Christian: Convert me if you think you can.

[EdwardAbbey]

If you think you can convert me to believe, then be my guest.

 

Use your best argument and give it your best shot.

 

I could be wrong about my non-belief and if warranted, willing to change my position.

 

If you think you can prove to me with empirical evidence that God is literally true and that Jesus was truly the Son of God, died for my sins and came back to life so I could be saved from my sins and be with him in heaven forever, then by all means, convert me to Christianity.

 

Also, I don't want to "just believe", I want to "know". That way there won't be any room for "doubt".

 

Therefore, let the conveting begin.

[Taphophilia]

They haven't found Jimmy Hoffa's body yet, have they? Maybe he resurected too. At least, I can prove he existed.

[MQTA]

Nope, sorry, can't do it

[godlessgrrl]

<listening to the sound of crickets, and watching the tumbleweeds roll by...>

 

[Antlerman]

If you think you can prove to me with empirical evidence that God is literally true and that Jesus was truly the Son of God, died for my sins and came back to life so I could be saved from my sins and be with him in heaven forever, then by all means, convert me to Christianity.

What if instead of empirical evidence, you used peyote buds or shrooms instead? Would that count? Is truth through hallucinogens invalid? I'm just thinking in the spirit of Christmas celebration, that's all

 

Merry Mythday

[Ruth]

"If you think you can convert me to believe, then be my guest.

 

Use your best argument and give it your best shot.

 

I could be wrong about my non-belief and if warranted, willing to change my position.

 

If you think you can prove to me with empirical evidence that God is literally true and that Jesus was truly the Son of God, died for my sins and came back to life so I could be saved from my sins and be with him in heaven forever, then by all means, convert me to Christianity.

 

Also, I don't want to "just believe", I want to "know". That way there won't be any room for "doubt".

 

Therefore, let the converting begin."

 

 

Dear EdwardAbbey,

 

It is with the deepest regret that I must inform you of my complete and total inability to comply with your request. As a limited human being with a thousand tasks before me, I cannot spend my life tossing pearls at a stone wall in the hope that it will someday crack. My purpose is not to convert the hardened (keep in mind, I can convert no one), but to be available to those who find themselves cracking or weathering down in the storms of life. You, my friend, have chosen not to believe (probably as a result of a weak or nonexistent faith; because I have been in a state of disbelief myself, I agree that there is no reason to live and die for a God that you do not believe in).

 

Sadly, I conclude... with a most sincere apology on part of Christianity, the Church as it exists and anything that has brought you to this. Understand though: I do not apologize for God because He is utterly blameless. Men have been given every chance to know their Creator and to love Him; throughout history, mankind has hated light and loved darkness.

 

As God loves you, and so do I, if only with a mere shadow of His great love. I tell you the truth: if I knew that my death could bring you to repentance, I would die for you as for any other. But, my blood is worthless... Christ has already died that death. And Edward? He died for you, and for me. To know this is to have faith; I cannot give it to you and you cannot find it on your own, it is the gift of God. If you truly want it, pray earnestly for faith. God is gracious and all-powerful – he can yet forgive.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ruth

[Checkmate]

Dear EdwardAbbey,

...........

As God loves you, and so do I, if only with a mere shadow of His great love. I tell you the truth: if I knew that my death could bring you to repentance, I would die for you as for any other. But, my blood is worthless... Christ has already died that death. And Edward? He died for you, and for me. To know this is to have faith; I cannot give it to you and you cannot find it on your own, it is the gift of God. If you truly want it, pray earnestly for faith. God is gracious and all-powerful – he can yet forgive.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ruth

Ah, yes, to be young, innocent and gullible again! It must be SO nice to have a full and overflowing Easy Answer Jar.

 

Ruth, I'm going to go easy on you, since you are young, emotionally charged and don't know any better. But THIS I can guarantee you: In a few years, after your emotional high wears off, and you've exposed yourself to the Real World, your belief in Jesus will suffer the same fate as your childhood belief in Santa Claus.

 

How do I KNOW this? Because it happened to ALL of us! We ALL had that same first "blush" with Christianity. You've only been "saved" eleven months, you said somewhere else. What makes you think that you know more or better than those of us here who had been "saved" for 5, 10, 15, 30 and 50 YEARS!

