Earth: Making Of A Planet

[Margee]

 

Even if we are made from stardust......It won't change anything will it? We still live in a suffering world. There will be nothing 'spiritual' about that for me....

 

 

Even if we are made from stardust it will not change any outcomes.  Yes, we will still live in a suffering world.  Also, I agree that there is nothing spiritual about being made from stardust.

 

The thing that I think does change if, as the evidence suggests, we are made from stardust is our outlook on the universe and ourselves.  I think one of the many things about Genesis that has wrongly shaped our outlook is that God is portrayed as having separate acts of creation.  The heavens are created, the earth is created, animals are created, plants are created and then the last separate act of creation is that human beings were said to have been created.  If believed, those distinct acts of creation separate us from the universe and everything on Earth.  However, if the common material from which everything is ultimately made is the dust from stars that died billions of years ago, then we human beings are not separate from everything else.  Rather, we have something in common with everything in the universe - a common origin.

 

If you think about it, we share something very basic with stars.  There is a beginning point for stars and there is a beginning point for each of us.  Stars grow and develop and so do we.  Finally, stars ultimately "die" as do we.  This is the cycle of things and we are as much a part of that cycle as are stars albeit stars have longer "lives" than we do.

 

I remember when I first found out that, as one example, the formation of gold is a byproduct of a dying star which ultimately exploded.  So the gold in our jewelry, though found on Earth, was actually formed in some star that existed billions of years ago.  I find that fact simply amazing!!

 

None of this proves anything necessarily spiritual.  In fact, what I have described is simply the way things are given the natural laws that control our universe.  But from a philosophical standpoint it means that we are not separate from the universe, but are a part of it.  That gives me comfort in a world full of both joy and suffering.

 

 

 

Excellent!! wonderful points of view!! Love it! Thanks OF!

 

It's a nice way of looking at things and the nice thing about what you are saying is that there is evidence for this. That's important to me right now!! *hug*

 

Well, I just feel like a nature girl right now.! Part of the earth I am!   I'm going for a nice walk and enjoy everything around me that is beautiful!!

[Kris]

I too have been exploring evolution more as well Margee and enjoyed this video--- it certainly covered a lot of ground. I felt sorry for the dinosaurs though. It was sad to watch them die off but it was something that needed to happen in order for us to come to be!

[bornagainathiest]

Hey Margee!

 

What Deva said.

We humans haven't been around that long compared to other species. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale

 

Do you see, '2 Ma: First Hominids' almost at midnight on this geologic clock?  Even that tiny, one-pixel wide sliver is too big to show only humans.  On this scale, we're invisible. 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

 

p.s.

Please note that this diagram deals only with the history of the Earth.  The universe is about four times older than our planet, being dated to 13.8 billion years old.

 

p.p.s.

Yes, I know it's difficult, but one of the biggest obstacles to overcome (if you want to deal honestly with the facts) is to stop thinking that we humans are the reason for everything.  It's simple.  We aren't. 

[pawn]

Margee,

It almost seems like you are looking for "permission" to give up spirituality and allow yourself to embrace naturalistic atheism.

 

Like yourself, I have been a spiritual seeker my whole life, as you know from my testimony. I find great inner peace and clarity now that I have completely given up "spirituality".

 

As I said in my testimony, for me losing my faith in christianity was the final straw in my lifelong religious seeking. I started out in the eastern religions, like Buddhism and yoga, and I went through all that before finally settling on Christ.

 

Once I dropped my faith in Christ, there was nothing left for me. So it was a quick and easy transition to pure atheism and naturalism... Basically a cold logic view of the universe as per Richard Dawkins or Stephen hawking.

 

It sounds like for you it was reversed. It sounds like you first left christianity, and are only recently letting go of your quest for spiritual meaning in other forms.

 

I for one say, "go for it!"

 

I know this site is ex-Christian, and not "ex-religious", but for me personally it was the dropping of ALL religion that helped me gain sanity and peace of mind.

 

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[Margee]

Margee,

It almost seems like you are looking for "permission" to give up spirituality and allow yourself to embrace naturalistic atheism.

 

Like yourself, I have been a spiritual seeker my whole life, as you know from my testimony. I find great inner peace and clarity now that I have completely given up "spirituality".

 

As I said in my testimony, for me losing my faith in christianity was the final straw in my lifelong religious seeking. I started out in the eastern religions, like Buddhism and yoga, and I went through all that before finally settling on Christ.

 

Once I dropped my faith in Christ, there was nothing left for me. So it was a quick and easy transition to pure atheism and naturalism... Basically a cold logic view of the universe as per Richard Dawkins or Stephen hawking.

 

It sounds like for you it was reversed. It sounds like you first left christianity, and are only recently letting go of your quest for spiritual meaning in other forms.

 

I for one say, "go for it!"

 

I know this site is ex-Christian, and not "ex-religious", but for me personally it was the dropping of ALL religion that helped me gain sanity and peace of mind.

