Free Will

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11.

Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture.

Free will can exist with God's having known how we would choose. God's omniscience allows him to know, in the absolute sense, something will happen and yet the choice still remains with the free wiled agent. So given ...

 

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

(Eph 1:5)

 

It is perfectly compatible with reason that God knew of a possible world in which He knew with perfect knowledge how we would freely choose. He then actualized this world instance, that is, created a world and all the circumstances in which He knew you would freely choose a given set of actions. In this sense we are predestined and yet still posess free will. The word predestined does not neccessary mean He forces us to choose.

 

This becomes much clearer when you combine into your exegetical mix the enormous number of verses where people do have choice. God is clearly telling us through out the Bible we have a choice.

 

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Jos 24:15)

 

 

 

 

Really OC? Humans can't have free will and be predestined to make the choices they make at the same time. If it says in one part of the Bible that people are predestined for X and in another that they have free choice, then it is a contradiction.

 

No, as I just pointed out that it is not a logical contradiction if you consider God's omniscience and perfect knowledge at the time of creation. He could have created a world in which He knew how you would freely choose. He could have created a world in which you did not choose that way, but did not.

 

 

If he knows what choices I'm going to make before I'm even born, then I have no free will. I am only doing what he predestined me to do. He may give me the illusion of free will so that I believe I have free will, but I most certainly do not. In that case, I would just be a stupid robot, who thinks it chooses everything it wants, when in reality, I am programmed to make all of the choices that I make, so I would not have the ability to choose something different.

 

If I choose X at one time, but then change my mind and choose Y, then this god of yours already knew that I would pick X first and then Y. If I had free will, he would not know every choice I was going to make, before I made it. He would know every possible choice I could make and every choice I made, as I made it, but none of my choices would be known beforehand.

[pawn]

Bible god is a moron. He failed philosophy 101.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Bible god is a moron. He failed philosophy 101.

 

Nah, he didn't even take Philosophy. He decided not to take that elective and instead went with a lesson on how to be a narcissistic dick. I'd say he aced that class!

[OrdinaryClay]

If he knows what choices I'm going to make before I'm even born, then I have no free will. I am only doing what he predestined me to do. He may give me the illusion of free will so that I believe I have free will, but I most certainly do not. In that case, I would just be a stupid robot, who thinks it chooses everything it wants, when in reality, I am programmed to make all of the choices that I make, so I would not have the ability to choose something different.

 

If I choose X at one time, but then change my mind and choose Y, then this god of yours already knew that I would pick X first and then Y. If I had free will, he would not know every choice I was going to make, before I made it. He would know every possible choice I could make and every choice I made, as I made it, but none of my choices would be known beforehand.

 

Knowing a choice and forcing the choice are two completely different things. Let's say you knew your wife so well that you knew she would make lasagna every other Friday night. Your confidence in this knowledge grew with the number of years you were married. Your knowing is not forcing her to make that choice. The only difference in this case is that God knows infallibly because he is omniscient, but just because He has perfect knowledge does not change the fact that you still make the choices in your life.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

If he knows what choices I'm going to make before I'm even born, then I have no free will. I am only doing what he predestined me to do. He may give me the illusion of free will so that I believe I have free will, but I most certainly do not. In that case, I would just be a stupid robot, who thinks it chooses everything it wants, when in reality, I am programmed to make all of the choices that I make, so I would not have the ability to choose something different.

 

If I choose X at one time, but then change my mind and choose Y, then this god of yours already knew that I would pick X first and then Y. If I had free will, he would not know every choice I was going to make, before I made it. He would know every possible choice I could make and every choice I made, as I made it, but none of my choices would be known beforehand.

 

Knowing a choice and forcing the choice are two completely different things. Let's say you knew your wife so well that you knew she would make lasagna every other Friday night. Your confidence in this knowledge grew with the number of years you were married. Your knowing is not forcing her to make that choice. The only difference in this case is that God knows infallibly because he is omniscient, but just because He has perfect knowledge does not change the fact that you still make the choices in your life.

 

 

The example you used here does not accurately describe what is happening. First, when you meet your wife, you need to get to know her first, so you don't know everything she does before she does it. You need to first learn that she liked to make lasagna every other Friday night. All of this information is something humans would need to learn.

