God's "message" to humans?

[Ssel]

Can we say "conspiracy theory"?

If by "conspiracy, you mean that a group of people intentionally try to manipulate others to gain votes or gain control over something, then yes.

 

Call it whatever you like. But to deny that people conspire against others is serious blindness.

 

Not to mention that the Christians are constantly accused of such. Do only religions conspire? All other people are saintly and pure?

[crazy-tiger]

No, I mean Conspiracy Theory... since that is what your "argument" is.

 

 

On this subject, have you ever heard of the term "Conspiracism"?

 

link...

The conspiracist worldview sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering important historical events; makes irrational leaps of logic in analyzing factual evidence in order to "prove" connections, blames social conflicts on demonized scapegoats, and constructs a closed metaphysical worldview that is highly resistant to criticism.

[Ssel]

On this subject, have you ever heard of the term "Conspiracism"?

No, actually I hadn't, but it doesn't surpize me at all. When you want to hide something, do as the English did, declare the speaker to be a particular named type of insane, then lock him up for his own good. (If you need guidance in how to do this, ask Troy )

 

The conspiracist worldview sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering important historical events; makes irrational leaps of logic in analyzing factual evidence in order to "prove" connections, blames social conflicts on demonized scapegoats, and constructs a closed metaphysical worldview that is highly resistant to criticism.

This has 2 problems though...

 

1) You accuse the Christians of all of that except for the metaphors

2) In this case, the metaphors are the explanation which breaks the conspiracy theory that they were all merely lying to manipulate.

 

The discussion was not about conspiracy or not conspiracy. It was which type of conspiracy. A simple case of lying, or a more complex case of telling the truth in a shifty way.

 

I am merely explaining that there is a "shifty way" to be seen. And the only problem is that such formulae are still being used, after all, "they are perfect and eternal"

 

If they were not still being used, then fine, just ignore it all.

[Mythra]

I've read about 30 of Ssel's posts. And I still don't have a freaking clue what his gig is. Other than the fact that he has some personal revelation about the bible and god and hell, and that no one else (neither the christians nor the scoffers) gets it.

 

I mean, Amanda also believes that the bible holds deeper, symbolic meanings. But at least when she posts something, you have some idea what she's trying to say. And, she doesn't put on this air that she's some spiritual genius.

[Ssel]

Myrtha, quite sincerely, I apologize for that apparent effect.

 

If it was just you and I talking about this stuff, then I would be able to detect which thoughts you already understand and I could relate what I was trying to convey to those.

 

But without questions and especially when many people are reading something, I get lost as to who will understand which parts, which words will be misleading to whom, and what set of words would be most meaningful for the collection.

 

Very few feel free to openly say "Ok, I get that part, but what about this part...?"

 

On top of this, I am stuck trying to explain something that this particular group doesn't really want to accept.

 

No matter where the discussion begins, it ends up being "Ssel, your just an self proclaimed dillusional asshole."

 

I don't disagree with much of what is said against the virtues of the Christians. But it is presented as something black or white. And this leads to serious problems. The Christians are not simply right or wrong. It is a complicated issue.

[crazy-tiger]

On this subject, have you ever heard of the term "Conspiracism"?

No, actually I hadn't, but it doesn't surpize me at all. When you want to hide something, do as the English did, declare the speaker to be a particular named type of insane, then lock him up for his own good. (If you need guidance in how to do this, ask Troy )

Careful... we wouldn't want you to be denigrating an entire nation of people...

The conspiracist worldview sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering important historical events; makes irrational leaps of logic in analyzing factual evidence in order to "prove" connections, blames social conflicts on demonized scapegoats, and constructs a closed metaphysical worldview that is highly resistant to criticism.

This has 2 problems though...

 

1) You accuse the Christians of all of that except for the metaphors

2) In this case, the metaphors are the explanation which breaks the conspiracy theory that they were all merely lying to manipulate.

You mis-understand me... it's an incredibly accurate discription of you.

The discussion was not about conspiracy or not conspiracy. It was which type of conspiracy. A simple case of lying, or a more complex case of telling the truth in a shifty way.

 

I am merely explaining that there is a "shifty way" to be seen.