 

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

 

 

Pawn. you hit it on the nose for me. I wanted more than anything in this world to hold on to 'something' after I joined Ex-c. I sit here and read and read and look up everything , hoping that something might make a little sense to me. I wanted to believe in some kind of 'higher power'. I don't really want to let go. Because then, I really will be among the minority. Even the most  non religious people in the world believe in some concept.

 

As I was 'hunting', something would make a little sense to me and I'd be all excited and then the powerful subject of 'suffering' continued to plague my mind. I really started to question things a few months ago when those two children in the next province to me, got strangled by the huge 15 foot snake. I could NOT find the 'lesson' in that. I had fucking nightmares about that for a week.

 

I am the girl who once wrote many songs for the church and stood before the audience and sang, ''There is Power in The Blood'' and believed in it more than anything during those times. Even when I joined EX-c - I couldn't believe I was here!! That is the truth. Atheists to me were bad people who rebelled and didn't have many morals. (of course I didn't know any) This is what the world tells you. If I admit that I am an natural atheist, I lose even more friends. Everyone I know has a 'higher power'. It's a dilemma for me. It will be something that I will have to keep inside. I don't find any of this easy.

 

I stood out under the stars last night (again) and begged for one of my dead loved ones to show me I was wrong. My cousin and best friend Kenny, who died a few months ago promised me that if there was anything after death - he would do everything in his power to show me. I just looked up at the night sky and knew in my heart, that I was going to have to admit to myself that I am an atheist. Some may laugh at me, some may be bored with my ramblings, but I am crying even as I write this. Right now I find being an atheist so lonely. I know I will adapt somehow..I always do.... I have no other choice but to admit who I am, at least to myself.

 

I wanted to peel all the layers of this onion when I joined this board, but I had no idea what ride I was in for. I'm a girl who gets disappointed real easy, so this is a 'son of a bitch' to me.......

 

Thanks for writing that post Pawn. I really appreciate it. *hug*

[pawn]

But don't you see?  It is not that you have no higher power...NATURE is the higher power.  Nature created the Universe via the big bang, natural laws caused all of this, including YOU to evolve over billions of years.  So in a sense, Nature itself IS divine.  It is eternal and infinite, as all of the Universe is contained by it.  And you yourself are not a separate entity from that Divinity, for you yourself ARE an expression of nature, just as much as a galaxy, an earthworm, a sunset....it is all part of the One nature which explains all things...  I guess I am a pantheist in this sense, but only in the most rational, scientific sense, not in the supernatural sense.

 

Smile, YOU are not alone, the whole universe is here with you.

[RogueScholar]

Rogue Scholar: If only we were satisfied with living in the physical world and getting enough to eat and having our various physical needs met! That would indeed be the "paradise" referred to in mythology.  Although at some time in prehistory that was probably the case, we all know that isn't the case now, and hasn't been for at least for the last 100,000 years or when the first cave paintings were made.  I submit that this is when we became aware that we were different from everything else living.  Why?

 

I am not at odds with what science is saying.  Tyson is posing questions about "intelligence" but I am saying "self-awareness" which is a bit different question.  There is still something in human consciousness that is unexplained, at least to my satisfaction. And no, that does not mean I think that "God did it."

 

I am not sure we were the only "animal" with this “apparently” unique attribute. It is likely different ancestors were on the Earth at the same time. It's difficult to imagine millions of years of evolution and it would be difficult to say exactly where this "something" definitely began even if we could study every single one of our ancestors. It is somewhat like asking when is the exact point in time a child becomes an adult? While we know maturation occurs, it is such a gradual and continuous process of stratification, it is difficult to nail a specific date/time down. This is likely a working analogy for asking about our distant ancestors.

 

We simply do not have the answers to some of these questions and I have to admit ignorance. However, we are learning new things every day, take the glial cell example from earlier. I am not disagreeing with you, I only want to be cautious against going from we are not sure to shoehorning in a non-physical explanation before we have fully explored the physical possibilities. Not that I am accusing you of doing so however.

[Deva]

Rogue Scholar I don't think we have any disagreement here. Maybe there was one moment when this self-realization thing hit and we realized we were something separate from everything else or several people manifested it over time.  I don't know, and at this present time I don't think we can do anything more say it did happen. 

[TrueFreedom]

Carl Sagan wrote a fascinating book speculating on the origins of human intelligence:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dragons-Eden-Speculations-Intelligence/dp/0345346297

[Joshpantera]

 

 

It is quite fascinating....but that's about it?

Perhaps you are wondering about meaning and purpose. One thing the notion of a creator brings to the table is purpose. We may not know the creator's purpose, but it is reasonable to infer that there was some purpose for the act of creation. I think from an emotional level, that is the biggest attraction for believing in a creator.

 

But even without a creator, there could still be some overarching purpose to life, a purpose even beyond what each individual carves out for herself or himself. One that I have often thought about is that it is the entire universe which is evolving. However it came to be, when life first appeared, that was the beginning of a new stage in the universe's evolution. That stage was a living universe and eventually, a universe which is self aware. Looked at from that perspective, we are the universe being aware of itself. When you look at the stars at night, you are one part of the universe looking at and contemplating itself.

