Why Deism?

[Mythra]

I don't get Deism, or Theism or whatever you want to call it. I got Christianity. At the time I thought I was taking the word of a dude who could do all of this cool stuff and rose from the dead. I got that.

 

I don't get Deism. What's the point? To make yourself feel more secure? So you have someone to tuck you in at night? Where's the evidence for that belief? There are quite a few here whom I respect immensely who are Deists. I just can't see it, myself - it seems just as irrational as believing in biblegod. Why bother?

[willybilly30]

its hard to explain

its just a feeling that theirs more out their than what i see, hear, feel and think.

i just cant help feeling theirs a creator.

some scientist say its a god gene and in our brains. maybe it is.

religion was easy for me to throw away expecially christianity it took awhile but i threw it away dont beleave in it.

the idea of a creator is not so easy to throw away.

 

i dont know alot about deism so i hope my opinion is ok.

i go with the make yourself feel more secure. maybe someday ill feel secure with out thinking theirs a creator or possible afterlife.

theirs no evidence for the belief i dont think. seems like any evidence i come up with theirs a reason for that dont need a creator. like the universe i could say a creator made it. but theirs nothing that says a creator made it at all or even need a creator.

it just gives me some sense of hope that maybe a false sense of hope.

kind of like picking up a penny and thinking it will give you good luck i guess i mean maybe youll have a good day or a lousy one.

i suck at explaining this i know i do but i thought id try

[Mythra]

i dont know alot about deism so i hope my opinion is ok.

 

Don't be a goof. Of course your opinion is okay. And, I appreciate honesty.

 

I'm not ridiculing anyone for what they believe. As long as they don't think everyone else has to believe the way that they do.

 

Deism can't be completely irrational or without merit. Heimdall's a Deist. And, he is very far from irrational. And Ben Franklin and other founding fathers were deists. I'm just curious how a person comes to this conclusion about things.

[NotBlinded]

I came to the conclusion that there has to be some force or consiousness that is behind the animation of living beings. Sure, we have a body and a brain, but what makes it come alive? If it's energy, then energy is what I see as being this force. But, it would have to have some sort of intelligence in order to accomplish what it does. IMO

 

So, no it doesn't make one feel more secure by having a personal entity available for one's every beckoning call - it just makes one feel a part of nature or the universe or all that is.

[Mythra]

So, are there many different interpretations of Deism? Can you just subscribe to the idea that there is some universal "life force", or "energy" or some kind of vibration that runs through all life or something like that? Or does Deism, by definition, require the belief in a higher intelligent being similar to YHWH - only without the sin and redemption and condemnation and anger?

 

I just can't comprehend a giant spirit being who could create this earth with the wave of his hand - let alone the billions and billions of stars and galaxies that are out there. It sounds way too simplistic.

[Dio]

Good topic, Mythra. I believe Bruce also holds to a form of deism (forgive me if I'm mistaken about this Bruce). He's one dude who has earned my respect here for sure.

 

Anyway, I don't understand the rationality of a being that created this enormous universe, but also created miniscule life here on our planet and perhaps other planets. If he did so, then why would he leave it (us) to its (our) own devices without revelation or some sort of expression of himself (itself?). It almost leads me back to monotheism along the lines of abrahamic religions. Unless creation itself (or what I used to call general revelation) alone is the expression of the creator. But this leads me to a Spinozan sort of pantheism. I think I would like to be a deist if I could grasp the evidence or maybe the necessity of it.

[willybilly30]

coming to a conclusion is something thats hard for me too do. my brains got a billion questions and when i try to answer one it leads to another question. the ongly answer i can think of for most of them is a creator problem is that leads to more questions. thats one problem i had with religion.

i like deism the idea of god without religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i dont know alot about deism so i hope my opinion is ok.

 

Don't be a goof. Of course your opinion is okay. And, I appreciate honesty.

 

I'm not ridiculing anyone for what they believe. As long as they don't think everyone else has to believe the way that they do.

 

Deism can't be completely irrational or without merit. Heimdall's a Deist. And, he is very far from irrational. And Ben Franklin and other founding fathers were deists. I'm just curious how a person comes to this conclusion about things.

[white_raven23]

While I cannot in any way condone Biblegod, I cannot exclude the possibility that there is "something". And just because I don't understand the purpose or nature of that something, it doesn't mean it cannot be there.

I threw out religion. It was foolish. I saw no reason however to discard a god who never "revealed" or "instructed" anything at all. Do I angrily deny the existence of a being who was NOT truly involved in the lies perpetuated by other people?