 

"Been there, done that." Stop trying to teach your momma how to suck eggs, child.

 

I'll stop now, as I don't feel like abusing a child. You run along now and play church.

 

Here's hoping that you don't get too emotionally and psychologically crippled in the process.

[MQTA]

You, my friend, have chosen not to believe (probably as a result of a weak or nonexistent faith; because I have been in a state of disbelief myself, I agree that there is no reason to live and die for a God that you do not believe in).

 

I guess this is what you're taught about 'these people'? Weak or nonexistent Faith?

 

What about the Other side, they've BTDT and now KNOW better, more? What about those who've spent years mastering it, then spent years RESEARCHING the validity once it started tugging at their cognative disonnance brains that something was wrong?

 

What happens when the historicity doesn't pan out?

 

What happens when you realize Adam and Eve are less valid than Santa Claus? He was modelled after a real person, the finest example of how man becomes magic.

[Guest Satan]

Dear EdwardAbbey,

 

It is with the deepest regret that I must inform you of my complete and total inability to comply with your request. As a limited human being with a thousand tasks before me, I cannot spend my life tossing pearls at a stone wall in the hope that it will someday crack. My purpose is not to convert the hardened (keep in mind, I can convert no one), but to be available to those who find themselves cracking or weathering down in the storms of life.

<<<<snipped, blah, blah, blah,>>>>>>>

Sincerely,

 

Ruth

Typical Christian cop-out! Allow me to say that for a New Convert, you sure have mastered the bullshit excuses! Why are you so incapable to help Edward? Aren't you FILLED with "God's" Holy Spirit? Don't you have all the answers, all the power? I love this! Ruth, no one expects YOU to do anything! But aren't you connected to Him who can do ALL? Why is your "God" so bountiful to YOU, and yet so miserly to these other True Seekers? Don't kid yourself. These people DID once believe as do you. They begged and pleaded and prayed for "God" to give them faith. Some did so for decades. Yet your "God" was silent.

 

What absolute bullshit!

 

And YOU Christians have the gall to call ME the "Father of Lies"?

[Vigile]

You, my friend, have chosen not to believe (probably as a result of a weak or nonexistent faith; because I have been in a state of disbelief myself, I agree that there is no reason to live and die for a God that you do not believe in).

 

I guess this is what you're taught about 'these people'? Weak or nonexistent Faith?

 

 

Frankly I would take this as a compliment. Weak or non existent faith comes as a result of education, common sense, and is directly correlated with the size of a person's IQ. Faith is merely gullibility and even christians know that gullibility is a poor attribute. Ruth, most of us once had your child-like faith and as we learned more that faith was permanently replaced with something much more solid. We can never regain our faith just as you can never regain your belief in Santa. It's just not possible nor is it desirable.

[Ruth]

I can see that I'm in over my head here. I'm sorry if I've offended anybody through my gracelessness, but I assure you that I have good intentions. yes, you're right - I am new. I'm learning. And I'm as spastically enthusiastic, clumsy a new believer as can be. believe me, I know what y'all think and I used to think like that too - not as intellectually, of course - I'm only 17! Also, I'm not good at, nor do I enjoy debates.

 

I stand by what I said before. I'm unable to help Edward. He knows the message, is possibly more familiar with the Gospel than me (I don't know his past). All I know is that after 4 months of beating my metaphorical head against a figurative wall of pride, I found faith. It can be hard, especially when life has hardened your heart to God and His Word, as it did mine.

[MQTA]

I can see that I'm in over my head here. I'm sorry if I've offended anybody through my gracelessness, but I assure you that I have good intentions. yes, you're right - I am new. I'm learning. And I'm as spastically enthusiastic, clumsy a new believer as can be. believe me, I know what y'all think and I used to think like that too - not as intellectually, of course - I'm only 17! Also, I'm not good at, nor do I enjoy debates.

 

I stand by what I said before. I'm unable to help Edward. He knows the message, is possibly more familiar with the Gospel than me (I don't know his past). All I know is that after 4 months of beating my metaphorical head against a figurative wall of pride, I found faith. It can be hard, especially when life has hardened your heart to God and His Word, as it did mine.

 

17? Well.. then... are you here to Teach what you were fed, or are you here to learn from people who've had more than 17 years experience in what you're 'new' to?

