Ravenstar Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal? If I am wrong, please.. do correct me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I hate the idea that god has given us "free will" and then if we decide we don't want to believe in him, or worship him, then we are condemned to hell-- what kind of free will is that. I am a manager-- and I actually don't like the "yes men" mentality-- I like people who question me on occasion because they help me see things in a different way-- and sometimes a better way. I am not always right. If god was smart, he would like people like us, because we provide a balance for him. But, this is one of the biggest reasons that i have trouble believing in god at all-- he will send me to hell for disagreeing with him, and he supposedly made me smart enough to question him, which is also wrong. Ugghh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Exodus 9:12 "And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses." If God says you will not listen then God will use his magic powers to make you not listen. That way God gets to kill your oldest son. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11. Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 15, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2013 Free will is a lie. You can't tell me I have free will if there is a punishment attached to my making the wrong choice, especially if the punishment so greivously outweighs the choice. Again, what kind of father would take his kid into a candy store and say, "You can have anything in this store you want, but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, then I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue"? Furthermore, my ability to make decisions has been informed by genetics, nature/nurture, environmental factors, physiological factors, and a host of other exterior sources all of which were beyond my control. This may seem oversimplistic, but in essence, I make the decisions that I make simply because of the person I have been made into. Given the choice between Pepsi and Coke, I will always choose Pepsi because life has made me into a person that prefers Pepsi. Even if I choose Coke, I am only doing so in reaction to the knowledge that I am a devout Pepsian, not because I am truly free to enjoy Coke in the same way I enjoy Pepsi. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Maybe I'm wrong,(I don't remember everything I read in the NT)but did the NT make explicit mention of it? I don't remember the NT indicating that gawd cared whether we have a free will or not. It seems to me all gawd cared about was whether people believe in his son, whom gawd himself sent to a gruesome death to pay for vicarious sins for which He arranged us to be adjudged guilty; Gawd arranged for Adam And Eve to sin by eating an apple, which through one of His strokes of genius, caused all of Adam's and Eve's progeny to be sinners at birth. Accordingly, because all people inherited sin they must somehow believe that it was their fault, rather than gawd's, that jesus was murdered. If no such belief can be created out of nothing, even thousands of years after the fact, then to hell with all of those unimaginative unbelieving sinners. Literally. What a man! What a plan! bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 If one goes for literalism then free will is an illusion. Gawd created every little thing in the fucking universe right? And gawd is omniscient right? There goes your free will right down the drain. Gawd would then have known everything in advance what we would ever think or do, even before it started creating us. If it had been "in our cards" that we would eventually sin and fall away from it, it would have known before creation and created us differently. Unless of course it really cared shit for us making the "right" choices... or is a sadist creating reasons for punishing us later. So yeah, what is it you morontheists? Either your claims of gawd as omniscient creator are wong (and thus you are lying assholes) or we are all just obeying a script that it knew before our lives even started (and thus your gawd is a sadistic asshole). Fat choice there eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal? If I am wrong, please.. do correct me! Nope. It's always been that way. Even in the O.T. People could listen to God or ignore him. Free will. Not to argue, but just to explain. Consider yourself corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 15, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal? If I am wrong, please.. do correct me! Nope. It's always been that way. Even in the O.T. People could listen to God or ignore him. Free will. Not to argue, but just to explain. Consider yourself corrected. I don't think that is entirely accurate. Someone has already mentioned that god intentionally hardened Pharaoh's heart so that even if he had wanted to stave off the plagues, he wouldn't have been able to make the choice to do so. Also, consider the choice given to Adam and Eve. They were expected to choose between good and evil, but the difference between good and evil was never explained to them; and they couldn't have possibly understood the difference until after they had eaten the fruit and experienced evil. How was that a choice they were free to make? Then there's the problem of god's refusal to intervene when bad things happen to good people, or rather when evil people do evil things to good people. god refuses to intervene because he doesn't want to interfere with people's free will; but the free will of the good people is being interfered with regardless. In fact, it's being taken away from them altogether; or at least, I doubt you'd find too many good people who'd willingly choose to be raped, molested, murdered, or even thumped lightly on the head and their money taken. So, it's really only the free will of evil people that god doesn't want to interfere with. What a delightful prick! I can't imagine why I stopped believing in him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 There is also a scripture about the end times in which god will send a "strong delusion" that many will believe---- and probably go to hell for. Majorly unfair!