 

If a god creates someone, already knowing every decision that person would make, before creating them, then that is very different. This means that this god knows everything they will say, think or do, so they can't say, think, or do anything different that this god didn't already know they were going to do. It's exactly like building a robot that does everything you program it to do.

[mymistake]

 

 

How in the world would you know if God predestined us to make a choice we did not make? This is not knowable by you or I so you can not make any claims about what is "laughable".

 

 

The most unknowable part of the idea is that it involves God.  What God?  Where is the objective evidence for this God?  Until you cough up that it is laughable to think about this God doing things, requiring things or making things.  And don't even start with specific claims about God interacting with specific people if you can't show God exists.  That is laughable.

[mymistake]

 

I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal?

 

If I am wrong, please.. do correct me!  

You are incorrect. The Old Testament is filled with choice. I just gave a verse above ..

 

 

Yeah, do what God commands or else God will smite you in a foul, nasty, unpleasant way.

 

The choice is yours, you poor unfortunate souls.

 

 

Did God kill your brother?  Well then, you have to fuck your sister in law.  Don't care if you don't want to.  Don't care if you think that is icky.  Don't care if it feels like incest.  And nobody cares if she doesn't want to.  Go fuck you dead brother's wife.  Oh you don't want to fuck her all the way?  Bam!  God kills you dead.  Now your younger brother has to fuck your wife and your older bother's wife too.  It's the family values found in the perfect moral code.

Genesis 38:7-11

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11.

Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture.

Free will can exist with God's having known how we would choose. God's omniscience allows him to know, in the absolute sense, something will happen and yet the choice still remains with the free wiled agent. So given ...

 

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

(Eph 1:5)

 

It is perfectly compatible with reason that God knew of a possible world in which He knew with perfect knowledge how we would freely choose. He then actualized this world instance, that is, created a world and all the circumstances in which He knew you would freely choose a given set of actions. In this sense we are predestined and yet still posess free will. The word predestined does not neccessary mean He forces us to choose.

 

This becomes much clearer when you combine into your exegetical mix the enormous number of verses where people do have choice. God is clearly telling us through out the Bible we have a choice.

 

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Jos 24:15)

 

 

 

 

Really OC? Humans can't have free will and be predestined to make the choices they make at the same time. If it says in one part of the Bible that people are predestined for X and in another that they have free choice, then it is a contradiction.

 

 

Contrariwise, if god has predestined us to make choice "X", but we end up making choice "Y", then god is not omniscient, since it did not forsee the choice we would make.  This is why the idea of "god's will" is so laughable.

 

How in the world would you know if God predestined us to make a choice we did not make? This is not knowable by you or I so you can not make any claims about what is "laughable".

 

 

What's laughable here is how badly you missed the point.  If god has predestined my choices, then I have no control over the decisions I make; I simply make the choices I was predestined to make.  I cannot change my choices; but then, neither can god.  Therefore god is not omnipotent.  On the other hand, if I have genuine free will, devoid of any interference by god, then god cannot know which choice I will make.  Therefore god is not omniscient.

 

Furthermore, I never said anything about knowing that god had wanted me to choose "X" and choosing "Y" anyway.  I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth like that.  Nevertheless, if I have genuine free will, then the possibility does exist for me to choose something god didn't want me to.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

 

Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11.

Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture.

Free will can exist with God's having known how we would choose. God's omniscience allows him to know, in the absolute sense, something will happen and yet the choice still remains with the free wiled agent. So given ...

 

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

(Eph 1:5)

 

It is perfectly compatible with reason that God knew of a possible world in which He knew with perfect knowledge how we would freely choose. He then actualized this world instance, that is, created a world and all the circumstances in which He knew you would freely choose a given set of actions. In this sense we are predestined and yet still posess free will. The word predestined does not neccessary mean He forces us to choose.

 

This becomes much clearer when you combine into your exegetical mix the enormous number of verses where people do have choice. God is clearly telling us through out the Bible we have a choice.

 

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Jos 24:15)

 

 

 

 

Really OC? Humans can't have free will and be predestined to make the choices they make at the same time. If it says in one part of the Bible that people are predestined for X and in another that they have free choice, then it is a contradiction.

