundamentalist by mimicking them.  You can repeat their entire message by changing a few words.  It highlights their hypocrisy and special pleading.

(/whisper)

[midniterider]

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then they are clearly false spirits.

 

Garlic also is the most holy .

[midniterider]

 

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they

smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then

they are clearly false spirits.

LOL! I apologize to monkeyman for getting off topic, but I have questions about Pastafarianism. Do you believe in a literal FSM? One P-farian said he did. And what draws you to follow the religion?

 

 

I follow the religion for the promise of a beer volcano and a stripper factory in heaven.

[pawn]

 

 

I test them by sniffing their odor. If they smell like marinara, then they are holy, they are obviously from the one true FSM god. If they

smell like anything but spaghetti sauce, then

they are clearly false spirits.

LOL! I apologize to monkeyman for getting off topic, but I have questions about Pastafarianism. Do you believe in a literal FSM? One P-farian said he did. And what draws you to follow the religion?

 

 

I follow the religion for the promise of a beer volcano and a stripper factory in heaven.

 

Amen brother

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Here's my contribution: I was taught that the Unpardonable Sin was the one Sin the God could not, and would not forgive a person for committing.  

 

I have concluded that there are actually two ways a person can be set free from sin.  The first is to invite jesus into one's heart and then resign oneself to living a life ruled by guilt, fear, and condemnation.

 

The second way a person can be set free from sin is to simply realize and accept that sin only exists in the minds of simpletons, and then proclaim oneself to be more intelligent than a simpleton.

 

Since neither jesus nor sin is REAL; you shouldn't be afraid of committing a sin for which jesus cannot forgive you.  It's like believing that if you piss Santa Claus off, he won't bring you the three-legged purple stump-jumper you asked for.  Neither are real; so why live in fear?

[MerryG]

monkeyman, I'll apologize, too, for helping tug this thread away from your topic. I know you're honestly seeking answers.

 

In a way, though, it's just as profound and important to contemplate the holiness of marinara sauce over pesto as it is to contemplate whether this sin or that one is unforgivable because the bible describes them in such confusing and contradictory ways. That is -- it's not profound or important at all.

 

I know the scholars hereabouts have fun teasing out the many contradictions and errors in scripture. But if you're really looking for guidance and a clear path -- you'll only drive yourself nuts focusing on which nonsense in a book filled with nonsense is "true" or "accurate."

 

Good luck to you!

[Lerk]

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. "

 

Those folks really believed that there were spirits running around among them, that the spirit of the Antichrist was there, and that jesus would return soon and there would be a battle. Didn't happen. And people today still think spirits are among us, that Jesus will return, and they are still expecting it soon!

[par4dcourse]

..... the three-legged purple stump-jumper you asked for.  Neither are real;

The jumpster isn't real? My fantasies have been shattered!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

..... the three-legged purple stump-jumper you asked for.  Neither are real;

The jumpster isn't real? My fantasies have been shattered!

 

 

Sorry about that, Par.  I didn't mean to disillusion a fellow tarheel, especially one who lives so close to my hometown.  But it's better to know the truth about the jumpster than live in the false hope that it will one day be yours.

[themonkeyman]

Here's my contribution: I was taught that the Unpardonable Sin was the one Sin the God could not, and would not forgive a person for committing.  

 

I have concluded that there are actually two ways a person can be set free from sin.  The first is to invite jesus into one's heart and then resign oneself to living a life ruled by guilt, fear, and condemnation.

 

The second way a person can be set free from sin is to simply realize and accept that sin only exists in the minds of simpletons, and then proclaim oneself to be more intelligent than a simpleton.

 

Since neither jesus nor sin is REAL; you shouldn't be afraid of committing a sin for which jesus cannot forgive you.  It's like believing that if you piss Santa Claus off, he won't bring you the three-legged purple stump-jumper you asked for.  Neither are real; so why live in fear?

 

I don't know what I believe - I would ideally like to say to myself that it was added by chance and that Jesus never said it.  If this was the case why did 3 Gospels record it apart from the Black Sheep 'Gospel of John'

 

Possibly it came from Q-Document but this would confirm that Jesus said it otherwise in later revisions it would have been removed.

 

Secondly why the fuck did Jesus throw that out there and not explain it!

[MerryG]

 

Here's my contribution: I was taught that the Unpardonable Sin was the one Sin the God could not, and would not forgive a person for committing.  

 

I have concluded that there are actually two ways a person can be set free from sin.  The first is to invite jesus into one's heart and then resign oneself to living a life ruled by guilt, fear, and condemnation.

 

The second way a person can be set free from sin is to simply realize and accept that sin only exists in the minds of simpletons, and then proclaim oneself to be more intelligent than a simpleton.

 

Since neither jesus nor sin is REAL; you shouldn't be afraid of committing a sin for which jesus cannot forgive you.  It's like believing that if you piss Santa Claus off, he won't bring you the three-legged purple stump-jumper you asked for.  Neither are real; so why live in fear?

 

I don't know what I believe - I would ideally like to say to myself that it was added by chance and that Jesus never said it.  If this was the case why did 3 Gospels record it apart from the Black Sheep 'Gospel of John'

 

Possibly it came from Q-Document but this would confirm that Jesus said it otherwise in later revisions it would have been removed.

