Christian: Convert me if you think you can.

[crazy-tiger]

If a Christian came up to you with a gun and said they were going to kill you if you didn't turn what would you do? You think you are strong in what you believe so why not stand up for it. Even if it means death. If your truth is that strong then why not be willing to die for it.

I would lie so that I would live...

 

Why? Because my belief is that this life is all that there is and I've yet to find any cause that's worth me giving up my life for. (besides, if I say I believe, it doesn't mean I believe)

 

 

 

Understand the difference... with no afterlife, death is the end. You believe that you get a second chance at life, so it doesn't matter if you get killed for your belief... That cheapens any sacrifice you make.

On the other hand, people like me only believe in the one chance... and when it's gone, it's gone. That makes any sacrifice we make into something rather impressive.

 

 

Are Christian dying for their faith really making a sacrifice? No... Should we be impressed that they are doing that? No... Is it something special and noble? No...

[Antlerman]

In need some clarification on this Martyrs organization. I am hearing the claim that they are putting other people’s lives at risk. How is this, in what way? I don't understand what they are supposed to be doing?

 

As far as dying for someone's beliefs or values, I don't think that is necessarily a foolish or wasteful thing to do - so long as innocent people aren't being dragged along with you, like the goddamned suicide bombers! I could see where I would be willing to forfeit my life to stand up for the principles, liberties, and freedoms of others to not have to kiss the holy ring of some religious authority. Standing up for and dying for a belief is not necessarily fanaticism. What about a soldier defending his countrymen? People die defending their values all the time.

 

The trick is being certain what you are willing to die for is worth dying for. The suicide bomber for instance, is a misguided pawn in someone else's power game. Now that's a tragic waste of life.

 

BTW: in case anyone wants to think that people being willing to die for the Christian belief somehow makes it valid, they would then have to say that everyone who is willing to die for a belief makes that belief valid. The only it shows is that that person believed it strongly enough to die for it, but their beliefs may have been misguided.

[Jose]

I know I said that I'd stay out of here because it's better for my blood pressure, but I couldn't let this slide.

 

If a Christian came up to you with a gun and said they were going to kill you if you didn't turn what would you do? You think you are strong in what you believe so why not stand up for it. Even if it means death. If your truth is that strong then why not be willing to die for it.

 

You know, this isn't that farfetched. The Christian leaders in America would kill all non-believers if they could. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have said as much.

 

In fact, they believe that God does it for them sometimes. Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the tsunami... that's God wiping out the unbelievers and the sinners, right?

 

THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR FAITH IS FEAR AND THE HOUSE BUILT UPON IT IS HATRED.

 

Quiet disbelief does not harm anyone.

Quiet faith does not harm anyone.

 

Your faith COMMANDS YOU TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND SHOVE YOUR FAITH IN THE FACES OF THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS YOU DO.

 

My beliefs suggest supporting those who would throw off the shackles FOR THEMSELVES.

 

Your faith DEMANDS SACRIFICE.

 

My beliefs suggest that sacrifices are no longer necessary.

 

Your faith CONTROLS YOUR ACTIONS... what you MUST THINK, what you MUST DO, what you MUST SAY, and what you MUST FEEL.

 

My beliefs suggest that you THINK FOR YOURSELF, DO WHAT YOU WANT, SAY WHAT YOU WANT, and FEEL HOW IT IS NATURAL TO FEEL.

 

I know I'm shouting, but you fucking Christians just don't get it, do you?

 

There is nothing more disturbing to me than seeing a couple of what should be happy, carefree young people SUCKED INTO A DEATH CULT and willing to sacrifice their lives for meaningless bullshit written in a book almost 2,000 years ago by MEN WITH AGENDAS... and not just sacrifice THEIR lives either, but to create a situation fraught with tension that will eventually ERUPT INTO ANOTHER LONG SERIES OF WARS.

 

CHRISTIANITY IS DESTROYING LIVES.

 

And if you don't think so, then you've willingly blinded yourself to the truth.

 

Rant over, but one last thing... WHO THE HELL LET ME COME IN HERE?! MY KEYBOARD CAN'T TAKE THIS KIND OF ABUSE!!