 

 

Contrariwise, if god has predestined us to make choice "X", but we end up making choice "Y", then god is not omniscient, since it did not forsee the choice we would make.  This is why the idea of "god's will" is so laughable.

 

How in the world would you know if God predestined us to make a choice we did not make? This is not knowable by you or I so you can not make any claims about what is "laughable".

 

 

What's laughable here is how badly you missed the point.  If god has predestined my choices, then I have no control over the decisions I make; I simply make the choices I was predestined to make.  I cannot change my choices; but then, neither can god.  Therefore god is not omnipotent.  On the other hand, if I have genuine free will, devoid of any interference by god, then god cannot know which choice I will make.  Therefore god is not omniscient.

 

Furthermore, I never said anything about knowing that god had wanted me to choose "X" and choosing "Y" anyway.  I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth like that.  Nevertheless, if I have genuine free will, then the possibility does exist for me to choose something god didn't want me to.

 

 

The thing I have always wondered... If OC's god exists and knows every decision that we will make beforehand, why would that be? The only way he could possibly know that is if he purposefully programmed predestined everyone to make every choice they're going to make.

 

This means that if I decide to go rape a ten year-old girl right now, if his god knew I was going to do it before I was born, then he programmed predestined me to go rape that girl. Then after I'm done, a police officer would put a bullet in my skull and I would go to Hell, just like he knew beforehand. So this would mean that every human that goes to Heaven or goes to Hell was destined to go to either place, with neither having any say in it whatsoever.

 

It just makes no sense how anyone could have free will and have all of their choices known before they even exist. In order to believe that we can have free will and have our choices all known beforehand, long before we're born, one must first twist their brain into a pretzel to make any sense of it whatsoever. I guess OC has successfully done it. He has twisted his brain into a pretzel. Incredible!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11.

Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture.

Free will can exist with God's having known how we would choose. God's omniscience allows him to know, in the absolute sense, something will happen and yet the choice still remains with the free wiled agent. So given ...

 

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

(Eph 1:5)

 

It is perfectly compatible with reason that God knew of a possible world in which He knew with perfect knowledge how we would freely choose. He then actualized this world instance, that is, created a world and all the circumstances in which He knew you would freely choose a given set of actions. In this sense we are predestined and yet still posess free will. The word predestined does not neccessary mean He forces us to choose.

 

This becomes much clearer when you combine into your exegetical mix the enormous number of verses where people do have choice. God is clearly telling us through out the Bible we have a choice.

 

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Jos 24:15)

 

 

 

 

Really OC? Humans can't have free will and be predestined to make the choices they make at the same time. If it says in one part of the Bible that people are predestined for X and in another that they have free choice, then it is a contradiction.

 

 

Contrariwise, if god has predestined us to make choice "X", but we end up making choice "Y", then god is not omniscient, since it did not forsee the choice we would make.  This is why the idea of "god's will" is so laughable.

 

How in the world would you know if God predestined us to make a choice we did not make? This is not knowable by you or I so you can not make any claims about what is "laughable".

 

 

What's laughable here is how badly you missed the point.  If god has predestined my choices, then I have no control over the decisions I make; I simply make the choices I was predestined to make.  I cannot change my choices; but then, neither can god.  Therefore god is not omnipotent.  On the other hand, if I have genuine free will, devoid of any interference by god, then god cannot know which choice I will make.  Therefore god is not omniscient.

 

Furthermore, I never said anything about knowing that god had wanted me to choose "X" and choosing "Y" anyway.  I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth like that.  Nevertheless, if I have genuine free will, then the possibility does exist for me to choose something god didn't want me to.

 

 

The thing I have always wondered... If OC's god exists and knows every decision that we will make beforehand, why would that be? The only way he could possibly know that is if he purposefully programmed predestined everyone to make every choice they're going to make.

 

This means that if I decide to go rape a ten year-old girl right now, if his god knew I was going to do it before I was born, then he programmed predestined me to go rape that girl. Then after I'm done, a police officer would put a bullet in my skull and I would go to Hell, just like he knew beforehand. So this would mean that every human that goes to Heaven or goes to Hell was destined to go to either place, with neither having any say in it whatsoever.

