Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Why Deism?


Mythra

Recommended Posts

Wow, this is some deep thought. I love it.

 

 

I've got my own personal conclusions/delusions, or theories anyway, too. If someone can put a name to it, I'd be glad to learn what it should be called. Forgive the rambling below, and if it's not worth deciphering, that's ok. just go to next post. And there IS a lot of ramble below...

 

1) I have a weak belief in the following:

 

A universal life force. Every insect, plant, living thing is powered by some extra-ordinary or extra-dimensional unseen life force. When a thing dies, it's lifeforce power goes back to the great life force, which I call, in scientifc terms, the "big blob". It gets totally absorbed by the big blob. Whatever it was, is mixed with whatever's in the blob. Individuality may be lost as the old life rejoins the blob, or it could be that the experiences of the old life are somehow stored in the blob. A new pinch comes off the blob and creates a new life in our world. In the case of humans, that pinch may contain much of a previous life, which wasn't mixed up well, and in such cases, it shows evidence of reincarnation (but it really wasn't).

 

I dont know if this would make the blob to be god or not. Did the blob always exist and create the universe so that it could entertain itself by living billions of lives? Or did god create the blob and the universe for it? Or is the blob just a part of the universe?

 

Dont know, and its not worth fighting about is it?

 

Further thoughts, using the same scenario:

 

Perhaps there's a link between each life on this planet and the contents of the blob. Then each of us has a link, and can sometimes access information in the blob. I think this would also be a step toward explaining reincarnation and esp.

 

 

2) One more other "out there" theory from a slightly different angle, and then I'm done:

 

Perhaps reincarnation, as usually defined, is real. But perhaps reincarnation comes from an extra-dimensional place where time is not of any concern. In this case, I could die, and then reincarnate as someone in the 1800's. I could reincarnate as my own sister even, and live simultaneously in two bodies as seen on earth, but sequentially if seen from the extra dimension. Perhaps we are all the same person, reincarnating up and down through history. Since I dont think god made everything, and then created this one guy to reincarnate up and down through history, it must in fact be god himself who is living all lives on the earth. Therefore, we're all god.

 

I think I've mentioned that last theory before.

 

None of this affects my life in anyway, other than a momentary satisfaction when I ponder it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Goodbye Jesus
Practically speaking there is little difference between me and an atheist. I'm not much of a ritualist...I don't pray or anything of that nature. And yet...to say I'm an atheist feels dishonest, because it feels like trying to shove myself into someone else's mold to predefine me to make other people's lives easier.

 

Interesting point. This is another reason why I'm agnostic myself. Why should I have to put myself into a nice, neat box for other people? Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Christians who came up with the atheist label in the first place to fit their preconceived notions of an unbeliever? Not everyone who doesn't believe in Christianity fits neatly into the atheist box.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A universal life force. Every insect, plant, living thing is powered by some extra-ordinary or extra-dimensional unseen life force. When a thing dies, it's lifeforce power goes back to the great life force, which I call, in scientifc terms, the "big blob".

 

Perhaps this could explain why we sometimes feel a sense of "connectedness" with nature. A sense of sadness when a catastrophe - like a forest fire - takes place.

 

I have this feeling quite a bit. I've even said hello to a tree a time or two. (When no one was watching, of course) I'm not quite as over-the-top as that girl who camped out in a redwood for a year so that they wouldn't cut it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see Deism as a two-fold admission.

 

1. This universe is amazing. This existence is amazing. The wold is a marvelously beautiful amazing place. Something caused it. Somehow, someway, something made all of this happen, and it's wonderful.

 

2. I don't know what caused all this, but whatever it is, that is God. If I am to know what God is like, the only recourse available to me is to observe the creation, the universe. Reality bears the clues as to the character of god, but there are no edicts, no rules, no parameters for a righteous existence, beyond whatever it is you perceive to be right.

 

Seems simple enough. What free thinker would take issue with these precepts?

This is a great summation of deism in general.

Real quick I do want to focus on one type/class of deism: panendeism. Unlike classical deism, which says that there is some sort of prime mover, panendeists don't believe that we are separate from God. God contains everything, but many believe that God is also more than everything. Everything is a holon, ie simultaneously a whole unto itself and a part of something else. Most panendeists believe that God is the pinnicle of these holons. This could explain why we feel a connection with everything else in Nature, because while from one perspective we are all separate, from another perspective we are all part of a greater whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don't see life as pointless, even if there is no god. Animals don't worry about the meaning of life. They don't wonder if this is all there is. They just live.

I disagree. My dog went through a deep depression brought on by an existentialist crisis of despair and fueled by the need for self-actualization. The only thing that saved him was my reading Camus and Kierkegaard to him. Just kidding, but aren't humans bizarre in this way?

 

And, as for domestic animals, as long as they're treated okay, they seem to enjoy life just fine. They find a wide range of things to do that give them "fulfillment" and pleasure and a reason to wake up the next day.

And that basically boils down to eating, sleeping, playing and sex. All the things that religion makes us feel guilty about.

 

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.

Same here.