[SkepticOfBible]

 

You want the freedom to believe what you believe, I want the freedom to believe what I believe. You want us to "tolerate" well why so little tolerance for Christians?

 

 

So who is denying you the right to believe.

 

I believe in tolerance but I don't believe in Plurialism.

 

If you don't the difference, this site will show you that

 

RELIGIOUS EXCLUSIVISM, PLURALISM, & INCLUSIVISM

[Asuryan]

WHO THE HELL LET ME COME IN HERE?! MY KEYBOARD CAN'T TAKE THIS KIND OF ABUSE!!

 

 

[Antlerman]

You are right, people have and will continue to die for their beliefs even if misguided...I just don't think it right for people to die because they inadvertantly allow you into their home and you do what could get them killed or tortured and same with passing out bibles. I wonder how many people in areas like this would open their doors if the Christian said..." What I'm about to tell you may get you killed or tortured BUT...I feel like you should here my "truth" and it's worth the risk." or "Here, this book is the word of god, I know it's illegal and you could get killed or tortured for even having it your possession..." I'm picturing some doors being slammed.

Thanks for bringing me up to speed. You of course are right. I think to hand someone a bible without them really understanding what it may bring to them is comperable to handing them a hand grenade, with the pin pulled and justifying it that whatever happens is the will of the Holy Spirit. That's totally cavalier with another human being's life and is unforgivabley despicable.

 

I'm sure that converts will still come in underground movements, as many cults have survived persecution throughout the ages, but I agree the risks should be clearly made known to would-be converts first. Anything less than that is unforgivable.

[Jose]

It just gets me, it really does.

 

Here's two kids that want to give their lives over to Jesus and go preach to people who,

 

1. Don't want it.

2. Don't need it.

3. Would be better off without it.

 

I mean, seriously... what the fuck?

 

At 17 I was a believer, but I didn't shove it in anyone's face... I was too busy having unprotected sex and taking random chemicals while I was immortal to give two shits what other people believed.

 

To me, it's positively sick to think that there are kids out there who will go their entire lives without ever having their consciousness altered by anything other than wishful thinking... that there is a whole new generation of Christians who are going to need the support of people like us to get over the pain and fear that their bullshit cult is going to instill in them.

 

That really, really, really bothers me.

 

When I see a kid (who has absolutely no concept of their own mortality) preaching about an afterlife, it makes me physically ill to the point where I can't do anything but shake my head in pity and pop a couple of aspirin.

 

I've been accosted by fifteen-year-olds telling me all about their death cult and their savior and their eternal weiner roast for people who don't believe.

 

Fifteen!

 

I mean, seriously... go try and get in someone's pants! Go try smoking pot, or huffing freon, or try your first cigarette, or scam a few shots from your dad's liquor cabinet, or something! Go buy a CD for the sole purpose of shocking your parents. Go skip school and hang out at a head shop all day talking to hippies.

 

Any (or even all) of those things are less dangerous than prolonged exposure to Christianity!

 

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

Or, who knows?

 

Maybe they'll manage to hang onto the Lie their entire lives (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and when they're lying on their deathbed and slipping quietly into oblivion, they will have forever have missed the one chance to live their life, having spent the whole time looking forward to death.

 

 

"Those who spend their whole lives with their eyes fixed on heaven are bound to stumble and fall here on Earth."

 

~ Margaret Weis

[Antlerman]

I have to say Jose, that was one inspired speech! Right to the heart, no punches pulled. Preach it brother!

[Asuryan]

"Those who spend their whole lives with their eyes fixed on heaven are bound to stumble and fall here on Earth."

 

~ Margaret Weis

 

DRAGONLANCE!!!

This thread just keeps getting better and better

 

I hear you, Jose, I know how you feel, even if was never the booze 'n drugs 'n unprotected sex 'n cigarettes kind of girl. (I'm 26 yrs old now, so there's still time for me though! ).

Just don't scare the girls away. It's far too easy at this point for them to run away, deciding that this is a place full of aggressive, angry, bitter people, and that the lack of christ made us so. Even if we *know* we are not aggressive, angry, bitter people, we are still unbelievers to them, and I am sure that their ministers and families have warned them about us and the danger we represent for their soul.