I guess most people, when they believe in a god, use such belief to immediately convey their own opinion as to the purpose of the universe and everything in it. Most people see the belief in a god, and the purpose of the universe as a "linked" thought pattern. Personally, I don't.

I feel there is something there. Do I know what it wants? No. I don't even know that it wants anything at all. I don't think it does want anything really specific at all (my opinion). Because if it did, SURELY it is more than capable of conveying such a desire clearly and without doubt to every single creation. Thereby negating conflicts of interpretation and whatnot.

 

Does god intercede in our lives? Don't know. No direct evidence. If it does, it certainly doesn't seem to want everyone to know about it, or again, such evidence would be 100% without doubt.

 

If anything at all, I think such a being (at this point in my experience) is the ultimate observer at this point. Way back before the beginning of anything this being started something. As to how much direct intervention went into the crafting of the universe as we perceive it (or how much is still going on now)......no idea.

 

As for my spirituality.....it's focus is now in rejuvenating MYSELF rather than exhausting my personal energies towards a being that had not indicated that such fawning was ever the intent.

Personally, I don't expect anything at all from such a being......now anyway.

 

I guess I go for deism because at some point I want to have some real answers revealed when my time here is done (idealistic and fuzzy I know). While I see no purpose or intent for myself specifically, I feel there ought to be some purpose for sentience in live beings (not limited to humans here), else why have it? There are plenty of creatures on earth doing just fine without it (bacteria comes to mind). In terms of keeping the ball rolling, all that is really necessary for any species is the ability to survive, breed, and die. Variations exist to prevent stagnation, but why have them at all? And is sentience REALLY a plus if it's completely negated by our deaths? To live our lives knowing one day we'll eventually be dead is a pretty raw deal if there really is nothing "after". What is the point at all if that is the case?

 

And my self defense if that does end up being the case? I keep learning new things. I keep developing as a "who". I kinda feel like if my "who" is a BIG "WHO" highly detailed and developed, then maybe some part of me will "survive" (in some context) after death.

 

Maybe it is silly, warm, illogical, and fuzzy. But I prefer some sort of purpose (even though I don't know what that purpose is) to none at all.

[Mythra]

I don't know what I am, exactly. I guess I'd call myself a soft atheist. I have a pretty good hunch that there is nothing out there that could be called god or the big "universal mind" or anything like that. But, I'd be happy to change my mind if there were a reason to.

 

I just don't see life as pointless, even if there is no god. Animals don't worry about the meaning of life. They don't wonder if this is all there is. They just live. And, as for domestic animals, as long as they're treated okay, they seem to enjoy life just fine. They find a wide range of things to do that give them "fulfillment" and pleasure and a reason to wake up the next day.

 

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.

[Dio]

I just don't see life as pointless, even if there is no god. Animals don't worry about the meaning of life. They don't wonder if this is all there is. They just live.

I disagree. My dog went through a deep depression brought on by an existentialist crisis of despair and fueled by the need for self-actualization. The only thing that saved him was my reading Camus and Kierkegaard to him. Just kidding, but aren't humans bizarre in this way?

 

And, as for domestic animals, as long as they're treated okay, they seem to enjoy life just fine. They find a wide range of things to do that give them "fulfillment" and pleasure and a reason to wake up the next day.

And that basically boils down to eating, sleeping, playing and sex. All the things that religion makes us feel guilty about.

 

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.

Same here.

[Mythra]

I disagree. My dog went through a deep depression brought on by an existentialist crisis of despair and fueled by the need for self-actualization. The only thing that saved him was my reading Camus and Kierkegaard to him. Just kidding, but aren't humans bizarre in this way?

 

I was laughing my ass off way before I got to "just kidding"..

 

Good one, Dio.

[scitsofreaky]

So, are there many different interpretations of Deism? Can you just subscribe to the idea that there is some universal "life force", or "energy" or some kind of vibration that runs through all life or something like that? Or does Deism, by definition, require the belief in a higher intelligent being similar to YHWH - only without the sin and redemption and condemnation and anger?

Deism has no dogma. Deism is about what you believe, not what others believe. These days it seems many deists have an eastern slant on God (eg taoism like Bruce) or pantheism (eg panendeism).

Why be a deist? To be honest with ourselves. We believe in some sort of god/life force thingy, and to say otherwise is a lie.

But like everything else, there are the bad apples. The douche bags who say that you have to believe what they believe to be a deist. Luckily they are few and far between, and are usually just totally ignored.

I can give you some links to a couple of good deist forums if you are interested.