Oh yes, it's "possible" that it's the truth in a shifty way... but since it was based on lies, fraud and terror, you would need to make some irrational leaps of logic to come to that conclusion.

And the only problem is that such formulae are still being used, after all, "they are perfect and eternal"

 

If they were not still being used, then fine, just ignore it all.

Sorry, but the formulae you speak of, the ones you are trying desperately to show were used in a conspiracy to muddy the truth, weren't being used in the first place.

[Mythra]

Okay Ssel. Apology definitely accepted. But, it's nice to see your humanity for a second.

 

Some of the problem is definitely with me. I've never studied philosophy or debating or any of that, and I when I find posts that get too deep, I just skim through them, cause I wouldn't understand what was being said even if I dwelled there. Don't feel too bad. Antlerman leaves me in the dust on occasion as well.

 

I'm just an average guy with an average IQ.

 

So, can we talk on an average guy level for a minute? I have one question. How do your beliefs about Jesus Christ differ from the conventional orthodox christian view of him? Did your beliefs begin as traditional christian and then morph into your current views? Or - how did you come to see God in the light that you currently do?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Mythra

So, can we talk on an average guy level for a minute? I have one question. How do your beliefs about Jesus Christ differ from the conventional orthodox christian view of him? Did your beliefs begin as traditional christian and then morph into your current views? Or - how did you come to see God in the light that you currently do?

Good question Mythra. I am curious about this myself.

[Ssel]

How do your beliefs about Jesus Christ differ from the conventional orthodox christian view of him? Did your beliefs begin as traditional christian and then morph into your current views? Or - how did you come to see God in the light that you currently do?

I have explained this before, but..

 

I am Hebrew, although raised in Texas, I was not raised Christian.

 

I was raised to be a specific type of intellectual involved in serious analysis of concepts and logical constructions. I spent time in Israel examining world wide intelligence systems used by a variety of countries, not all friendly to the US.

 

I witnessed many things that you wouldn't even dare have nightmares about.

 

I had begun to examine this "Bible" thing after I saw how much of the world was being effected by it. With some study and with what I was already familiar with concerning intelligence, I could see what the confusion was all about.

 

Later, I spent time running through each of the major religions to see exactly what they were right about more than what they might be wrong about.

 

I found myself being able to see how every one of them was related to exactly how the mind works and how right many of the religions are about many dynamic principles of behavior.

 

I found none that I saw as totally perfect, although Jesus himself displays very serious understanding of the entire picture.

 

I continued wondering if there wasn't a "better way" to fix all of this mess. I eventually found one that conforms to all that had been preached as holy but went further to correct for the missing parts.

 

But just because I found something, doesn't mean that I can go do it. That would be like someone seeing how a roof could be shaped better, but not having the money or recourses to actually prove the theory except on paper.

 

I am legally constricted to identifying myself for very serious reasons thus I never do online nor do I speak of too many things that would bring serious trouble.

 

I never give my real name to anyone for any reason, but I can tell you, in Israel, My name began with "Rabbi..."

 

So when it comes to all of these "Ssel is a Jew hater" remarks. I suggest that you think again as to what right I might have to hate them and MY family if I so choose (which I don't)

 

As I have said many times, you are seeing emotion that isn't there and making serious presumptions that do not apply.

 

Is there even one Ex-Christian priest among you?

[DanInPA]

If it was just you and I talking about this stuff, then I would be able to detect which thoughts you already understand and I could relate what I was trying to convey to those.

 

But without questions and especially when many people are reading something, I get lost as to who will understand which parts, which words will be misleading to whom, and what set of words would be most meaningful for the collection.

 

Many have posed serious and relevant questions, and you have either ignored them or dismissed them as "emotionalist".

Humans are emotional beings, and if a god/higher being does not understand this and act accordingly, then it does not merit our attention.

 

 

 

Very few feel free to openly say "Ok, I get that part, but what about this part...?"

 

From what I've read, many have said just that.

 

On top of this, I am stuck trying to explain something that this particular group doesn't really want to accept.

 

This group is probably more inclined to listen to your ideas than any that I know of. You are not communicating effectively. If you really mean that, why are you still here?