So until they get to know us better, let us be careful around them. They're like crystal butterflies on a thin stick in the middle of a stinking sewer. We can and should cup our hands to get them away from there and help them flying towards the sky and the nearby flowering meadows... But if we shake the stick too much all at once or break it, the crystal butterflies will fall down inside the sewage.

 

Wow. I don't know where that metaphor came out from.

[SkepticOfBible]

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

I wouldn't say all of them would have bad memory. Just the fundies ones. I think most liberals christians have a very fulfilling life, just like us.

[Antlerman]

They're like crystal butterflies on a thin stick in the middle of a stinking sewer. We can and should cup our hands to get them away from there and help them flying towards the sky and the nearby flowering meadows... But if we shake the stick too much all at once or break it, the crystal butterflies will fall down inside the sewage.

 

Wow. I don't know where that metaphor came out from.

Oh wow. That was great! You are a poet. Inspired and ironic. That is a gift. Keep it up.

[Sadie]

Sadie, if your god ordered you to bash in the skulls of little babies and slit open the bellies of pregnant women, would you?

 

I would have to question whether or not it was God I was hearing. I know people claim when they do something horrific that God told them to, that doesn't mean He did.

 

 

I would lie so that I would live...

 

Why? Because my belief is that this life is all that there is and I've yet to find any cause that's worth me giving up my life for. (besides, if I say I believe, it doesn't mean I believe)

 

 

 

Understand the difference... with no afterlife, death is the end. You believe that you get a second chance at life, so it doesn't matter if you get killed for your belief... That cheapens any sacrifice you make.

On the other hand, people like me only believe in the one chance... and when it's gone, it's gone. That makes any sacrifice we make into something rather impressive.

 

 

Are Christian dying for their faith really making a sacrifice? No... Should we be impressed that they are doing that? No... Is it something special and noble? No...

 

Hey and that's fine if you would chose to lie in order to live. That's up to you. My choice is different. To me I have found something worth dying for. It may not be noble to you and I don't expect it to be, all I know is for me it would be worth it.

 

 

BTW: in case anyone wants to think that people being willing to die for the Christian belief somehow makes it valid, they would then have to say that everyone who is willing to die for a belief makes that belief valid. The only it shows is that that person believed it strongly enough to die for it, but their beliefs may have been misguided.

 

Hey I agree with you.

[SkepticOfBible]

Sadie, if your god ordered you to bash in the skulls of little babies and slit open the bellies of pregnant women, would you?

 

I would have to question whether or not it was God I was hearing. I know people claim when they do something horrific that God told them to, that doesn't mean He did.

 

 

unfortunelately these are the very commands that God of bible gave to his people?

[Sadie]

In need some clarification on this Martyrs organization. I am hearing the claim that they are putting other people’s lives at risk. How is this, in what way? I don't understand what they are supposed to be doing?

 

I wonder how many people in areas like this would open their doors if the Christian said..." What I'm about to tell you may get you killed or tortured BUT...I feel like you should here my "truth" and it's worth the risk." or "Here, this book is the word of god, I know it's illegal and you could get killed or tortured for even having it your possession..." I'm picturing some doors being slammed.

 

Uh don't you think these people already know this when a Christian starts talking. They know the law better than any outside missionary. So they would know accepting Christ mean death. If they let a missionary in isn't it their choice if they want to hear and accept?They could slam the door.

 

 

 

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

 

I am having the most awesome time of my life.

 

 

 

So until they get to know us better, let us be careful around them. They're like crystal butterflies on a thin stick in the middle of a stinking sewer. We can and should cup our hands to get them away from there and help them flying towards the sky and the nearby flowering meadows... But if we shake the stick too much all at once or break it, the crystal butterflies will fall down inside the sewage.

 

Wow. I don't know where that metaphor came out from.

 

Nice metaphor.

[crazy-tiger]

I would lie so that I would live...

 

Why? Because my belief is that this life is all that there is and I've yet to find any cause that's worth me giving up my life for. (besides, if I say I believe, it doesn't mean I believe)

 

 

 

Understand the difference... with no afterlife, death is the end. You believe that you get a second chance at life, so it doesn't matter if you get killed for your belief... That cheapens any sacrifice you make.