[willybilly30]

So, are there many different interpretations of Deism? Can you just subscribe to the idea that there is some universal "life force", or "energy" or some kind of vibration that runs through all life or something like that? Or does Deism, by definition, require the belief in a higher intelligent being similar to YHWH - only without the sin and redemption and condemnation and anger?

Deism has no dogma. Deism is about what you believe, not what others believe. These days it seems many deists have an eastern slant on God (eg taoism like Bruce) or pantheism (eg panendeism).

Why be a deist? To be honest with ourselves. We believe in some sort of god/life force thingy, and to say otherwise is a lie.

But like everything else, there are the bad apples. The douche bags who say that you have to believe what they believe to be a deist. Luckily they are few and far between, and are usually just totally ignored.

I can give you some links to a couple of good deist forums if you are interested.

 

im interested it sounds interesting. whats the link?

[scitsofreaky]

This forum you don't need to be registered to see most of the areas.

This forum you need to register to see anything worth reading, but registration is free, so why not?

[willybilly30]

i joined dynamic deism im not sure if i joined positive deism right or not i havent got a email ill try again later

[Checkmate]

I feel you, Mythra. When I first abandoned Christ, I tried to settle into deism. But after only two months of this, I said "why bother?" I don't believe, and that's that. Why seek any compromise? To me it felt as though I were trying to keep my options open, "just in case."

 

Finally, I just said, "Fuck it! No gods for me. PERIOD."

 

I actually don't see that much difference between atheism/deism/agnostics. NONE of them think much about "god". I mean, I could be wrong, but do you deists actually spend time and effort SEEKING "god"? Or do you simply live your life, one day at a time, like me and Mythra, not giving it any thought?

 

If the latter, then how is deism any different than atheism? What's the difference between having no god-belief, and having no god to believe in? You wind up in the same place.

 

Don't you?

[necrosmith]

I don't get Deism, or Theism or whatever you want to call it. I got Christianity. At the time I thought I was taking the word of a dude who could do all of this cool stuff and rose from the dead. I got that.

 

I don't get Deism. What's the point? To make yourself feel more secure? So you have someone to tuck you in at night? Where's the evidence for that belief? There are quite a few here whom I respect immensely who are Deists. I just can't see it, myself - it seems just as irrational as believing in biblegod. Why bother?

 

Read the Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

 

Google it for a website.

 

Very good read.

[MQTA]

So, are there many different interpretations of Deism? Can you just subscribe to the idea that there is some universal "life force", or "energy" or some kind of vibration that runs through all life or something like that? Or does Deism, by definition, require the belief in a higher intelligent being similar to YHWH - only without the sin and redemption and condemnation and anger?

 

I guess it's putting a word to 'something', don't know what it is, but it's the Unknown Bucket...

 

What would you call the 'life force' or 'energy' that flows through all things? The innate intelligence that beats our heart, processes our air, grows our hair, etc, etc, and that's just each of us.

 

Billions upon billions of other living things on this planet, things living in things, living in things! How, what why? Nobody knows, but we sure do all wonder, no? Some sort of 'higher' 'intelligence'... higher at least than us. I don't know where the leap is from us to BibleGod, but there's 'something'. We're surely not it.

 

99.99999% of all the other creatures, As far as WE know, couldn't care less about how/what/why, they just go about living their lives. What's the 3 things all but humans seem to care mainly about? Sex, Food, and constant preparations for both while not actually doing one or the other.

 

We're cursed with being able to ponder all this shit, and some people never stop looking or being open to the answer, others just accept whatever's thrown at them while growing up and questioning.

 

 

I just can't comprehend a giant spirit being who could create this earth with the wave of his hand - let alone the billions and billions of stars and galaxies that are out there. It sounds way too simplistic.

 

Yeah, me neither. Panspermia sounds feasible though. What'd they say in Jurassic Park? "Life will find a way" ?

 

Whatever it is, it sure is, and we only know of it cause we're conscious of it and have a means of communicating with others.

 

I still have no real answer.. just a whole lot of ideas.

 

 

What I wonder is where do people find the time? Even before the net & computers started taking all my leisure, and more, I couldn't imagine having to 'be somewhere' every Sunday, or live by a calendar (although, I usually end up at parties with food during them LOL).

 

So the other side of the equation would be, what would these people do, who are so wrapped up in the dogma, pomp and constant consciousness of Christianity do if they suddenly had all this extra time? Although, I guess some of you here could answer that.. but I'm under the impression it was a gradual thing for most.

[Vigile]

I came to the conclusion that there has to be some force or consiousness that is behind the animation of living beings. Sure, we have a body and a brain, but what makes it come alive?

