Christian: Convert me if you think you can.

[Open_Minded]

O_M, you are making it REALLY difficult for me to NOT like you! You're all right. Cheers!

 

Hey... Thanks Mr. Grinch As you know, I've liked you from the beginning, you really do make me laugh.

 

Cheers as well

[Antlerman]

Is it really a sacrifice to throw away that bycicle?

Is it really a sacrifice for a christian to throw away a defective, faulty, sometimes painful and cruel life, in exchange for, well, an eternal life in heaven where everything is Perfect with a capital P?

Why do I keep using metaphors these days? Is it something I'm eating?

Did I put the Y in bycicle in the right place?

 

Questions, questions...

You raise an interesting question. If Christians really believed in their heart of hearts that streets of gold in paradise are their reward, why aren't they offing themselves left and right? I suppose you could say because someone put for a doctrine from somewhere (?) that killing yourself is a straight shot to hell, but that would do nothing to stop people from desiring death. People with death wishes live in such a way they subconsciously are always putting themselves at great risk, falling down stairs all the time, etc. So then I would suspect that Christians really aren't all that desirous of heaven and hate this mortal flesh as the bible commands. Otherwise at least, you would see a greater incidence of hospitalizations from repeatedly having "accidents."

 

Just a thought before coffee.

[Jose]

Somewhere between totally giving up their young years - getting caught up in the stench of literalist Christianity and "smoking pot, huffing freon, trying cigarettes, or scamming a few shots from their parent's liquor cabinet" has to be a happy medium - don't you think

 

Well, of course there is... I was trying to illustrate my point.

 

The Disclaimer

 

I do not condone the use of freon, cigarettes, or alcohol. I believe alcohol is the most destructive drug known to man, nicotine is far too addictive a drug for very little payoff, and if you want a headache, there are easier ways to get one than draining your AC's freon resevoir... like hitting yourself in the forehead with a brick (which I suggest heartily for Christians... might knock some damn sense into you).

 

But I will go on record as saying that marijuana is about as dangerous as decaffinated coffee.

 

In fact, pot is probably less dangerous than decaf if you use cream and sugar in your coffee.

 

Okay, disclaimer over...

[Open_Minded]

and if you want a headache, there are easier ways to get one than draining your AC's freon resevoir... like hitting yourself in the forehead with a brick (which I suggest heartily for Christians... might knock some damn sense into you).

 

 

Thanks Jose

 

You have now joined Mr. Grinch.... you make me laugh as well

[Antlerman]

Exactly. Sadie and Ruth you should think long and hard about this statement while you have a chance. Don't be arrogant and assume that you are somehow more special than the rest of us who have been in your shoes. I was and I did exactly what Jose is warning you against. I wasted what should have been the best years of my life on NOTHING.

Just a thought to share. I look back on my years in fundamentalist Christianity and sometimes think I totally wasted that time for nothing. But the reality is that all those experiences good and bad make me who am I today. I would not have the insights I have now if I hadn't gone through that, but at the same time there are experiences I missed. Point is, what good does regrets do? It all goes into the pile of wisdom gained. It's the journey, not the destination that really counts.

 

Still need that coffee....

[Checkmate]

You raise an interesting question. If Christians really believed in their heart of hearts that streets of gold in paradise are their reward, why aren't they offing themselves left and right? I suppose you could say because someone put for a doctrine from somewhere (?) that killing yourself is a straight shot to hell, but that would do nothing to stop people from desiring death. People with death wishes live in such a way they subconsciously are always putting themselves at great risk, falling down stairs all the time, etc. So then I would suspect that Christians really aren't all that desirous of heaven and hate this mortal flesh as the bible commands. Otherwise at least, you would see a greater incidence of hospitalizations from repeatedly having "accidents."

 

Just a thought before coffee.

And a good thought it is. (Maybe one deserving it's own thread? We'll see.)

 

Why do Christians fear death? They SAY that they do not, but...