On the other hand, people like me only believe in the one chance... and when it's gone, it's gone. That makes any sacrifice we make into something rather impressive.

 

 

Are Christian dying for their faith really making a sacrifice? No... Should we be impressed that they are doing that? No... Is it something special and noble? No...

 

Hey and that's fine if you would chose to lie in order to live. That's up to you. My choice is different. To me I have found something worth dying for. It may not be noble to you and I don't expect it to be, all I know is for me it would be worth it.

I get the feeling that you've missed my point... you, as a Christian, don't believe you'll be dying. You just believe that you'll go on to another life.

So, no... you haven't found something worth dying for. You've instead found something worth giving up an earthly life for in the belief that you'll have a heavenly life to go to.

 

It sounds good, having a cause you'd die for... but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good when you consider just how little you're truely giving up.

And that's why that kind of sacrifice will never be noble...

 

I wonder how many people in areas like this would open their doors if the Christian said..." What I'm about to tell you may get you killed or tortured BUT...I feel like you should here my "truth" and it's worth the risk." or "Here, this book is the word of god, I know it's illegal and you could get killed or tortured for even having it your possession..." I'm picturing some doors being slammed.

Uh don't you think these people already know this when a Christian starts talking. They know the law better than any outside missionary. So they would know accepting Christ mean death. If they let a missionary in isn't it their choice if they want to hear and accept?They could slam the door.

Uh, that assumes that the missionary is going to start out talking about Christ from the get-go...

 

Do they do that? No, because they know damn well that if they do, they're gonna get a lot of doors slammed in their faces.

Instead they mis-lead them to get their foot in the door, then they start with the shtick...

 

 

 

There's a thought... didn't Jesus come out with a variant of the Golden Rule? Doesn't that mean that Christians really want others to convert them?

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

Uh don't you think these people already know this when a Christian starts talking. They know the law better than any outside missionary. So they would know accepting Christ mean death. If they let a missionary in isn't it their choice if they want to hear and accept?They could slam the door.

 

You failed to see the part where missionaries SMUGGLE in bibles and pass them out and that I know personally someone whose husband did this. Where Christians play all nicey nice and then side-swipe people with the gospel. Give me a break Sadie, its shady, most of it is VERY shady and NOT upfront.

[Asimov]

I would have to question whether or not it was God I was hearing. I know people claim when they do something horrific that God told them to, that doesn't mean He did.

 

Interesting, considering your bible is rife with God telling people to do horrific things.

[Asuryan]

I get the feeling that you've missed my point... you, as a Christian, don't believe you'll be dying. You just believe that you'll go on to another life.

So, no... you haven't found something worth dying for. You've instead found something worth giving up an earthly life for in the belief that you'll have a heavenly life to go to.

 

This is a very good point.

Furthermore, I'd like to underline another thing: the difference between the earthly life and the heavenly life, as are described to us in the bible and from preachers and ministers and priests.

 

The earthly life is imperfect. Crimes, deaths, wars, these are horrible but don't trouble christians too much; what troubles and enrages christians most is *sin*. American christians did much more to try and outlaw abortion and gay human rights, than they did to help the people from new orleans or died because of the Tsunami in the east. I Personally find this shameful (for the christians) but let's go on.

The earthly life is imperfect, I was saying, death, wars, crimes, sinful people all around you, having to work for a living, your body slowly failing because of age, seeing your dear ones dying around you... And then, we have the heavenly life.

The heavenly life is introduced to us as a place and time of unlimited bliss. In heaven, there is no sin. No need to work for a living. No one dies. Our heavenly bodies won't age and will be perfectly functional. No wars and crimes, too. No competition at all. No lies and deceiving. And of course, let's not forget God's and Christ's proximity... being so close to your god, being allowed to commune with him, be in his presence, be inundated by his holy light. And so on.

 

If you stop and think about the descriptions we have of the Heavenly Life, and about the mundane world all around us, you'll quickly understand that the differences between the two cheapen *even more* the sacrifice that a christian martyr can make. It is, in fact, like throwing away an old, rusty bycicle without a wheel, only to receive seconds later a beautiful Lamborghini Diablo or a shining red Ferrari with all the accessories you can imagine, and you're even told that your new sports car won't need any gasoline to run, so you won't spend a dime and you won't pollute either. oh yeah, let's not forget that the bycicle will stop working altogether in about 80 years, while the sports car will last forever without a single scratch.