 

Secondly why the fuck did Jesus throw that out there and not explain it!

 

 

Coming from the Q-Document wouldn't confirm anything! The Q-Document wasn't a tape recorder; it was just a document from which the synoptic gospels (edited: or at least Matthew and Luke) are probably derived. Yes, it's earlier -- IF it existed at all, which nobody knows -- but that proves nothing.

 

And all kinds of confusing and contradictory crap got left in various parts of the bible (e.g. Jesus contradicting himself on the morality of remarriage after divorce; two contradictory creation stories slammed together; two contradictory flood stories awkwardly blended, etc.). Probably in part that was because of sloppy editing and copying. Probably in part it was because as somebody said above, the copyists and subsequent writers each had a different agenda.

 

Where's the slightest bit of evidence that Jesus ever "threw it out there" for any part of the bible?

[Margee]

 

Hi Folks,

 

I have been watching several On-line forums and one of the things an Atheist raised was the Unforgivable Sin.

 

I have a question about this - On this same fourm several Christians gave 6 different interpretations meaning no one really knows what the heck this sin is. However I have a bigger question here.

 

Essentially the way I read and understand it is that to speak evil of the Holy Spirit then you have comitted it.

 

Anyhow --- I was reading a passage here : 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 

 

This means that as we read above that all spirits are very alike and that further testing needs to be done to determaine weather its from God or not. E.g. Unclean and Clean Spirits are all types of the one Spiritual Form.

 

 

What do you think?

 

 

It was so goddamed exhausting trying to figure out the good, clean spirits from the bad.  I always seemed to pick the bad ones..... It was like trying to know god's will??? Two good jobs would be offered at the same time and you had to ask god which one he wanted you to take??? And then he would send 'the spirits' to try and tell you....Jeeeeuuuuusssss 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

I don't know what I believe - I would ideally like to say to myself that it was added by chance and that Jesus never said it.  If this was the case why did 3 Gospels record it apart from the Black Sheep 'Gospel of John'

 

Possibly it came from Q-Document but this would confirm that Jesus said it otherwise in later revisions it would have been removed.

 

Secondly why the fuck did Jesus throw that out there and not explain it!

 

 

Think about this, in the Garden of Gethsemane, jesus prayed a prayer.  he said, "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not my will but thine be done."  Immediately afterwards, jesus went and rebuked his disciples because they were sleeping.  "Could you not stay and pray with me for one hour?"  The gospel also states that jesus' sweat ran like drops of blood.

 

Here's the problem: people who are in such an emotional state that the tiny vessels surrounding their sweat glands burst open, thereby causing them to sweat blood, tend to also be extremely loud.  If jesus were actually so fraught with emotion, the cacophony alone should have woken his disciples up, unless they were too far away to hear it.  It is still possible that jesus was sweating blood but also being very quiet about it, in which case, the disciples could have been close by and still not heard it.

 

The point is, NOBODY actually heard what jesus said when he prayed in Gethsemane; so how is it in the gospel?  Did jesus tell somebody later on what he had said?  If so, why command us not to pray in public like the pharisees do, but in our closets?  Did the holy spirit inspire the writers with the knowlege of what jesus said?  If so, why not inspire the writers not to contradict each other?

 

If, then, somebody wrote down what jesus prayed in Gethsemane, without actually HEARING what jesus prayed in Gethsemane, how can you be sure that jesus ever even mentioned any kind of sin that could not be forgiven?  How do you know somebody didn't just write that jesus said it, without actually hearing him say it?

[pawn]

It seems you still believe in Jesus, and that the gospels are actually factual records of what he said and did.

 

Did it ever occur to you that Jesus was just a revolutionary Jewish Rabbi that had a following, caused a stir, was killed and then.... A few hundred years later a Jewish cult had formed around him, claiming he is risen from the dead and he's the messiah and recorded it in fictional books called gospels?

 

It's all make believe, just like any other religion. You just happen to be born in a Christian culture and have a Christian background. If you were born in India, you'd likely be Hindu and you'd be worried about some other set of gods and theological principles. If you were born in Iran, you'd likely be worried about what Allah thought of you, etc.

[ShackledNoMore]

Ah, yes, I remember about "trying" the spirits to see if they were of god.  If it was the same flavor of delusional nonsense taught at my particular church, the spirit was of god.  If it was some equally absurd, but sufficiently different flavor of delusional nonsense, the spirit was of the devil.

Consider the early Christian church: There were many schisms, each of which tended to think that the others were heretics.  One of the key elements of the proto-orthodox Pauline christianity that ultimately won out was the divinity of Jesus and the stance that he was God incarnate.  Many of the sects that lost to proto-orthodoxy and were ultimately purged as heretical disagreed.  I think that the spirits that were similar and needed to be tested were rival sects of the early christian church, hence the admonishment in the text that was selected as canon, which conveniently happened to support the proto-orthodox doctrine of Jesus' divinity!

As for blasphemy of the holy spirit, it's a more effective tool if it's vague and undefined.  That's much more effective at harnessing fear and keeping adherents in line.