 

Christians PRAY against sickness and death. They CRY at Christian funerals. Why is this? Shouldn't they look forward to death? "To live is Christ, and to die is great gain," sayeth St. Paul.

 

I always found it funny in the book of Acts, this Christian woman, Dorcas dies, and her brethren were upset about it. So much so, that they petitioned Peter to resurrect her. Which Peter does. (cough...bullshit!...cough)

 

So many questions. WHY were they upset? Wasn't death a good thing? Why didn't THEY bring her back to life? Why did they need Peter? When she came back (bullshit), what did she have to say about Death and the Great Beyond? Was she pissed off at being brought back from "Abraham's Bosom"? For that matter, what about Lazurus? What about the so-called "dead saints" at the end of Matthew's gospel?

 

These, and many more questions DEMAND answers! (And I can't WAIT for some knothead to try it.)

[Alice]

The Disclaimer

 

I do not condone the use of freon, cigarettes, or alcohol. I believe alcohol is the most destructive drug known to man, nicotine is far too addictive a drug for very little payoff, and if you want a headache, there are easier ways to get one than draining your AC's freon resevoir... like hitting yourself in the forehead with a brick (which I suggest heartily for Christians... might knock some damn sense into you).

 

But I will go on record as saying that marijuana is about as dangerous as decaffinated coffee.

 

In fact, pot is probably less dangerous than decaf if you use cream and sugar in your coffee.

 

Okay, disclaimer over...

 

 

OK,

 

now I've got my parental head on as well -

 

Marijuana is about as dangerous as decaff - ONLY after the re myelinisation of the brain has taken place during adolesence - a process which may not finish until the early twenties. When used before this indicators are that it seriously raises the risk of mental illness.

 

Whilst further study is needed into alternative reasons for the increased risks (for example early use of dope may be more common where there are other life triggers for the onset of mental illness, however studies into the amazing changes that take place in the brain at this time suggest that this is a process not to confuddle with other substances)

 

When do you know if the remyelinisation has taken place?

 

The outward signs vary from teen to teen - I tell my sons - 'when you stop needing to sleep in till lunch time and start spontaneously tidying your room, not because you feel obliged to but because you want to'

 

I am part serious, part joking in this post. :wink:

 

 

 

Exactly. Sadie and Ruth you should think long and hard about this statement while you have a chance. Don't be arrogant and assume that you are somehow more special than the rest of us who have been in your shoes. I was and I did exactly what Jose is warning you against. I wasted what should have been the best years of my life on NOTHING.

Just a thought to share. I look back on my years in fundamentalist Christianity and sometimes think I totally wasted that time for nothing. But the reality is that all those experiences good and bad make me who am I today. I would not have the insights I have now if I hadn't gone through that, but at the same time there are experiences I missed. Point is, what good does regrets do? It all goes into the pile of wisdom gained. It's the journey, not the destination that really counts.

 

Still need that coffee....

 

I try and adopt that approach as well - although I have had these little moments of annoyance, more frustration with myself really - like Liz - how can you have been taken in by all this for so long you dimwit you - that kind of thing, but when I look at my life as a whole I think I wouldn't really change much at all.

 

My kids are begining to leave the nest - in many ways I'm glad we walked the fundamentalist path for a while when they were at home, I don't have to worry they'll fall for any of it whilst they are at uni. They are now well equipped from the inside to know how to stave off various approaches!

[NotBlinded]

Exactly. Sadie and Ruth you should think long and hard about this statement while you have a chance. Don't be arrogant and assume that you are somehow more special than the rest of us who have been in your shoes. I was and I did exactly what Jose is warning you against. I wasted what should have been the best years of my life on NOTHING.

Just a thought to share. I look back on my years in fundamentalist Christianity and sometimes think I totally wasted that time for nothing. But the reality is that all those experiences good and bad make me who am I today. I would not have the insights I have now if I hadn't gone through that, but at the same time there are experiences I missed. Point is, what good does regrets do? It all goes into the pile of wisdom gained. It's the journey, not the destination that really counts.