 

It just makes no sense how anyone could have free will and have all of their choices known before they even exist. In order to believe that we can have free will and have our choices all known beforehand, long before we're born, one must first twist their brain into a pretzel to make any sense of it whatsoever. I guess OC has successfully done it. He has twisted his brain into a pretzel. Incredible!

 

 

I disagree.  He has not twisted his brain into a pretzel; his brain was predestined, by his own free will, to become a pretzel.

[OrdinaryClay]

The thing I have always wondered... If OC's god exists and knows every decision that we will make beforehand, why would that be? The only way he could possibly know that is if he purposefully programmed predestined everyone to make every choice they're going to make.

 

God's omniscience includes both what we will do and what we would have done given other circumstances but didn't.

 

So no, this knowledge does not come from "pre-programming" since what we did not do could not have been programmed.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

The thing I have always wondered... If OC's god exists and knows every decision that we will make beforehand, why would that be? The only way he could possibly know that is if he purposefully programmed predestined everyone to make every choice they're going to make.

 

God's omniscience includes both what we will do and what we would have done given other circumstances but didn't.

 

So no, this knowledge does not come from "pre-programming" since what we did not do could not have been programmed.

 

 

god's omniscience may include what we would have done given other circumstances, but it would also include the knowledge that other circumstances would not be presented to us at the time the decision in question was made.  We may have chosen differently given different circumstances, but we are given the circumstances god already knows we will be given.  Thus, god already knows the choices we will make.  You may choose not to call it "pre-programming", and I would see your point in doing so, but the end result is still the same: We make the decisions that were predetermined for us. 

 

I can see this line of thought turning into a bottomless pit of convolusion; don't be too alarmed if I extract myself from it suddenly.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

The thing I have always wondered... If OC's god exists and knows every decision that we will make beforehand, why would that be? The only way he could possibly know that is if he purposefully programmed predestined everyone to make every choice they're going to make.

 

God's omniscience includes both what we will do and what we would have done given other circumstances but didn't.

 

So no, this knowledge does not come from "pre-programming" since what we did not do could not have been programmed.

 

 

But if he already knew what we will do and when we will do it, then it must be programmed into us from the beginning. Clearly what we didn't choose, given other circumstances, what wasn't programmed because he didn't plan on those other circumstances happening from the very beginning.

[centauri]

 

Universal free will is effectively demolished in the New Testament in Rom 8, Rom 9, and Eph 1:4-5,11.

Free will is a popular Christian talking point that ignores scripture.

Free will can exist with God's having known how we would choose. God's omniscience allows him to know, in the absolute sense, something will happen and yet the choice still remains with the free wiled agent. So given ...

 

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

(Eph 1:5)

 

Foreknowledge is not the issue, determinism is the issue.

God not only knows what will happen, he determines it, sets it in place, and makes it happen.

It's his idea and his plan.

Whether or not God does this on a constant basis is irrelevant.

All it takes is just one example of this to throw cold water on the universal free will claim.

 

At least some people are subjected to this.

 

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

As the scripture clearly states, it is God's will and choice that determine the outcome, not human will.

 

Destined according to his will and his purpose, not yours.

It further states that he works out all things according to his will.

 

It is perfectly compatible with reason that God knew of a possible world in which He knew with perfect knowledge how we would freely choose. He then actualized this world instance, that is, created a world and all the circumstances in which He knew you would freely choose a given set of actions. In this sense we are predestined and yet still posess free will. The word predestined does not neccessary mean He forces us to choose.

Predestine means to determine in advance.

You don't have endless choices when a particular action has already been selected for you.

God has the endless choices, not humans.

The script was already written by God, ahead of time.

It's his idea and his action that makes it so.

Predestination is not merely foreknowldge.

 

Things can be destined without any input or choice on the part of the individual.

 

Rom 9:16

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

It is not of him that willeth, but by decree from God.

 

This becomes much clearer when you combine into your exegetical mix the enormous number of verses where people do have choice. God is clearly telling us through out the Bible we have a choice.

 

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Jos 24:15)

It does not become much clearer.

It shows that there are Bible doctrines that cannot be reconciled.

Added to that is the problem of God manipulating some humans to behave in a certain way. (Deut 2:30)

The fact that verses can be found show that choice is possible does not negate the many verses that declare God's sovereign choice determines the outcome.