 

 

I hope I don't come across as argumentative  ....but I see no purpose right now. I am beginning to agree with others that we make our own 'purpose'.

 

Of course we are aware, but I don't think it's because the universe is 'aware'. There are far too many disasters for the universe to 'know' what it's doing. 

 

That doesn't mean I can't make a nice life for myself......a nice 'purpose'....

 

It could be as simple as that the universe didn't start out aware, and so we're aware, but rather it started out unaware or with lesser degrees of awareness and therefore a greater and greater awareness has evolved over time for the 'purpose' of an increasing degree of self awareness and more importantly self observation - star dust gaining the ability to observe and become the sensing organs of the universe. A completely natural purpose and meaning.  

[ExCBooster]

(I would make a slight quibble that evolution is a formal theory in the same way that gravitation is. Science uses the word "theory" differently than we do in casual speech, since nothing is above testing. Science and life on Earth resources through UCMP Berkeley, if you want a very nice overview.)

 

Margee, just because you're a result of a chemical reaction doesn't at all mean that life is meaningless or bleak. Here's where I put consciousness: my brain is a self-aware meat computer. My consciousness glides along on that knife-edge of chemical reactions, and the person I was when I started writing this sentence is already dead, with that chemical state resolved. We're far from the only conscious life... even on this planet. Humanity is just one iteration of other, similar meat computers. What goes on in my cat's head isn't in any way qualitatively different than what goes on in mine. It's not a matter of has/doesn't have consciousness, when it comes to things with a brain like mine. It's just a matter of different organization. My cat thinks catlike things, and I think humanlike things. If we can use cats as model organisms for learning how our own brain works, and apply that knowledge to surgeries and drugs, there's no magic thing that happens when you get enough neurons together in just the right way. If I assume I am conscious, and it comes from my brain, and other things have brains similar in fundamental ways to mine, it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that consciousness is pretty widespread. There is no hard line, but a gradient. The world wasn't made in stark black and white just for me, it's an emergent process in shades of grey and glorious colours. (Some of which I, as a human sort of ape don't have the hardware to even comprehend.) The other side of the coin, of course, to abiogenesis (the theory that life arose from sterile chemicals), and evolution via natural selection - is that we are all, all life on Earth, family. We share 98% of our genes with chimps, but also 50% with cabbage. If I have a conscious "soul", of course my dog does too. (And, depending on how far we push the gradient, possibly that mat of dubious goo I found in the vegetable crisper drawer in the bottom of the fridge... that's up for debate.)

[ExCBooster]

Okay, I don't want to double post, but this morning, I did have the time to watch the whole documentary, and I took notes, which I will present here. It's a good overview, but they did compress a lot of things for time. As BAA points out with his nifty scale graphic, if it were to scale, you'd be spending almost an hour of that hour and a half long program watching blue-green algae and bacteria divide. Whee. Consequently, they also spent a lot of time on "cool" and "famous" ancient creatures, like dinosaurs, and human ancestors, skipping some of my very favourite extinct creatures. No love for Dunkleosteus? Or Glyptodonts? Phorusracidae? Anyway...

 

It was outside the scope of the documentary to treat how life arose, but that's abiogenesis. It's not like suddenly *poof* bacteria happened. As soon as chemicals could self-replicate, they'd have populated the oceans in a comparative flash, since they'd have no competition, and be literally swimming in nutrients. Let's face it, without bacteriophages, we'd be buried in bacterial sludge.

 

As for the rest of it, there's no such thing, especially in science, as 100% sure. Literal certainty doesn't exist. However, there's a truckload of evidence for all of the main points in that documentary. If you seek it's monument, look around you. Maybe I take it for granted, because of my background, but where I live (the city owes its existence to a reef on a sea floor 350 million years ago, and the bedrock is crawling with fossils), they graded the subdivision my house is in very hard, and it's as easy as: 1. Step outside back door. 2. Look down. There's chunks of fossilized corals and whatnot all over the place. But, there's plenty of other evidence, too. Some life forms are really good at surviving, and they're around to this day. Like dragonflies. And the stromatolites, too. The Iron deposits we mine and use for steel are ancient rust, from those ancient cyanobacteria, and the Oxygen they released into the atmosphere. Coal and petroleum oil are called fossil fuels for a reason. Our modern, technological world literally runs on the legacy of Earth's life. Aside from the stromatolites, however, there are plenty of other holdovers from earlier ages, like the coelacanth "lobe finned" fish. Or, on the subject of dinosaurs, birds. Fun fact: some birds still have claws on their wings, as a legacy from their early past. Famously, the hoatzin, and not so famously, ostriches, and kiwis. The legacy of these changes are carried in our DNA, and studies of DNA - since mutations occur at a constant rate - can tell us who's related to whom, just like on daytime TV. Humanity, too, is changing. If you can drink milk without getting ill, you are lactose tolerant, and one of a minority of the world population with a mutation that allows your body to continue processing lactose into adulthood. In most other mammals, this switches off after weaning. My bet is on the side of the evidence. And the evidence for this is very, VERY strong.