 

No matter where the discussion begins, it ends up being "Ssel, your just an self proclaimed dillusional asshole."

 

Not always, but sometimes you do come off that way.

 

I don't disagree with much of what is said against the virtues of the Christians. But it is presented as something black or white. And this leads to serious problems. The Christians are not simply right or wrong. It is a complicated issue.

 

So why not clearly and explicitly tell us what you have to say. You've been here for awhile, yet none of us can understand exactly what you're trying to explain. If you were able to express yourself clearly, I'd think someone here would have gotten it by now. If you have some better way of understanding religion, or science, or reality, or whatever, you certainly seem to lack the ability to communicate it to your fellow humans.

 

No disrespect intended, but I (and many others) am just not understanding what exactly you're trying to tell us. And since it's been this way all along, I must assume that either your message is faulty, or your method of communicating said message is faulty.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh, just trying to show you where at least some of us are coming from.

 

Dan

[Ssel]

Many have posed serious and relevant questions, and you have either ignored them or dismissed them as "emotionalist".

Huh??

I am not aware of any that I have ignored. I thought that I addressed far too many if anything. Who have I ignored? When someone says that they have no respect or regard for my opinions, then I assume they don't expect any reply, but is that what you talking about?

 

Humans are emotional beings, and if a god/higher being does not understand this and act accordingly, then it does not merit our attention.

What does this have to do with me??

 

I must assume that either your message is faulty, or your method of communicating said message is faulty.

Are we back to me being here just to deliver some message to Mankind?? Is this a requirement that I missed somewhere?

 

I explained that IF you choose to avoid emotionalism and get serious about real logic and thinking, THEN you actually have an opportunity to grow higher than any religion or science has and do something that the world has never seen. But I did NOT say that I am here just to talk you into trying such. I get picky about true thinking and not skewing your thoughts by emotion simply because that is needed if you really want to clear up a LOT of things and go on to even higher goals.

 

But if you wish to just sit back and enjoy your ritas and beer, then that's fine too.

 

 

How do your beliefs about Jesus Christ differ from the conventional orthodox christian view of him? Did your beliefs begin as traditional christian and then morph into your current views? Or - how did you come to see God in the light that you currently do?

Have I answered this?

 

 

 

This post is a very, very short lead into what I have been referring to as that "new idea". PLEASE realize that it is merely a very short introduction and not at all the complete idea nor even most of the complete idea.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=124253

[Vigile]

Believe? I don't know. I know they exist. Whether their applications are always accurate I do not know.

 

Social sciences are inexact, but from what I've read of SSEL's posts he has a fairly weak grasp of understanding on both the methods of research and the findings from the two fields in question.

[SkepticOfBible]

But in addition the gospel of Jesus is far simplier. Jesus doesn't make complex laws, he makes it easy to DO.

 

You mean laws such as prohibition of remarriage, self mutilation and the one where one abandons one's family to serve a cult leader.

 

That's right, real simple

[Asuryan]

 

I witnessed many things that you wouldn't even dare have nightmares about.

 

Thoughts about this sentence:

 

1) Sounds like something out of Blade Runner's ending...

2) "I, and at least another person on these boards, have experienced things that you wouldn't even dare have nightmares about", would be my only answer to you if I only was as arrogant as you are, and if I presumed to know what's there in your nightmares, which I don't know.

3) What do you know of what we've experienced or witnessed or even about our nightmares?Who do you think you are, to say with such confidence that your experiences are automatically so much more intense, thought-provoking and painful than ours? You don't know a thing about our lives and our past, yet you are so SURE that what you've witnessed is so much worse than our worst nightmares... You should be ashamed of yourself. Don't you understand that you're talking with human beings here, and not with inferiors? At this point, I don't care shit about your magnificent revelation, since every time you open your mouth you resemble a cross between a peacock and some distorted kind of Dalai Lama.

4)

5) I wonder what Cerise would say about that sentence, too.

6) A great man once said to you: "you are disrespectful, uncompassionate, arrogant, and now I will add most likely suffering from delusional grandeur (perhaps even clinically), with a possible messiah/persecution complex". Seeing as if you are now claiming you can read other people's minds, past, thoughts and nightmares, you are just confirming his claim.