 

You can ask many questions, but if your answers to others questions are parroting what you were taught by those who want you to believe what they teach you, for whatever reason, then you're going to find your beliefs ripped to shreds here.

 

You may see those with differing beliefs being on the wrong side of the tracks, but most were where you were, many years ago, and have learned much since then. It's not your fault you were fed what you were fed, but being here is a good step in the directing of factual revelation.

 

Welcome

 

If you want to be coddled and fed some more, then go to Christianforums.com and stick to the Christian Only sections.

[scotter]

Reading Mr. Grinch and MQTA, and even Satan’s thread, Ruth you get to know there is a wide spectrum of readers and posters here.

 

For Edward’s story, here: (Edward is it okay?)

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=3335

 

It’s a beautiful letter to Edward. Stay around Ruth, if you are looking for intellectual and intelligent conversations – although you have to sort them out, so you get to know us more.

[Checkmate]

Ruth, you haven't "offended" anyone (yet). We just want to assure you that we KNOW YOU. We know YOU much better than you can ever possibly imagine. We've been YOU. We were just as deluded and gullible, and what we dread is seeing yet another promising human mind (YOURS) brainwashed and sucked into this mindless cult. You have NO idea of the heartache, disappointment and pain that awaits you.

 

The fear that we have for YOU is tangible. Your fear for us is irrational.

 

I feel sorry for you. Come back in a few years (months) if you ever decide to use that brain that nature equipped you. I promise you that we won't gloat and say "I told you so!"

[Mythra]

All I know is that after 4 months of beating my metaphorical head against a figurative wall of pride, I found faith.

 

All I know is that after 25 years of beating my head against faith, I found freedom. I didn't walk away from religion (yes - religion; in spite of all of the "relationship" banter) , I escaped.

 

 

Here is what you and your faith look like to me:

 

 

 

 

the_abundant_life.bmp

[Ruth]

Thank you for the cordial reply. =) I understand that posting here is going merit a bit of flak, but I expect that and I'm not at all upset, nor does it in any way hurt my faith. I'm the intruder here; my username, "Ruth," is a pseudonym - I'm a "stranger in a strange land" as was she. I'm not here because I'm losing my faith, but because I want to grow stronger by understanding the ways of the world.

 

If you knew me, you'd know that I actually am, contrary to expectation, a very reasonable creature. I read a great deal, both Christian and non-Christian text - I am presently re-reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" to better understand how an intellectual Deist sees religion.

 

Also, I really haven't been "fed" anything - I am the only Christian in my immediate family, I originally sought God of my own initiative (I know now that He was calling me) and have always thought for myself in making decisions. I'm not the pure intellectual that I once was, but I do not close my eyes to reason merely because I have found God - He has given me logical capaciy and to waste it would be wrong.

[Mythra]

One word of advice, Ruth. You're a baby christian (no offense, but, you are). This forum is no place for a baby christian.

 

Christianity grows best in a protected environment. Exposing yourself to individuals who are able to use their brains is definitely NOT in the best interest of your "spiritual growth"

 

Sunday school and fellowship meetings. Stick to that for awhile. (unless of course, you want to find out the truth)

[Antlerman]

Sadly, I conclude... with a most sincere apology on part of Christianity, the Church as it exists and anything that has brought you to this. Understand though: I do not apologize for God because He is utterly blameless. Men have been given every chance to know their Creator and to love Him; throughout history, mankind has hated light and loved darkness.

Ruth,

 

You seem a genuine and sincere person and I respect and appreciate that. In order to help you understand a little what goes on here, this is a place of healing, in large part, for Christians who have become hurt and disillusioned from the many and varied, and inconsistent teachings of the may and varied flavors of Christianity that exist. If people lash out in disrespectful and often angry ways at some Christians, it's because of what they represent (or in many cases because they treat us with disrespect and arogance), and unfortunately sometimes people who are sincere catch the backlash of that. So just a forewarning. For myself, you are welcome here.

 

Regarding the one quote above, I would like to make a comment about it. I disagree with the blanket condemnation of all of mankind that you quote above out of the Bible. I believe most people do not love darkness. The birth of societies and even religions the world over are evidence that most people prefer peace and harmony. The bible writers in essence were sales people, peddling their beliefs seeking converts. Sales and Marketing 101: "Create, or exaggerate and exploit a problem, then sell the cure for it." So much, if not most of what is in the bible does not square up with reality, and when it does, it's stating the obvious that many, many other cultures and teachers have already said - in fact the biblical writer for the most part borrow from other cultues in their supposed exclusive divine revelation.