 

Still need that coffee....

You say the wisest things! Really, what is our destination in the long run other than the accumulation of journeys?

 

Marijuana is about as dangerous as decaff - ONLY after the re myelinisation of the brain has taken place during adolesence - a process which may not finish until the early twenties. When used before this indicators are that it seriously raises the risk of mental illness.

Oh, dang it! So that is what is wrong with me.

[Ssel]

I can't help but say that Ruth seems to show astounding maturity for her age.

[Jose]

I don't want to completely derail the thread, but light marijuana use has no measurable effect on brain development.

 

Moderate marijuana use can cause the small blood vessels in the brain to stiffen, increasing PI resistance and inhibiting myelin growth slightly.

 

Heavy marijuana use is just crazy, but yes, it has many detrimental effects on the brain.

 

The study I used for the above information lists the usage patterns as,

 

"Light marijuana users smoked 2 to 15 joints per week, moderate users smoked 17 to 70 joints per week, and heavy users smoked 78 to 350 joints per week."

 

I don't know anyone who smokes two whole joints a day and I know some serious burnouts.

 

I doubt seriously that either Sadie or Ruth will go from straight-laced Christians to smoking 12 joints a day.

 

For one thing, that's prohibitively expensive given that an ounce is running me about $200 right now (for the good stuff) and you can only get like 20 spliffs out of it. That would run $800 per week just for weed... never mind papers at $2.50 per pack of 20 (of which, I usually waste half).

 

Edit - Neat links that suggest that marijuana may help brain development.

 

 

 

I can't help but say that Ruth seems to show astounding maturity for her age.

 

That's because she's a 38 year old fat guy wearing a coffee-stained pair of boxers living in his mom's basement in Olathe, Kansas.

[Vigile]

 

Just a thought to share. I look back on my years in fundamentalist Christianity and sometimes think I totally wasted that time for nothing. But the reality is that all those experiences good and bad make me who am I today. I would not have the insights I have now if I hadn't gone through that, but at the same time there are experiences I missed. Point is, what good does regrets do? It all goes into the pile of wisdom gained. It's the journey, not the destination that really counts.

 

Still need that coffee....

 

I agree with you to a point. On the other hand, my stupid rationalization that the rapture could occur any day now caused me to put off school and other ambitions until later in life. There are other directions I could have/would have gone without these stupid ideas and idealisms in my head. Also the twisted views on sex pretty much warped me during my awakening stages and I have issues to deal with there to this day. I have confidence that my intelligence and inner ambition would have led me to interesting places regardless. I have no illusions that I am now superior to what I could be without my youthful experiences.

 

You raise an interesting question. If Christians really believed in their heart of hearts that streets of gold in paradise are their reward, why aren't they offing themselves left and right? I suppose you could say because someone put for a doctrine from somewhere (?) that killing yourself is a straight shot to hell, but that would do nothing to stop people from desiring death. People with death wishes live in such a way they subconsciously are always putting themselves at great risk, falling down stairs all the time, etc. So then I would suspect that Christians really aren't all that desirous of heaven and hate this mortal flesh as the bible commands. Otherwise at least, you would see a greater incidence of hospitalizations from repeatedly having "accidents."

 

Just a thought before coffee.

 

My grandfather, who no christian who comes to this board would deny was a god fearing, faithful and kind christian man (seriously, he is one of the greatest men I have known, or even read of for that matter, and a beautiful example of the ideal of christian love and kindness), fought off death tooth and nail for 20 years. In the end medical science kept him alive from his sheer will and because he could afford the best it had to offer and he suffered dearly for it during the last two or three years of his life. Why did he do that if he had a great reward?

[Ssel]

That's because she's a 38 year old fat guy wearing a coffee-stained pair of boxers living in his mom's basement in Olathe, Kansas.

And just what in the hell makes you so certain that's COFFEE?