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal? If I am wrong, please.. do correct me! Nope. It's always been that way. Even in the O.T. People could listen to God or ignore him. Free will. Not to argue, but just to explain. Consider yourself corrected. Well we do have to define "really didn't give much of a shit". In the OT God would smite people if they didn't listen to him so. Sometimes God would do it in very creative and cruel ways. So I think God did give a shit if people ignored God. But the Bible is very specific about God preventing Pharaoh from doing the right thing so maybe what God really cares about is having an excuse for doing creative and cruel things when he smites humans. Genesis 9:14-? "And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." Because next time I destroy the Earth I'm going to use fire. I'm going to burn you and all the cute puppy dogs and all the cute kittens. But I promise you that I won't drown you next time. I've tied a rainbow around my finger so I will remember it's got to be fire. Besides that smell of burning flesh is so pleasing. I want to burn you all right now but I'm going to wait until the time is right. It might be very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Free will? Life is a show and we're all performing from a script. We just don't know it. If God intervenes in the life of just one person to influence an outcome - we do not have free will. This is why I don't understand the purpose behind Christians prayers for the "unsaved." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritrider2013 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Free will, to me always meant that I had options.One of the biggest reasons for me leaving religeon was this doctrine. What the bible teaches is this: you have free will but if you do not make the right decision you choose the curse instead of the blessings by default. Either way, you are screwed. One thing I have learned through my journey is that I have to be objective in all things that I am putting into my mind. Religeon is very subjective. I made it through. I didn't reject my human intelligence as I tried to be a part of this group. I was never highly suggestable. But, for several years I did Yeild up my life. I decided to take my whole life back. I always had this choice even before the bible told me I had it. I felt so emotionally and mentally ill at the end of my religeous life that I had no choice. I had to leave because I wanted to live. In the end, I chose life- real life-based on reality. Ironic, that the bible that tries to suck you in actually ends up leading you out of it. I actually feel saved and free out here in the real world for the very first time. Of course there is still a mountain of opposition from the religeous world and from myself due to indoctrination. I am getting there. Forums like this help. I don't feel alone in my experience. (excuse my spelling,couldnt find spell check on this thing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 15, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2013 What the bible teaches is this: you have free will but if you do not make the right decision you choose the curse instead of the blessings by default. Either way, you are screwed. Is that what the bible teaches or is it simply what has become normal doctrine in western christendom? Granted, it's been a few years since I read the bible, but from my 30+ years of indoctrination, I don't ever recall a single bible verse that mentioned free will or alluded to the free will doctrine as presented from the pulpit. I'd gladly accept being proven wrong on this, but I suspect that this idea isn't really fully addressed anywhere in between genesis and revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Reading the OT I see a lot of "you go do this, and you go do that", there doesn't seem to be a lot of choice.. God never says, "how do you feel about wiping out the next town you come across?" or anything of the sort. He destroys the entire world with a flood, because they displeased him... saving 8 people (didn't these people have children? I mean all Noah's kids were married but had no kids? sort of odd really) He smites all sorts of people.. but gives carte blanche to David, who is a bit of a prick... I guess people could have left the tribes of Israel and joined other communities, but I'm not sure if there is anything in the OT about that kind of apostasy... The NT, well, we all know how much free choice is involved with "love me or burn forever". I agree that the modern christians and there "but you CHOOSE to go to hell", is patently ridiculous and I'm not sure how they reconcile that with any kind of morality. It's an interesting but bizarre concept... if God is omniscient which christianity definitely claims, it's actually absurd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Yeah, I don't find free will in the bible. On the contrary there are verses such as Philippians 1:29 that explicitly state that belief is granted. In other words, it comes from without, not within. Nothing I've read tells me that the decision is solely ours. To me, free will is all undone by the mere fact that an all-knowing god uses something we have little control over (belief) to determine our eternal destiny. Belief is highly influenced by circumstances we cannot control. It's not a switch we can just flip at will. When it comes to belief in a god, an entire world-view must be built to substantiate that belief. This can include indoctrination from an early childhood. So yes, many believe. But it's ultimately not of their own doing. They're just products of their parents influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Christian free will is just a man made religious concept to make them fell good that they "chose Jesus." "I chose Jesus, so I am a goody, I'll be saved, unlike that scumbag atheist over there that chose wrong , he's going to BURN!