 

That's a bit of a mouthful early on, but hang around and you'll soon see how this makes much more sense than taking the claims of the bible strictly at face value. There is value in the Bible, but not in the way you likely have been taught.

[Taphophilia]

Hi Ruth,

 

Welcome. We are not out to deconvert you, we just expect you to think. As so many have said, we were once where you are now. We believed and we at one time were Truly Saved .

 

I became a Christian as a teen at a time when I was searching for meaning and spirituality and Christians were there to tell me they had all the answers. I didn't know any better and had never heard another side. I felt like I had found the answer and God called me to his flock.

 

I left because I learned the history of Christianity, the one you never hear about in church. The hundreds of years of slaughter, oppression, greed, and control. My heart was hardened when I was a Christian, people suffer due to their own sin. In effect, it's their own fault they suffer and I accepted that. Leaving Christainity has opened my heart to compassion.

 

Taph

[Asuryan]

Hi there, Ruth!

 

I have a little sister, she's 19 years old right now, so I can't avoid feeling more protective of you than other resident christians here like Daniel or Pug. Hope that doesn't bother you

 

I am the resident Italian ex-christian and ex-catholic. I often like to digress about how a particular situation or event would develop, and be dealt with, in Italy. My deconversion took place when I was ten and reached its apex and conclusion when I was fourteen, so my situation here is pretty different from yours.

 

A thing I'm sure of, is that seeing the reactions of the people around me (strict traditionalist catholics!) about death and old age, I see that they're much more afraid of death than I am. Don't you think that it's strange? I mean, I am the one thinking that everything a person is, its consciousness, ends with death (exception made for the memories s/he has left), but the people around me are afraid of death and talk about it with whispers and fear even if they believe (or declare their belief) in an afterlife.

 

Anyway. Welcome here!

[greasemonkey]

Hi Ruth

 

I'm glad I kept reading after your first post. A lot of the folks here are giving good advice; this really might not be the best place for you to try to "test your faith." More power to you if you choose to continue, most of us encourage differing beliefs. Personally, I like to see christians on here; if for no other reason, than for them to see that we aren't "the powers of darkness," but real people with our own lives & problems.

 

Sorry, but your age alone is enough to give me a lot of pause. I was involved with Wicca when I was in my early 20's and saw the same "power trip" mentality with new converts to paganism and magick. Ironicly, nearly 20 years later, I see no real difference between a seventeen year-old girl discovering the power of prayer and god's grace, and a seventeen year-old discovering the power of magick. The mentality is the same. You go to your god, the other goes to thier candles & incense. I don't get impressed much by rhetoric or faith; I've seen the same thing in other forms a little too often.

 

I tell you the truth: if I knew that my death could bring you to repentance, I would die for you as for any other. But, my blood is worthless...

 

This statement is not truth, although I don't doubt you believe it is sincere. If you were willing to give your life so that someone would repent, or be brought to god; that would be foolishness, not "faith." Not only would you not know for sure they were sincere, you would be depriving yourself of any future opportunities to "witness" or whatever. It might be a nice sentiment, but it's still a lie a lot of christians like to spout to feel superior. It might be hard to wrap your mind around the fact an athiest, a hindu, moslem or whatever would jump off a bridge in scary waters to save a drowning person. I can't speak for all, but I know I'd never get a nights rest knowing i let someone die I might have been able to save. If your above statement were sincere, I would suggest psychiatric help. Here on ex-christian, most of us hold a little bit higher standard than "repentance;" we ourselves are responsible for our actions. We have to live with our actions and sleep at night knowing some of the things we have done; we have no invisible entity to "forgive" us, we have to forgive ourselves and pledge to do better the next time for our own benefit.

 

"Ruth," is a pseudonym - I'm a "stranger in a strange land"

 

I don't know if you have ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Heinlien or not. It's a pretty good book, and even has some interesting tidbits about faith & reason, although a bit colored by the authors rather strange worldviews. Better still by Heinlien was "Job: A Comedy of Justice." I really recommend it, especially if you like sci-fi. I was really hesitant to read it, being the last thing he wrote before he died. I wasn't disappointed, I thought it may have been his best.