 

{{never ending presumptions...sigh}}

 

Why did he do that if he had a great reward?

Because the proposed reward comes from trying, not dying.

[Vigile]

I can't help but say that Ruth seems to show astounding maturity for her age.

 

Hey SSEL, something we can agree on

[Sadie]

I mean, seriously... go try and get in someone's pants! Go try smoking pot, or huffing freon, or try your first cigarette, or scam a few shots from your dad's liquor cabinet, or something! Go buy a CD for the sole purpose of shocking your parents. Go skip school and hang out at a head shop all day talking to hippies.

 

Any (or even all) of those things are less dangerous than prolonged exposure to Christianity!

 

Young Christians are taking what should be the most awesome time in their lives and turning it into a future bad memory that they'll one day have to share with others on a site like this one.

 

Jose....

 

I understand your concern, I really do. I've got a few teens in my own life that I'm trying to help walk away from fundamentalist Christianity. But, I'm also a parent, so.... I'm going to go into parent mode here

 

Somewhere between totally giving up their young years - getting caught up in the stench of literalist Christianity and "smoking pot, huffing freon, trying cigarettes, or scamming a few shots from their parent's liquor cabinet" has to be a happy medium - don't you think

 

But, Sadie and Ruth, Jose is right. You're young, you should be enjoying life for all it's worth. You shouldn't be allowing yourself to get caught up in a cult that instills fear of life rather than joy of life.

 

This is really, really, important. Life should not be full of fear, fear for yourself or others. It is possible to have a spiritual life, to believe in God, to believe in a life beyond this life without all the crap that goes with believing in hell and damnation. You really should explore other possibilities.

 

If God is really Love, then hell doesn't exist. Ask people on this board about other spiritual paths they've taken. They will be honest with you. They'll point you to websites and books where you can study these things on your own. Fundamentalism and an angry vengeful God who would consign people to hell is not the only spiritual option. These people know what they are talking about, they've walked in your shoes.... so do listen to them... except for "smoking pot, huffing freon, trying cigarettes..." stuff. (Sorry Jose - as I said I am a parent - and I couldn't help myself )

 

Thanks for the motherly post. And I honestly do appreciate it. but I don't fear life at all. I'm not full of fear and I do enjoy life. I have friends, I enjoy fun, I have a beer every once and awhile, I enjoy life. I just do thinks differently that's all. Doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it.

 

 

You raise an interesting question. If Christians really believed in their heart of hearts that streets of gold in paradise are their reward, why aren't they offing themselves left and right? I suppose you could say because someone put for a doctrine from somewhere (?) that killing yourself is a straight shot to hell, but that would do nothing to stop people from desiring death. People with death wishes live in such a way they subconsciously are always putting themselves at great risk, falling down stairs all the time, etc. So then I would suspect that Christians really aren't all that desirous of heaven and hate this mortal flesh as the bible commands. Otherwise at least, you would see a greater incidence of hospitalizations from repeatedly having "accidents."

 

Just a thought before coffee.

 

We are still human. Just because we believe in heaven doesn't mean we don't fear death. Or the process of dying. I mean common. Does getting shot sound like it would feel good or be appealing. eh no. We still have emotions and feelings and I do'nt feel like being shot or falling down the stairs.

 

 

And a good thought it is. (Maybe one deserving it's own thread? We'll see.)

 

Why do Christians fear death? They SAY that they do not, but...

 

Christians PRAY against sickness and death. They CRY at Christian funerals. Why is this? Shouldn't they look forward to death? "To live is Christ, and to die is great gain," sayeth St. Paul.

 

 

As I said we are still human. I look foward to what is AFTER death I don't necessarily look foward to death itself.

[Antlerman]

We are still human. Just because we believe in heaven doesn't mean we don't fear death. Or the process of dying. I mean common. Does getting shot sound like it would feel good or be appealing. eh no. We still have emotions and feelings and I do'nt feel like being shot or falling down the stairs.