 

 

 

 

Believe? I don't know. I know they exist. Whether their applications are always accurate I do not know.

 

I don't know about political science. But psychology nowadays follows the scientific method, and the experimental results are published on specialized papers, allowing everyone to try and replicate the experiments and researchs presented. It's not a speculative discipline as many people believe, nor a mere philosophical exercise.

So I guess that, like it is with science, there is no absolute truth, but the laws and theories that are formulated and verified will be increasingly more and more accurate. The more the experiments, the more accurate the theories and conclusions.

[Amethyst]

Just because people like myself do not want to accept, doesn't mean that we don't want to know why you believe the way you do. You at the same time should understand that your beliefs will be challenged in the process.

 

Right. Most of us here already made the same mistake of blindly accepting another person's beliefs. Since we have now learned from the mistakes we made, we are not going to just blindly accept some other belief system and put it in place of our old one. Certainly not without scientific evidence that the other belief system holds water, so to say.

 

If you have indisputable proof that there is a god, then share it. If it holds up under serious scrutiny as any "truth" should, then maybe we'll consider it. If not, you'll be just one person in a long line of people who thought they had the Ultimate Truth , but really didn't.

[Mythra]

Thanks for rehashing your background info, Ssel. I hadn't run across it before.

 

I don't guess that anyone here will accuse you of being ordinary. You're certainly an interesting character, and obviously intelligent - in a unibomber sorta way.

 

But, as Amethyst said - most of us here have learned the hard way to not take what anyone says at face value. Call us gullible-no-more.

[Antlerman]

I was raised to be a specific type of intellectual involved in serious analysis of concepts and logical constructions. I spent time in Israel examining world wide intelligence systems used by a variety of countries, not all friendly to the US.

 

I witnessed many things that you wouldn't even dare have nightmares about.

 

I had begun to examine this "Bible" thing after I saw how much of the world was being effected by it. With some study and with what I was already familiar with concerning intelligence, I could see what the confusion was all about.

 

Later, I spent time running through each of the major religions to see exactly what they were right about more than what they might be wrong about.

 

I found myself being able to see how every one of them was related to exactly how the mind works and how right many of the religions are about many dynamic principles of behavior.

 

I found none that I saw as totally perfect, although Jesus himself displays very serious understanding of the entire picture.

 

I continued wondering if there wasn't a "better way" to fix all of this mess. I eventually found one that conforms to all that had been preached as holy but went further to correct for the missing parts.

 

But just because I found something, doesn't mean that I can go do it. That would be like someone seeing how a roof could be shaped better, but not having the money or recourses to actually prove the theory except on paper.

 

I am legally constricted to identifying myself for very serious reasons thus I never do online nor do I speak of too many things that would bring serious trouble.

 

I never give my real name to anyone for any reason, but I can tell you, in Israel, My name began with "Rabbi..."

<snip>

Is there even one Ex-Christian priest among you?

I'm breaking my promise of ignoring this user to confirm my suspicion and share it with others. It is my strong conviction that this individual is mentally ill. I have had exposure to the mentally ill and the above along with the patterns displayed throughout all the posts show a delusional individual with paranoid tendencies, possibly clinically schizophrenic. A word of advice to posters in the community: be careful not to make the mistake that high intelligence makes someone immune from mental illness.

 

The pupose of this is not to condemn, but to help put things into a more meaningful context.

[NotBlinded]

I'm breaking my promise of ignoring this user to confirm my suspicion and share it with others. It is my strong conviction that this individual is mentally ill. I have had exposure to the mentally ill and the above along with the patterns displayed throughout all the posts show a delusional individual with paranoid tendencies, possibly clinically schizophrenic. A word of advice to posters in the community: be careful not to make the mistake that high intelligence makes someone immune from mental illness.

 

The pupose of this is not to condemn, but to help put things into a more meaningful context.

With all respect Antlerman, even if Ssel is mentally ill that says nothing about his capability to be correct in what he is saying.

 

Have you ever heard of Nobel Prize winner in economics John Nash? There is a biography about him called "A Beautiful Mind." His wife had him commited and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He suffered 30 years of delusions.