 

If you knew me, you'd know that I actually am, contrary to expectation, a very reasonable creature. I read a great deal, both Christian and non-Christian text - I am presently re-reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" to better understand how an intellectual Deist sees religion.

 

I think it is good to approach other ways of thinking. Paine was quite a revolutionary for his time; it's been years since I read him, but still very good reading. I might suggest that you try reading some of the "Jesus Seminar" material (you can find a lot online), and the sociology of the time surrounding the early origins of Christianity from some secular sources. Burton Mack is good. As much as I like Earl Doherty, his stuff is probably a little too "anti-Christian" for you, Mack is a little more neutral, and doesn't discount the actual historical existence of Jesus.

 

This may seem rude, but I just can't help myself...

 

I'm not the pure intellectual that I once was,

 

...not that I don't think there is ever "wisdom from the mouth of babes," but at seventeen, you might want to keep away from comments like that. Old fogeys like me tend to snicker...

 

nuff said.

 

BTW, welcome to the site! Hope you stick around.

[Vixentrox]

Dear EdwardAbbey,

 

It is with the deepest regret that I must inform you of my complete and total inability to comply with your request. As a limited human being with a thousand tasks before me, I cannot spend my life tossing pearls at a stone wall in the hope that it will someday crack. My purpose is not to convert the hardened (keep in mind, I can convert no one), but to be available to those who find themselves cracking or weathering down in the storms of life.

<<<<snipped, blah, blah, blah,>>>>>>>

Sincerely,

 

Ruth

Typical Christian cop-out! Allow me to say that for a New Convert, you sure have mastered the bullshit excuses! Why are you so incapable to help Edward? Aren't you FILLED with "God's" Holy Spirit? Don't you have all the answers, all the power? I love this! Ruth, no one expects YOU to do anything! But aren't you connected to Him who can do ALL? Why is your "God" so bountiful to YOU, and yet so miserly to these other True Seekers? Don't kid yourself. These people DID once believe as do you. They begged and pleaded and prayed for "God" to give them faith. Some did so for decades. Yet your "God" was silent.

 

What absolute bullshit!

 

And YOU Christians have the gall to call ME the "Father of Lies"?

Her's is a weak and feeble god that cant empower her to make a difference or that needs her to go out and spread the word to begin with.

[Taphophilia]

 

Personally, I like to see christians on here; if for no other reason, than for them to see that we aren't "the powers of darkness," but real people with our own lives & problems.

 

 

I thought that was a secret!

It would be too for us to employ the Vast Athiest Conspiracy if they know that.

Geesh!

 

Taph

[greasemonkey]

I thought that was a secret!

It would be too for us to employ the Vast Athiest Conspiracy if they know that.

Geesh!

 

Taph

 

Me and my big mouth!!!

[Sadie]

Hi there, Ruth!

 

I have a little sister, she's 19 years old right now, so I can't avoid feeling more protective of you than other resident christians here like Daniel or Pug. Hope that doesn't bother you

 

I am the resident Italian ex-christian and ex-catholic. I often like to digress about how a particular situation or event would develop, and be dealt with, in Italy. My deconversion took place when I was ten and reached its apex and conclusion when I was fourteen, so my situation here is pretty different from yours.

 

A thing I'm sure of, is that seeing the reactions of the people around me (strict traditionalist catholics!) about death and old age, I see that they're much more afraid of death than I am. Don't you think that it's strange? I mean, I am the one thinking that everything a person is, its consciousness, ends with death (exception made for the memories s/he has left), but the people around me are afraid of death and talk about it with whispers and fear even if they believe (or declare their belief) in an afterlife.

 

Anyway. Welcome here!

 

 

Hey Ruth. I want to let you know that I'm here too. It's jc from AY. And hi to everone on this board. I too am a Christian but not a new one. I've been a christian all my life. 21 years. So ya I'm young in age but not in the Lord. I'm not here to condemn, or judge, but to learn and encourage.

I won't at this time to to convince anyone to come back to the Lord. That is your decision and yours alone. But hopefully I will have the chance to civilly speak what Jesus Christ has done for me personally.