Is it really a sacrifice to throw away that bycicle?

Is it really a sacrifice for a christian to throw away a defective, faulty, sometimes painful and cruel life, in exchange for, well, an eternal life in heaven where everything is Perfect with a capital P?

Why do I keep using metaphors these days? Is it something I'm eating?

Did I put the Y in bycicle in the right place?

 

Questions, questions...

[MQTA]

I know I said that I'd stay out of here because it's better for my blood pressure, but I couldn't let this slide.

 

If a Christian came up to you with a gun and said they were going to kill you if you didn't turn what would you do? You think you are strong in what you believe so why not stand up for it. Even if it means death. If your truth is that strong then why not be willing to die for it.

 

You know, this isn't that farfetched. The Christian leaders in America would kill all non-believers if they could. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have said as much.

 

In fact, they believe that God does it for them sometimes. Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the tsunami... that's God wiping out the unbelievers and the sinners, right?

 

THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR FAITH IS FEAR AND THE HOUSE BUILT UPON IT IS HATRED.

 

Quiet disbelief does not harm anyone.

Quiet faith does not harm anyone.

 

Your faith COMMANDS YOU TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND SHOVE YOUR FAITH IN THE FACES OF THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS YOU DO.

 

My beliefs suggest supporting those who would throw off the shackles FOR THEMSELVES.

 

Your faith DEMANDS SACRIFICE.

 

My beliefs suggest that sacrifices are no longer necessary.

 

Your faith CONTROLS YOUR ACTIONS... what you MUST THINK, what you MUST DO, what you MUST SAY, and what you MUST FEEL.

 

My beliefs suggest that you THINK FOR YOURSELF, DO WHAT YOU WANT, SAY WHAT YOU WANT, and FEEL HOW IT IS NATURAL TO FEEL.

 

I know I'm shouting, but you fucking Christians just don't get it, do you?

 

There is nothing more disturbing to me than seeing a couple of what should be happy, carefree young people SUCKED INTO A DEATH CULT and willing to sacrifice their lives for meaningless bullshit written in a book almost 2,000 years ago by MEN WITH AGENDAS... and not just sacrifice THEIR lives either, but to create a situation fraught with tension that will eventually ERUPT INTO ANOTHER LONG SERIES OF WARS.

 

CHRISTIANITY IS DESTROYING LIVES.

 

And if you don't think so, then you've willingly blinded yourself to the truth.

 

Rant over, but one last thing... WHO THE HELL LET ME COME IN HERE?! MY KEYBOARD CAN'T TAKE THIS KIND OF ABUSE!!

 

wow that's a lot better than what I was gonna say. OTM

[MQTA]

 

If you stop and think about the descriptions we have of the Heavenly Life, and about the mundane world all around us, you'll quickly understand that the differences between the two cheapen *even more* the sacrifice that a christian martyr can make. It is, in fact, like throwing away an old, rusty bycicle without a wheel, only to receive seconds later a beautiful Lamborghini Diablo or a shining red Ferrari with all the accessories you can imagine, and you're even told that your new sports car won't need any gasoline to run, so you won't spend a dime and you won't pollute either. oh yeah, let's not forget that the bycicle will stop working altogether in about 80 years, while the sports car will last forever without a single scratch.

Is it really a sacrifice to throw away that bycicle?

Is it really a sacrifice for a christian to throw away a defective, faulty, sometimes painful and cruel life, in exchange for, well, an eternal life in heaven where everything is Perfect with a capital P?

Why do I keep using metaphors these days? Is it something I'm eating?

Did I put the Y in bycicle in the right place?

 

Questions, questions...

 

 

oh that's good!

 

but no, Bicycle

 

or if you get the Lamborghini of bikes, it's buycycle

[Asuryan]

 

Oh wow. That was great! You are a poet. Inspired and ironic. That is a gift. Keep it up.