Do you find the idea of heaven a motivator of any kind in you following Christian beliefs? If so, to what degree, maybe on a scale of 1 to 10? In otherwords, even if all you had was here and now, and when you die, you die and it's all over, would you still follow Christian beliefs?

[SkepticOfBible]

As I said we are still human. I look foward to what is AFTER death I don't necessarily look foward to death itself.

 

Well, according to your world view, the jews who died in the Nazi holocaust are right now burning in hell which is far more worse than the one they endured in Nazi Concentration camps.

[Sadie]

We are still human. Just because we believe in heaven doesn't mean we don't fear death. Or the process of dying. I mean common. Does getting shot sound like it would feel good or be appealing. eh no. We still have emotions and feelings and I do'nt feel like being shot or falling down the stairs.

Do you find the idea of heaven a motivator of any kind in you following Christian beliefs? If so, to what degree, maybe on a scale of 1 to 10? In otherwords, even if all you had was here and now, and when you die, you die and it's all over, would you still follow Christian beliefs?

 

Actually no I don't find the idea of heaven a motivator. Not that I'm not "looking foward" to it but truthfully I don't think about heaven but once in a big while. So ya if all I had was here and now I would still follow Christian beliefs. I live for today. Not that the future isn't important but today is all I may have. I could walk out side tomorrow and get hit by a semi. I don't know, so I try to live my life to it's fullest today and not worry to much about what tomorrow could bring, whether it's heaven or another day to live. Get what I'm saying?

 

As I said we are still human. I look foward to what is AFTER death I don't necessarily look foward to death itself.

 

Well, according to your world view, the jews who died in the Nazi holocaust are right now burning in hell which is far more worse than the one they endured in Nazi Concentration camps.

 

How so, I'm confused.

[SkepticOfBible]

Well, according to your world view, the jews who died in the Nazi holocaust are right now burning in hell which is far more worse than the one they endured in Nazi Concentration camps.

 

How so, I'm confused.

 

Well doesn't the bible say "those who disbelieve in Jesus, are damned and will goto hell". Isn't accepting Jesus christ the only way to save yourself from Hell?

 

That is the punishment for the "sin" of disbelief right?

[Sadie]

Well, according to your world view, the jews who died in the Nazi holocaust are right now burning in hell which is far more worse than the one they endured in Nazi Concentration camps.

 

How so, I'm confused.

 

Well doesn't the bible say "those who disbelieve in Jesus, are damned and will goto hell". Isn't accepting Jesus christ the only way to save yourself from Hell?

 

That is the punishment for the "sin" of disbelief right?

 

I know many Jews who stay with their "jewish faith" but believe in Christ. I don't think the scripture is worded that way. I'm not sure, truth be told.

[SkepticOfBible]

I know many Jews who stay with their "jewish faith" but believe in Christ.

I hope you are talking about the Messianic Jews. You do know that is a baptist funded movement.

 

And besides I am talking about the Holocaust effected Jews who rejected christ.

 

I don't think the scripture is worded that way. I'm not sure, truth be told.

 

Ironically there is a guy on this forum who just reconverted back to christianity. Check out his blog on hell.

 

http://www.restoringfaithinjesus.com/

 

As far as scripture goes, I think it is pretty clear about (just like the way it gives other absolutes)

 

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

 

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (Gee Now I know wher President Bush gets his speech from )

 

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

Jesus in his glorified Final Solution, will send out his army of drones to cleanse the world of anything that Jesus deems or defines as "wicked".

Naturally, unbelievers will be exterminated along with all the other unworthy human "weeds".

 

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares(weeds) are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Heb 2:3

How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him

 

 

By the way I got that John Verse from the Chick Tract. It is pretty cheesy

 

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

 

According to the Protestant Christian World view everybody is a sinner(including Jews), and punishment for Sinner is hell.