All that is said here is very profound to me. Animals don't worry about and they don't wonder if this is all there is. They are one with 'nature'. They are in that pre-thought state about who they are, which leads me into your response, dio, about your funny analogy to your dog. Dogs, or domesticated animals, that are around humans a lot can get depressed and suffer from anxiety. We tend to rub off on them! Humans are unique and I think this knowledge of 'ourself' has taken us away from being one with nature. We can't go back to the pre-thought state of animals, but maybe we can progress to a point that is similar by understanding that we also are not apart from nature and one with all that is (whatever that is). I think that whatever it is is what is refered to as 'god'. Not in the traditional sense, but in the sense of a life sustaining force.

 

I don't think it needs worship or desires it because that would limit it and give it a personality. What we have here, on this earth or in this universe or all of them, is 'It' and I think we are discovering many aspects of the way it works. I don't think we can ever know 'what' it is that is doing the work (forces of nature), but we can observe it's effects.

 

Myrtha, when you say that animals find pleasure and fulfillment every day, you are saying exactly what many spiritual teachers say when speaking of enlightenment. Animals are living life as it should be lived, in the present moment. They don't cloud their minds with ceasless thinking about the future and past events. When they wake up, all day and when they go to sleep, they are living in that moment.

 

 

That is where I am right now in my life. :grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't cloud their minds with ceasless thinking about the future and past events. When they wake up, all day and when they go to sleep, they are living in that moment.

 

 

That is where I am right now in my life. :grin:

 

 

LOL. I know a lot of Russians who live like that to. :lmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.
Hell, I'd like to see that. But I don't see one happening, at least not like you would hope. Every deist I have come across knows that their belief in some sort of god is just a belief. Deism bases your beliefs on what you have experienced with the knowledge that others probably wont, nay, shouldn't believe something because of what someone else says happened to them. I know that my beliefs wont hold up to a debate because all of my arguments would be heresay to anyone else. But they aren't heresay to me since I am the one that experienced them, so I'm not going to stop believeing because I couldn't debate with someone else.
I actually don't see that much difference between atheism/deism/agnostics. NONE of them think much about "god". I mean, I could be wrong, but do you deists actually spend time and effort SEEKING "god"? Or do you simply live your life, one day at a time, like me and Mythra, not giving it any thought?
I would agree that there is little difference between atheism deism and agnosticism. They seem to be different sides of the same coin (a special three sided coin, I guess).

I would say that yes, most deists do try to seek "god," depending on the view of god. Some believe that to understand Nature and its laws is to understand god, so they study science. Some believe that god can be found within themselves, so they study meditation and such. It really just depends on what view of god one is seeking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually don't see that much difference between atheism/deism/agnostics. NONE of them think much about "god". I mean, I could be wrong, but do you deists actually spend time and effort SEEKING "god"? Or do you simply live your life, one day at a time, like me and Mythra, not giving it any thought?

 

If the latter, then how is deism any different than atheism? What's the difference between having no god-belief, and having no god to believe in? You wind up in the same place.

 

Don't you? :twitch:

The only place I try to 'seek' god is in the silence of my own mind. And, that is a big effort to try to silence my mind on occasion!

 

What's the difference? Well, the difference it made to me was the realization of wholeness instead of being a separate entity that lives in the solar system on this earth. I see myself now as part of this living universe and earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came to the conclusion that there has to be some force or consiousness that is behind the animation of living beings. Sure, we have a body and a brain, but what makes it come alive?

 

Isn't this just creating a "god of the gaps" though? How can you honestly CONCLUDE anything without evidence? Your evidence it occurs to me is "I can't explain life, therefore there has to be some force or consciosness." Maybe there doesn't. I just don't see how you can come to any conclusions here especially given the scientific record of explaining away the supernatural by natural means.

I wasn't really clear in my post. I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe everything there is is perfectly natural and within this natural lies many forces and within those forces, one can see what can be classified as intellegence. Can we observe the effects? Yes, we are a mass of chemicals and water that is alive. Science explains all natural forces by observing it's effects - electricity, gravity, life and so on. We cannot observe electricity and gravity itself, but the effects of it. We cannot observe life itself, but the effects of it. So, I don't see it as a god of the gaps because whenever we (or scientists) discover anything, it is done by observing it's effects. When you look at a rock, you see the effect of atoms and molecules doing what they do, but what are they and who/what makes them do what they do in order to form the rock? So, evidence is gathered by observing effects. That is as far a science can go.

 

Hopefully that will clear up any misunderstandings.

 

They don't cloud their minds with ceasless thinking about the future and past events. When they wake up, all day and when they go to sleep, they are living in that moment.

 

 

That is where I am right now in my life. :grin:

 

 

LOL. I know a lot of Russians who live like that to. :lmao:

Okay...I guess that was funny when taken THAT way! :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.
Hell, I'd like to see that. But I don't see one happening, at least not like you would hope. Every deist I have come across knows that their belief in some sort of god is just a belief. Deism bases your beliefs on what you have experienced with the knowledge that others probably wont, nay, shouldn't believe something because of what s

 

 

Also...most deists don't seem to care enough to debate it. It's one of those...either you feel it or you don't, and if you don't you aren't lesser nor should you be converted, you're just different.