 

Don't miss what he is saying based on a stigma.

 

I just don't like the connection that you make here when you say that high intelligence doesn't make someone immune to mental illness. It appears that you might be saying that mental illness negates everything he says. I could be wrong though.

 

You know I respect you and find great meaning in what you post so please don't take this the wrong way, I just felt I had to say something and it could be me that is reading something into your post that was not meant by you. If so, I apologize.

[Ssel]

Ha ha, in the '60's I'd have to say "sometimes you guys are a trip"

 

Here, since you seem to insist on a "message from above"

 

The Bible is a book concerning spiritual things. The language of metaphor is a langange which requires the mind to think in terms of concepts rather than mere objects. The language served to convey to those who were more mentally spiritually inclined and less so to those who thought merely about the black and white obvious.

 

A sample to merely consider in order to begin seeing the metaphorical understanding;

 

"God" => the way things work/Reality

"god" => a limited formula of the way something works

"blood" => issues of the heart

"bread" => knowledge

"unleavened bread" => unglorified facts

"red" => anger

"sea" => general population

"water" => issues

"river" => flow of issues

"spring"=> source of issues

"clouds"=> confusion of issues

"fire" => destructive passionate conflict

"firmament" => unchanging concerns

"Earth" => common and material objects

 

"Staff" =>

 

The concept of a staff requires a little more explanation.

 

A staff is both something that helps keep a man upright as well as providing a means for defense. Think in terms of a presidents staff or a set of rules which provide clarity for an issue and the ability to then see what must be done.

 

Example;

 

A “Staff of Truth”

 

1) Always consider all possible sides of an issue.

2) Always consider the probabilities of each side.

3) Simplify when possible but let nothing be left out

4) Maintain a “big picture” which the new issue must fit into, add to, or alter.

5) Avoid fear of accepting a truth due to its implications

6) Regard the most pure real truth with favor

7) Often re-examine prior conclusions so as to seek out any new doubt

8) Strive for absolute doubtless concepts

9) Seek new information for as long as time allows before any conclusion

10) Conclude ONLY when a conclusion is truly required

11) When possible experiment so as to increase the probability of a thought being accurate

12) Seek absolute accuracy with strong conviction

13) Include as part of every conclusion “It appears from what all I currently understand that …”

14) Consider every possibility by examining 1)consistency 2)completeness 3)relevance

15) Remember that lusting for a conclusion is the ONLY error of the mind.

16) Keep in mind that at any time you might have to revise what you have proclaimed as truth

17) Depend only upon that which you are most certain.

18) Keep in mind that every thought is a matter of probability based on current information

 

------------------------------------------------------

This is ONLY provided if you give a shit - <<--- that is the message

[Antlerman]

With all respect Antlerman, even if Ssel is mentally ill that says nothing about his capability to be correct in what he is saying.

 

Have you ever heard of Nobel Prize winner in economics John Nash? There is a biography about him called "A Beautiful Mind." His wife had him commited and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He suffered 30 years of delusions.

 

Don't miss what he is saying based on a stigma.

 

I just don't like the connection that you make here when you say that high intelligence doesn't make someone immune to mental illness. It appears that you might be saying that mental illness negates everything he says. I could be wrong though.

 

You know I respect you and find great meaning in what you post so please don't take this the wrong way, I just felt I had to say something and it could be me that is reading something into your post that was not meant by you. If so, I apologize.

I questioned myself saying this, as despite the challenges that Ssel may have in his life, he is a person and deserves to be respected. I may not have used the best judgment in pointing this out so openly. I guess I was feeling it was important to mention as people with schizophrenia are very convincing people and have a way of drawing people into their delusions, and that I was hoping that understanding there is an illness behind this would help keep things in a particular context, to maybe make things a little less offensive and understandable to myself and perhaps others. I have a family member with mental illness and I have to remind myself of this all the time to not have the same expectaions of their behavior as I would others. I have to constantly remind myself I am the responsible adult. It is very painful and personal to me.

 

I have overstepped and I apologize sincerely to anyone I have offended in my saying those things.

[NotBlinded]

With all respect Antlerman, even if Ssel is mentally ill that says nothing about his capability to be correct in what he is saying.