 

http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-1.htm#_1_1

http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-2.htm#_1_15

 

Christians love to say "No amount of good work will save you from Hell. Only faith in Jesus can. "

 

 

According to Protestant Christians hell is the wrath of god

 

Realities of Hell

 

I believe according to the protestant world view even Catholics are going to hell cause they believe in false doctrines. But off course according to christians we send ourselves to hell not god

[Asuryan]

We are still human. Just because we believe in heaven doesn't mean we don't fear death. Or the process of dying. I mean common. Does getting shot sound like it would feel good or be appealing. eh no. We still have emotions and feelings and I do'nt feel like being shot or falling down the stairs.

 

Well... from these sentences, it seems that what you really fear is not death (since you don't really *die*, after all, for you it is just a transition to another state of existence), but physical pain. The process of dying in a violent way is painful, that could explain why christians don't want to go into the world and risk their lives converting people in countries which execute missionaries. They don't really fear dying for jesus, they fear suffering physically for jesus. Could that be?

I say this because I had the feeling that christians don't fear dying of old age, peacefully, in one's own bed, but they do fear dying in whatever way could be painful.

Just an hypotesis.

[Alice]

I've never had a problem with christians not wanting to die prematurely. Its not something as I see as an indicator that they have a poor faith or don't really believe what their religion teaches at all.

 

My approach to the thought of impending death has remained pretty constant with or without a belief in an after life and it is exactly the transition that I don't relish!

 

My experience of sorrow at Christian funerals has also been that it is completely understandable within their belief system as well. Knowing that it will be decades before you are likely to 'see' that person again is certainly a source of sorrow on parting even if you think you'll be reunited at some stage in the future.

 

And of course it all depends on your understanding of heaven as well. As a christian I was taught that I would 'only have eyes for God' and that my whole being would be consumed in an act of eternal worship so that I would not recognise anyother soul and they would all be just as 'caught up' in worship as I would be.

 

Other christians see heaven as a golden city in the sky and think its all going to be bank holiday picnics and regattas so they did draw comfort from the idea they would 'one day be together with their loved ones'. None of which stops their immediate loneliness and sorrow at not having their dearly departed with them in the here and now.

 

If heaven is for an eternity but life on earth is but for a limited time, and life on earth is good, I can fully understand why few christians rush towards death. I mean whenever you get to heaven, it is going to last for an eternity - not exactly a length of time you are likely to regret missing out on some?

 

I was also taught that time stops at death, for the dead - until it restarts at Judgement Day when it converges with earth time and we all get to go to heaven and hell at the same time. (So there is no way to get in early and nab the best spot by dying early!)

 

Which looking back is as bizarre as anything else - not sure where all that teaching came from - it always seemed to be extrapolated from the Bible but I guess is at odds with lots of other 'christian' beliefs about the afterlife also supposedly drawn from the Bible!

[Asuryan]

My experience of sorrow at Christian funerals has also been that it is completely understandable within their belief system as well. Knowing that it will be decades before you are likely to 'see' that person again is certainly a source of sorrow on parting even if you think you'll be reunited at some stage in the future.

 

Hmm...

I'm not sure about that.

It happens that sometimes, a close relative or friend has to move abroad for work reasons or something like that. There are people that don't have a clue about how email works, long-distance calls are expensive and flying to visit is even more expensive.

But the sorrow, cries and desperation I witness at usual christian funerals, at least here, has nothing to do with the tears on the faces of friends or relatives that have to part for the goddess knows how many years, maybe for the rest of their lives.

At funerals, crying people seem to me to cry in despair.I've heard christians whisper, amidst the tears, "I'll never see him again". And it is Never, not In Heaven.

While I, as an atheist, in such a situation, with a close friend going abroad, could say "I could never see him again" and thus be desperate, christians can't say such a thing. They simply know that they will meet their close relatives and friends and such after death.... unless those relatives and friends are not christian protestants, in that case they'll burn in hell forever, never to be seen again. Right?