Free will must also be unencumbered by ultimatums or punishments for "improper" choices.

Joshua 24 indicates choice, however the choice is made under threat.

Deut 28 outlines the many curses that God will shower on those that don't make the correct choice.

 

 

[Ro-bear]

If at the moment of creation God knew exactly how everything would pan out, why did he bother?  Why did he get pissed off so much in the OT if he KNEW it was going to happen?  Explain that!

[florduh]

If at the moment of creation God knew exactly how everything would pan out, why did he bother?  Why did he get pissed off so much in the OT if he KNEW it was going to happen?  Explain that!

Exactly.

 

According to legend, an all-knowing, all-powerful and loving god created a race that he KNEW would make choices that send them to Hell, but he did it anyway. That single fact is enough to discredit the Bible scenario as anything akin to reality.

[duderonomy]

 

 

 

 

I was just thinking about the entire free will crap, and I realized that the OT god really didn't give much of a shit about anyone's free will. Suddenly in the NT.. this is a big deal?

 

If I am wrong, please.. do correct me!  

 

Nope. It's always been that way. Even in the O.T.  People could listen to God or ignore him.  Free will.

 

Not to argue, but just to explain. Consider yourself corrected.

 

 

I don't think that is entirely accurate.  Someone has already mentioned that god intentionally hardened Pharaoh's heart so that even if he had wanted to stave off the plagues, he wouldn't have been able to make the choice to do so.

 

Also, consider the choice given to Adam and Eve.  They were expected to choose between good and evil, but the difference between good and evil was never explained to them; and they couldn't have possibly understood the difference until after they had eaten the fruit and experienced evil.  How was that a choice they were free to make?

 

Then there's the problem of god's refusal to intervene when bad things happen to good people, or rather when evil people do evil things to good people.  god refuses to intervene because he doesn't want to interfere with people's free will; but the free will of the good people is being interfered with regardless.  In fact, it's being taken away from them altogether; or at least, I doubt you'd find too many good people who'd willingly choose to be raped, molested, murdered, or even thumped lightly on the head and their money taken.  So, it's really only the free will of evil people that god doesn't want to interfere with.  What a delightful prick!  I can't imagine why I stopped believing in him.

 

 

Actually, I should explain further. I said people could listen to Biblegod (as in obey him) or ignore him. I didn't say the choices were any good, 

There was free will in the OT the same as the NT.   Listen to Biblegod or else.  I was being sarcastic.

 

Prof, an argument could be made about Pharoah having had lots of chances before he finally made up his mind to ignore god. God hardened Pharoah's  heart, but that was a result of Pharoah's decision, not the cause of it.

 

Adam and Eve also had the same choice (I even used a variation of this argument somewhere on this site a couple of days ago), either listen to god or not. They didn't know the consequences, but they still had the choice.

 

I think an argument might be made against your third paragraph too, since the Bible says that the rain will fall on the just and the unjust, i.e; bad things might happen even to the 'best' of 'good' people, and those things don't necessarily happen to them by their own choice, or as a result of their choices.

 

I suppose someone might say that there is more to free will then just listening to Biblegod or not, but in the context of the Bible, no there isn't. 

 

 

I still stand by my original post during which I said something to the effect of "you can't tell me I have free will if there is a punishment for my making the wrong choice, especially if that punishment so greatly outweighs the choice."  I contend that any god who puts forth free will as "choose me or go to hell for all eternity", either doesn't understand the concept of free will, or is a delusional tyrant.  We could argue the bible point by point (adam and eve, pharaoh, etc.), but the main principle remains: It's not free if there are strings attached.

 

 

Don't confuse "free to choose between poop or crap"  with any strings that may be attached.

 

There are strings attached to every free will decision we make, even in real life, because choices involve (include) consequences.

[♦ ficino ♦]

We went through all this with OrdinaryClay back in April.  Now he's returned and posts the same stuff as though nothing had been said before.

 

That is typical troll behavior.

 

OC has the burden of showing that:

1. making a choice = having free will (we've been over this many times)

2. verses that talk about creatures' choices trump verses that assert God's predetermination of events, incl. those choices (OC has never refuted Centauri on this)

3. Molinism is not vitiated by equivocating on "we."  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Don't confuse "free to choose between poop or crap"  with any strings that may be attached.