 

Isn't this just creating a "god of the gaps" though? How can you honestly CONCLUDE anything without evidence? Your evidence it occurs to me is "I can't explain life, therefore there has to be some force or consciosness." Maybe there doesn't. I just don't see how you can come to any conclusions here especially given the scientific record of explaining away the supernatural by natural means.

[MQTA]

While I cannot in any way condone Biblegod, I cannot exclude the possibility that there is "something". And just because I don't understand the purpose or nature of that something, it doesn't mean it cannot be there.

I threw out religion. It was foolish. I saw no reason however to discard a god who never "revealed" or "instructed" anything at all. Do I angrily deny the existence of a being who was NOT truly involved in the lies perpetuated by other people?

I guess most people, when they believe in a god, use such belief to immediately convey their own opinion as to the purpose of the universe and everything in it. Most people see the belief in a god, and the purpose of the universe as a "linked" thought pattern. Personally, I don't.

I feel there is something there. Do I know what it wants? No. I don't even know that it wants anything at all. I don't think it does want anything really specific at all (my opinion). Because if it did, SURELY it is more than capable of conveying such a desire clearly and without doubt to every single creation. Thereby negating conflicts of interpretation and whatnot.

 

I guess there's 2 issues, maybe more. 1. who/what created All This, 2. is he/she/it still here, 3. and active in our lives?

 

Is this planet a spinning top? It was set in motion and it's a selfperpetuating ecosystem? A single organism. (always figured trees and grass were like the planet's Hair)

 

What I never really noticed/accepted/appreciated/understood before this last year is the sheer Scale and Size of things. Sure, I look at a grain of sand on a beach, or an ant in an ant hill, and compare to whales and elephants, but Earth.. and the Sun.. never really considered the size relationship before.

 

I didn't get that 99.9% of the Entire Mass of our solar system is the Sun. Wow. 1 million earths, or 4 million moons, could fit easily inside the Sun. We're like an atom, In a grain of Sand, on the Sun's beach. The moon is but an electron.

 

 

It's clear our ancestors had no clue of the size, or much of anything else other than their ground level point of view. But wow! We're like nothing.

 

 

Does god intercede in our lives? Don't know. No direct evidence. If it does, it certainly doesn't seem to want everyone to know about it, or again, such evidence would be 100% without doubt.

 

If anything at all, I think such a being (at this point in my experience) is the ultimate observer at this point. Way back before the beginning of anything this being started something. As to how much direct intervention went into the crafting of the universe as we perceive it (or how much is still going on now)......no idea.

 

Lots of possibilities... if it's like the Sumerians wrote about... we're just genetically engineered from life that was already here into what we are now. That just pushes the questions further out, to life elsewhere in the universe going against the Federation Prime Directive and changing the course of our history.

 

Who really knows? Deception is the only thing we can count on.

 

As for my spirituality.....it's focus is now in rejuvenating MYSELF rather than exhausting my personal energies towards a being that had not indicated that such fawning was ever the intent.

Personally, I don't expect anything at all from such a being......now anyway.

 

When I found Dyer's books back in the early 90s, he confirmed a lot of my viewpoints and ideas, he helped me help myself. His later books go into Spirituality, nice, but this earlier books were all I needed to feel it's ok if I'm really on my own... I figure if there's a God, who cares, I'm on the right path. If not... I'm on the right path. Win-Win, no Pascal

 

 

I guess I go for deism because at some point I want to have some real answers revealed when my time here is done (idealistic and fuzzy I know). While I see no purpose or intent for myself specifically, I feel there ought to be some purpose for sentience in live beings (not limited to humans here), else why have it? There are plenty of creatures on earth doing just fine without it (bacteria comes to mind). In terms of keeping the ball rolling, all that is really necessary for any species is the ability to survive, breed, and die. Variations exist to prevent stagnation, but why have them at all? And is sentience REALLY a plus if it's completely negated by our deaths? To live our lives knowing one day we'll eventually be dead is a pretty raw deal if there really is nothing "after". What is the point at all if that is the case?

 

It's all emotional and we are just that way.. designed, accidental, who knows... but we sure are an emotional lot. Nobody wants to be in this alone, some couldn't even dare entertain the thought. That must be why they say Atheists are of Satan, they can't imagine No Thing, so if it's Not God, it Must be Satan.

 

If I'm going to accept any of the mumbo jumbo, I think reincarnation sounds best. If our spirit is eternal, it was before we were us, someone else prior, and will be in the future. If 3-5 yr olds can have some strange information about what they weren't yet taught, then maybe there is something to it. Feeling/hearing from deceased relatives, even if imaginary and just comforting, makes ya wonder if there's more to it. That would be all Earthbound, no need for an active God like figure, just something perpetuated for all eternity... or longer than we'll ever need to concern ourselves with.