[Alice]

My experience of sorrow at Christian funerals has also been that it is completely understandable within their belief system as well. Knowing that it will be decades before you are likely to 'see' that person again is certainly a source of sorrow on parting even if you think you'll be reunited at some stage in the future.

 

Hmm...

I'm not sure about that.

It happens that sometimes, a close relative or friend has to move abroad for work reasons or something like that. There are people that don't have a clue about how email works, long-distance calls are expensive and flying to visit is even more expensive.

But the sorrow, cries and desperation I witness at usual christian funerals, at least here, has nothing to do with the tears on the faces of friends or relatives that have to part for the goddess knows how many years, maybe for the rest of their lives.

At funerals, crying people seem to me to cry in despair.I've heard christians whisper, amidst the tears, "I'll never see him again". And it is Never, not In Heaven.

While I, as an atheist, in such a situation, with a close friend going abroad, could say "I could never see him again" and thus be desperate, christians can't say such a thing. They simply know that they will meet their close relatives and friends and such after death.... unless those relatives and friends are not christian protestants, in that case they'll burn in hell forever, never to be seen again. Right?

 

I haven't ever had the same experience as you at a christian funeral - I was always conscious that there was a level of 'hope and joy' through the bitter sting of current tears at parting in the immediate term. I have gone to funerals of non believers where that atmosphere of hope nand joy was still present (behind the sorrow) but worded in terms of gratitude for a life lived full of love and hope in terms of knowing the memory of that person will live on and so forth. I've gone to the funerals of non believers where that attitude was of sorrow and despair. I've never expereinced this at a christian funeral, so who knows - it seems it varies. Maybe it has more to do with any given groups ability to feel hope in sorrow, or not - irrespective of the other beliefs in their system.

 

I have never known an earthly parting where I know for sure that I will not see or hear from someone I love for decades to come - will have no means of contacting them or receiveing news from them, but they will be alive someplace and we will be reunited at the end of my earthly life.

 

If I really truly believed that I would not see them, hear anything from them for the next thirty or forty years, and they were people I had anticiapted sharing my life's journey with - I would be just as full of sorrow at the parting as if they had died. (Which is somewhat different to having a friend on the other side of the world who is an infrequent correspondent)

 

I think choice comes into it somewhere there too - If a loved one chooses to be away from you - you have to let them go. Death is rarely a choice. (Look sweetheart - there is this thing I've really got to do - its called dying and it'll mean I'm away for the next thirty years, I'll play no part in your life whatever from now on until you die as well - no occasional costly phone calls, no reports back, no emails, no visits. Just silence, but don't be sad - we'll get together again in thirty years or so ...)

 

I can fully relate, however to what you say about the fear factor at funerals where the greiving are chrsitian and the departed a non believer.

[Sadie]

My experience of sorrow at Christian funerals has also been that it is completely understandable within their belief system as well. Knowing that it will be decades before you are likely to 'see' that person again is certainly a source of sorrow on parting even if you think you'll be reunited at some stage in the future.

 

Hmm...

I'm not sure about that.

It happens that sometimes, a close relative or friend has to move abroad for work reasons or something like that. There are people that don't have a clue about how email works, long-distance calls are expensive and flying to visit is even more expensive.

But the sorrow, cries and desperation I witness at usual christian funerals, at least here, has nothing to do with the tears on the faces of friends or relatives that have to part for the goddess knows how many years, maybe for the rest of their lives.

At funerals, crying people seem to me to cry in despair.I've heard christians whisper, amidst the tears, "I'll never see him again". And it is Never, not In Heaven.

While I, as an atheist, in such a situation, with a close friend going abroad, could say "I could never see him again" and thus be desperate, christians can't say such a thing. They simply know that they will meet their close relatives and friends and such after death.... unless those relatives and friends are not christian protestants, in that case they'll burn in hell forever, never to be seen again. Right?

 

Hey just because we "know" we may see them again doesn't mean we don't miss them being here with us when they die. We still have emotions. We arent drones or robots.