 

There are strings attached to every free will decision we make, even in real life, because choices involve (include) consequences.

 

 

I agree with the existence of consequences and with their attachment to our choices; and yes, in real life, that is exactly how it works.  However, when it comes to the christian doctrine of free will, I refer back to my analogy of the father taking his son into the candy store and saying, "You can have anything you want but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you."  This is not a proper cause/effect relationship; this is the cruelty of a tyrannical despot lording authority over his subjects.  The son in this analogy is not free to choose; he is compelled to please his father.

[duderonomy]

"Don't confuse "free to choose between poop or crap"  with any strings that may be attached.

 

"There are strings attached to every free will decision we make, even in real life, because choices involve (include) consequences."

 

I stand by that.

 

Your analogy doesn't fit.

[bornagainathiest]

For those who are new to this ongoing cycle...

 

Ficino tells the truth. 

 

Not only has this furrow been ploughed in April, it's been gone over time and time again before then.  For years. To the point where the furrow has deepened and deepened to become a bottomless abyss of refusal, denial and stonewall stubborns on OrdinaryClay's part.  Like those elements of the Tea Party that will not shift one inch from their entrenched positions, Clay will not be moved on this issue.

 

And this is despite the fact that Centauri has clearly, patiently and repeatedly cited the relevant portions of the Bible that categorically show that God does not just passively foreknow all things and permits us to make free choices about them, but actively predetermines all things according to His will.  Any fair and honest reading of the text clearly shows this.

 

I post this message as a warning to those who aren't familiar with this endless re-run.  This thread is a scenario straight out of Groundhog Day.  The same arguments will be presented, the same verses quoted, the same points made and re-made, over and over and over again.

 

So why do we Lions continue to engage with Clay like this, when there's clearly no hope of resolving this issue?

Not for the reasons he'll claim.

He'll presume to know our thoughts and feelings, saying that we secretly know that the God of the Bible truly lives, but we wilfully deny it. 

 

No. We continue to engage with him for the sake of other principles.

Speaking only for myself, I do so for the sake of those lurking and observing these threads.  Those who are considering de-conversion from Christianity and who are covertly watching these goings on.  I feel a duty to show them that such bulldozers-for-Jesus like Clay do not have all the answers.  That zealots like him are not worth emulating.  That such fanatical adherence to scripture is innately negative and destructive.  That intolerance, bigotry and harm are the true results of this 'love' Biblical Christianity claims to epitomize and practice.

 

So, if you are thinking of getting involved here or if you are wondering if this thread is going anywhere, my answers to you are these.

 

1.

If you take issue with anything he says, Clay will cut you down... whatever you write.  He's not here to save souls or to evangelize. That's not his job. (He's on record as saying that.) 

 

2.

This thread is going... Nowhere.  This thread will run and run without resolution or until the Mods lock it.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

Sad, because I was enjoying the foray into the concept of free will as used by religion. It is a highly misunderstood thing which begs to be questioned and examined critically.

[florduh]

Speaking only for myself, I do so for the sake of those lurking and observing these threads.

 

I think you speak for many others as well. There is no other valid reason for engaging such a mindset.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"Don't confuse "free to choose between poop or crap"  with any strings that may be attached.

 

"There are strings attached to every free will decision we make, even in real life, because choices involve (include) consequences."

 

I stand by that.

 

Your analogy doesn't fit.

 

Duderonomy, I also stand by my original post in this thread.  I can see that we have different perspectives and that neither of us is willing to change our stance.  This doesn't mean anything.  Neither of us is right or wrong, we simply don't agree.  I'm okay with calling a truce and agreeing to disagree.  Are you?

[Kris]

I mentioned in an earlier post that there is a verse in which god will send a "strong delusion" so that many will believe a lie. What kind of god would do something like this? Belief in this delusion will likely result in many going to hell--- yet GOD is the one manipulating them.

 

Then take Revelation where god "allows" the devil his time to deceive many and then in the end these same people are sent to a lake of fire.

 

What kind of manipulative asshole would do this kind if thing? It was stuff like this that made me question and then eventually decide I couldn't worship a god who would do things like this. Free will my ass-- this is total manipulation and abusiveness!!!