 

 

And my self defense if that does end up being the case? I keep learning new things. I keep developing as a "who". I kinda feel like if my "who" is a BIG "WHO" highly detailed and developed, then maybe some part of me will "survive" (in some context) after death.

 

I'm going to give my kids some information to remember, and give their kids, so that if some day in the future, some new parents contact them saying their kid is babbling this information, they'll know it's ME.

 

 

Maybe it is silly, warm, illogical, and fuzzy. But I prefer some sort of purpose (even though I don't know what that purpose is) to none at all.

 

Even if there is a purpose, there really is no purpose, we're all just hamsters running on a wheel. The purpose is in your own historical making, and the direction you wish to go in. But what does it all matter? Even if there's reincarnation and you learn more and more, or at least get to have different experiences, what's a purpose other than the experiences?

 

If we're spiritual beings having a human experience, then I'm glad I never limited myself to someone else's idea of what mine should be. I have no regrets for anything I've ever done, just a lot of tough lessons and grand experiences which the memory of lasted a lot longer than it did.

 

Unfortunately, most of my better days are behind me... thanks for the memories

[Guest JPD]

I see Deism as a two-fold admission.

 

1. This universe is amazing. This existence is amazing. The wold is a marvelously beautiful amazing place. Something caused it. Somehow, someway, something made all of this happen, and it's wonderful.

 

2. I don't know what caused all this, but whatever it is, that is God. If I am to know what God is like, the only recourse available to me is to observe the creation, the universe. Reality bears the clues as to the character of god, but there are no edicts, no rules, no parameters for a righteous existence, beyond whatever it is you perceive to be right.

 

Seems simple enough. What free thinker would take issue with these precepts?

[Vigile]

 

I have no problem with Deists. Who am I to tell someone what to believe as long as they aren't harming or bugging others with it? I can't wrap my mind around it though, no matter how much I would really like to. As fantastic as the universe is and as unlikely as it seems to us, the idea of a first mover or something of that sort would be even more fantastic and much, much, much more unlikely making it impossible for me to justify entertaining. I don't see this as an arrogant position to take but rather the only position I can take. Science does have a lot of open ended questions but it also has a history of answered questions and a perfect record for answering those questions naturally. Without even an iota of evidence for anything that is not natural I have to stick to the expectation that those things that we cannot now understand have natural explanations to them, we just haven't gathered enough evidence or have not yet developed an understanding in these areas yet.

 

If I"m proven wrong, so be it. I will accept that.

 

Atheism...for me personally, feels like a reactionary movement, with just as much ferver and certainty...where I don't feel it.

 

To me atheism is just a lable I'm stuck with because I can't buy into the god concept. I don't choose it, it chooses me. We are all atheists to a degree, I just believe in at least one less sentient being than those that believe in at least one.

[Vigile]

 

I'm not trying to convince you. (and I'm sure you didn't think I was) I have nothing to gain or lose whether you agree with me or not. The point is honesty. I'm being emotionally/spiritually/intellectually honest with myself.

 

You are doing the same. It's really all anyone can ask.

 

I know you're not Zoe, nor am I trying to convince you. Just a friendly discussion, that's all.

[Checkmate]

................

To me atheism is just a lable I'm stuck with because I can't buy into the god concept. I don't choose it, it chooses me. We are all atheists to a degree, I just believe in at least one less sentient being than those that believe in at least one.

Exactly. We've been round and round the horn on this "label" issue. While I would prefer NOT to have any label, "atheist" has been forced upon me. I didn't go out and CHOOSE to be an atheist. It's my default position regarding "god". I am "without god belief", ergo an ATHEIST. I belong to no club, nor do I adhere to any "atheist beliefs". I'm just a person who says, "WTF?" a LOT when it comes to "god" and matters of the spiritual.

[Mythra]

Hmm. Interesting posts, all.

 

So, from what I'm gathering here, Deism is not at all like a type of informalized religion. It's more of a feeling that "there must be something more" - something that is beyond what we can comprehend. I like Zoe Grace's phrasing - that it stems from the "what the fuck" principal.

 

Interesting stuff. So how did you all get from the "well it could be like this" stage to the point where you can say "this is what I believe"?

 

Or, is everyone still at the point where all of this is anyone's guess - and here's what kind of makes sense to me?

 

Am I making sense?

 

Maybe to me the only truly honest position is to say - truthfully, I don't really fucking know. But here's some interesting stuff that I think about from time to time.