 

*rustle* *rustle*

Ack! Where are the huggy and kissy smilies when I want them? I can't find those anymore!

 

Thanks, Antlerman I've noticed that I use more metaphors when speaking or writing english than when speaking or writing my native tongue. Could be because they're an extra help if I need to convoy a feeling or a thought in a language that is not mine

 

 

oh that's good!

 

but no, Bicycle

 

or if you get the Lamborghini of bikes, it's buycycle

 

Gotcha. Thanks!

[Vigile]

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

Exactly. Sadie and Ruth you should think long and hard about this statement while you have a chance. Don't be arrogant and assume that you are somehow more special than the rest of us who have been in your shoes. I was and I did exactly what Jose is warning you against. I wasted what should have been the best years of my life on NOTHING.

 

Here's a challenge. If the truth of your beliefs is real then it will withstand any tests you put it to. Go out and read the other side of the story. Check out Dan Barker's book, read Sagan, read the resources on this website. Challenge your beliefs. If they are true then they will make it through and will be stronger in the end for the testing you put them through. If not, then you will find yourself free to go out and LIVE YOUR LIVES. I really wish someone had challenged me like this when I was your ages.

 

I am having the most awesome time of my life.

 

Frankly you are too young to know if you are or are not. I thought so to when I was your age and in your shoes. By contrast I now know I was dead wrong.

[Sadie]

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

Exactly. Sadie and Ruth you should think long and hard about this statement while you have a chance. Don't be arrogant and assume that you are somehow more special than the rest of us who have been in your shoes. I was and I did exactly what Jose is warning you against. I wasted what should have been the best years of my life on NOTHING.

 

Here's a challenge. If the truth of your beliefs is real then it will withstand any tests you put it to. Go out and read the other side of the story. Check out Dan Barker's book, read Sagan, read the resources on this website. Challenge your beliefs. If they are true then they will make it through and will be stronger in the end for the testing you put them through. If not, then you will find yourself free to go out and LIVE YOUR LIVES. I really wish someone had challenged me like this when I was your ages.

 

I am having the most awesome time of my life.

 

Frankly you are too young to know if you are or are not. I thought so to when I was your age and in your shoes. By contrast I now know I was dead wrong.

 

Ok I'll check out the link, I dont have a problem with that. My faith HAS been tested and challenged before with things like this. It's not new to me. but I'll check it out and see about getting the book.

[Open_Minded]

I mean, seriously... go try and get in someone's pants! Go try smoking pot, or huffing freon, or try your first cigarette, or scam a few shots from your dad's liquor cabinet, or something! Go buy a CD for the sole purpose of shocking your parents. Go skip school and hang out at a head shop all day talking to hippies.

 

Any (or even all) of those things are less dangerous than prolonged exposure to Christianity!

 

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

Jose....

 

I understand your concern, I really do. I've got a few teens in my own life that I'm trying to help walk away from fundamentalist Christianity. But, I'm also a parent, so.... I'm going to go into parent mode here

 

Somewhere between totally giving up their young years - getting caught up in the stench of literalist Christianity and "smoking pot, huffing freon, trying cigarettes, or scamming a few shots from their parent's liquor cabinet" has to be a happy medium - don't you think

 

But, Sadie and Ruth, Jose is right. You're young, you should be enjoying life for all it's worth. You shouldn't be allowing yourself to get caught up in a cult that instills fear of life rather than joy of life.

 

This is really, really, important. Life should not be full of fear, fear for yourself or others. It is possible to have a spiritual life, to believe in God, to believe in a life beyond this life without all the crap that goes with believing in hell and damnation. You really should explore other possibilities.

 

If God is really Love, then hell doesn't exist. Ask people on this board about other spiritual paths they've taken. They will be honest with you. They'll point you to websites and books where you can study these things on your own. Fundamentalism and an angry vengeful God who would consign people to hell is not the only spiritual option. These people know what they are talking about, they've walked in your shoes.... so do listen to them... except for "smoking pot, huffing freon, trying cigarettes..." stuff. (Sorry Jose - as I said I am a parent - and I couldn't help myself )

[Checkmate]

 

O_M, you are making it REALLY difficult for me to NOT like you! You're all right. Cheers!