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 There is an underlying sadism to christianity... creeps me out, and the 'free will' doctrine (scriptural or not) only adds a thin layer of rationalization to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymenaeusAlexander Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 the 'free will' doctrine (scriptural or not) only adds a thin layer of rationalization to it. The way I used to put it to other Christians who would use a "free will" theodicy in my Calvinist days was, "It only moves the wrinkle in the carpet." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Free will? Life is a show and we're all performing from a script. We just don't know it. If God intervenes in the life of just one person to influence an outcome - we do not have free will. This is why I don't understand the purpose behind Christians prayers for the "unsaved." Kind of an interesting statement LC. Per the Holy Spirit, God surely intervenes. Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. So what is God's will vs. our will/understanding. Don't beat me up people, I just like to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 16, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 16, 2013 Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. Wouldn't the very idea that we are all just manifestations of god automatically preclude the notion that any of us had free will? I mean to say, if we are all simply what god manifests as us, then our choices are merely his choices manifested in and through us. Or am I misunderstanding your current mode of thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Free will? Life is a show and we're all performing from a script. We just don't know it. If God intervenes in the life of just one person to influence an outcome - we do not have free will. This is why I don't understand the purpose behind Christians prayers for the "unsaved." Kind of an interesting statement LC. Per the Holy Spirit, God surely intervenes. Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. So what is God's will vs. our will/understanding. Don't beat me up people, I just like to talk. What's the point then if all of this is directed by God and the things that are supposed to make us unique individuals is actually just another manifestation of God's desires? No thanks. I don't want any part of that. There's no love there and there's truly no freedom there. I am me, separate of any supernatural (read mythical) direction. My identity isn't just an extension of a self-centered, divine creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. Wouldn't the very idea that we are all just manifestations of god automatically preclude the notion that any of us had free will? I mean to say, if we are all simply what god manifests as us, then our choices are merely his choices manifested in and through us. Or am I misunderstanding your current mode of thinking? Yeah, that's the way I see it. Not sure how a Christian can accept this premise along with the premise of free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 16, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 16, 2013 Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. Wouldn't the very idea that we are all just manifestations of god automatically preclude the notion that any of us had free will? I mean to say, if we are all simply what god manifests as us, then our choices are merely his choices manifested in and through us. Or am I misunderstanding your current mode of thinking? Yeah, that's the way I see it. Not sure how a Christian can accept this premise along with the premise of free will. Then, of course, there's the other side of that coin: being that we are capable of choosing acts of brutality, perversion, and unadulterated evil, of "our own free will", how could we possibly be manifestations of a loving god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Been contemplating us as manifestations of God for so long, I can't put myself back in my more fundamental thoughts. Wouldn't the very idea that we are all just manifestations of god automatically preclude the notion that any of us had free will? I mean to say, if we are all simply what god manifests as us, then our choices are merely his choices manifested in and through us. Or am I misunderstanding your current mode of thinking? Yeah, that's the way I see it. Not sure how a Christian can accept this premise along with the premise of free will. Then, of course, there's the other side of that coin: being that we are capable of choosing acts of brutality, perversion, and unadulterated evil, of "our own free will", how could we possibly be manifestations of a loving god? Yup, good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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