 

Have you ever heard of Nobel Prize winner in economics John Nash? There is a biography about him called "A Beautiful Mind." His wife had him commited and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He suffered 30 years of delusions.

 

Don't miss what he is saying based on a stigma.

 

I just don't like the connection that you make here when you say that high intelligence doesn't make someone immune to mental illness. It appears that you might be saying that mental illness negates everything he says. I could be wrong though.

 

You know I respect you and find great meaning in what you post so please don't take this the wrong way, I just felt I had to say something and it could be me that is reading something into your post that was not meant by you. If so, I apologize.

I questioned myself saying this, as despite the challenges that Ssel may have in his life, he is a person and deserves to be respected. I may not have used the best judgment in pointing this out so openly. I guess I was feeling it was important to mention as people with schizophrenia are very convincing people and have a way of drawing people into their delusions, and that I was hoping that understanding there is an illness behind this would help keep things in a particular context, to maybe make things a little less offensive and understandable to myself and perhaps others. I have a family member with mental illness and I have to remind myself of this all the time to not have the same expectaions of their behavior as I would others. I have to constantly remind myself I am the responsible adult. It is very painful and personal to me.

 

I have overstepped and I apologize sincerely to anyone I have offended in my saying those things.

Okay...now I feel about tall (and that is pretty small for me...I'm 6'3"!). I shouldn't have assumed what I did and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt when you posted that. It is me that should apologize...I sincerely apologize Antlerman.

[Ssel]

I guess I was feeling it was important to mention as people with schizophrenia are very convincing people ..

Consider that even if I was truly totally dillusional, look at what I have been "trying to convince" people of;

 

1) STICK to serious objective logical thought, avoid emotionalism

2) Consider that the Bible has a metaphoical understanding before you trash it

 

Now, even if I absolutely convinced everyone involved of such, how would these things lead to any great danger or any great glorification of me?

[Mythra]

Ssel may or may not be a little tweaked. At this point, far be it for me to make that call.

 

But, you gotta admit, he's got an interesting viewpoint about things. Who knows - maybe he's got the key to unlocking the "mysteries" of the bible.

 

Well, maybe.

[Asuryan]

Ssel may or may not be a little tweaked. At this point, far be it for me to make that call.

 

But, you gotta admit, he's got an interesting viewpoint about things. Who knows - maybe he's got the key to unlocking the "mysteries" of the bible.

 

Well, maybe.

 

I don't know...

 

What he says can be said for all books of the world. What happens if you take the Qur-An and say that Allah = Reality? What happens if you take a book about japanese cooking and you say that rice = Reality? I don't know if I've made myself clear.

Plus you have to admit that his latest post on his background is just a bit scaaary. Especially the horror-witnessing part, and... a guy RAISED to be an intellectual and think like an ancient sophist? A Rabbi that works with intelligence agencies? Ummm...

 

And I'm still waiting an answer to my questions. It's a bit too easy for the guy to just say "she's not agreeing with me so I won't talk with her anymore, since she's clearly not humble enough to understand the great importance of what I'm saying". Come on: answer me.

[crazy-tiger]

I guess I was feeling it was important to mention as people with schizophrenia are very convincing people ..

Consider that even if I was truly totally dillusional, look at what I have been "trying to convince" people of;

 

1) STICK to serious objective logical thought, avoid emotionalism

2) Consider that the Bible has a metaphoical understanding before you trash it

 

Now, even if I absolutely convinced everyone involved of such, how would these things lead to any great danger or any great glorification of me?

You forgot 3) That you just happen to know exactly what the Bible really says, that you just happen to know exactly what God is, that no-one can disagree with you because they're too stupid to understand you... (cult leader, anyone?)

 

Meanwhile, you often fail to stick to serious objective logical thought, you often fall into emotionalism, and refuse to accept that you're just guessing that the Bible has any kind of metaphorical understanding. Oh, and accuse people of doing what they aren't, twist what they say so they seem to say something else, all too often attack the person instead of the argument, and are basically a complete jerk...

 

 

 

There are 2 descriptions for someone like that... Troll and Fundy.

 

Which are you?