 

 

 

I wasn't really clear in my post. I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe everything there is is perfectly natural and within this natural lies many forces and within those forces, one can see what can be classified as intellegence. Can we observe the effects? Yes, we are a mass of chemicals and water that is alive. Science explains all natural forces by observing it's effects - electricity, gravity, life and so on. We cannot observe electricity and gravity itself, but the effects of it. We cannot observe life itself, but the effects of it. So, I don't see it as a god of the gaps because whenever we (or scientists) discover anything, it is done by observing it's effects. When you look at a rock, you see the effect of atoms and molecules doing what they do, but what are they and who/what makes them do what they do in order to form the rock? So, evidence is gathered by observing effects. That is as far a science can go.

 

Hopefully that will clear up any misunderstandings.

 

This is just the most fantastic thing I've ever seen written on this.

 

To add to that, words like supernatural and natural are ultimately meaningless. everything that exists is natural. If some really really weird shit exists...it exists. You can't make it not exist cause it's weird or yell "supernatural!" like it solves things and makes the phenomena disappear. And no I'm not going into examples...because the point here is theoretical...what exists exists. What doesn't, doesn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, but you can't 100% rule out a possibility because it "seems" supernatural. That's a cop out. IMO.

Thank you. :thanks:

 

Yes, I agree with you. It really gives more meaning to the words, "I'm sure it's something perfectly natural" when speaking about things that go bumb in the night!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings, all -- and pardon me if I'm butting in... but I had to find someplace to figure out how this forum-thingy works.

<pokes at buttons muttering, "Whazzis doohickey do?">

 

I can only try to answer Mythra's original question as a former deist..

 

After moving on from the bible, I spent quite a while in the deism/universal-life/zen-buddha-mind kind of space. I see it as kind of an echo, a side-effect of our ability to imagine a more perfect world. We WANT to be special, we want the universe to have a purpose, just like the preacher-man say.

 

But after a while, I began to question those thoughts as well. Finally, I just tried it on for size:

Okay, how about no god, no life force, no soul?

How about just accepting myself as a semi-random consequence of the mindless dance of DNA in a universe with neither conscious cause no any intelligent purpose at all?

 

Well, warm & fuzzy it's not... but once you say it out loud, it's kind of liberating, even comfortable once you settle in.

 

So I guess I could say my deism was a sort of spiritual teddy bear; nice to hug once in a while, but I outgrew the need for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings, all -- and pardon me if I'm butting in... but I had to find someplace to figure out how this forum-thingy works.

 

Hi cathura. Welcome to our world. And, we love to get butted in. - well, not literally. I'm not that kinda guy. But -

 

happy to have you here. I'm kinda where you are spiritually right now. I've pretty much had it.

 

But, it's still interesting to talk about things and investigate other's pov.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd really like to see a good debate here between deists and atheists - leaving biblegod out of the equation.
Hell, I'd like to see that. But I don't see one happening, at least not like you would hope. Every deist I have come across knows that their belief in some sort of god is just a belief. Deism bases your beliefs on what you have experienced with the knowledge that others probably wont, nay, shouldn't believe something because of what someone else says happened to them. I know that my beliefs wont hold up to a debate because all of my arguments would be heresay to anyone else. But they aren't heresay to me since I am the one that experienced them, so I'm not going to stop believeing because I couldn't debate with someone else.

 

A damn good point scitsofreaky. Deism....despite the "ism" label, is entirely personal. No dogma, no fellowship meetings, no specific ritual. Really no collective (unlike the Borg-Christians) at all. How do you debate a feeling?

 

Me: "I'm feeling chilly."

 

Friend: "No you aren't, you're fine."

 

Me: "What? No, I'm uncomfortable.....hand me that sweatshirt."

 

Friend: "Not until you can prove you feel chilly.....I ain't movin'" *clicks tv remote*

 

Me: "Oh come on! Okay.....look here, see the goosebumps on my arm? I'm cold, now give me the damn shirt!"

 

Friend: "How do I know you aren't just stressed or anxious about something? I've gotten goosebumps when people were trying to sneak up behind me."

 

Me: "Do you see anyone behind me motherfucker?!"

 

Friend: "No....but you're yelling at me now, so it's stress causing the goosebumps. You're not cold."

 

Me: "Arrrrggghh!"

 

...........

 

Friend: "Still think you're chilly?"

 

Me: "No.....now I'm hot. You pissed me off."

 

Friend: "Told ya you weren't chilly."

 

*a scene of tasteless violence ensues.....let's just say the tv remote was applied less-than-lovingly to the Friend's posterior oriface*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me: "I'm feeling chilly."

 

Friend: "No you aren't, you're fine."

 

Me: "What? No, I'm uncomfortable.....hand me that sweatshirt."

 

Friend: "Not until you can prove you feel chilly.....I ain't movin'" *clicks tv remote*

 

Me: "Oh come on! Okay.....look here, see the goosebumps on my arm? I'm cold, now give me the damn shirt!"

 

Friend: "How do I know you aren't just stressed or anxious about something? I've gotten goosebumps when people were trying to sneak up behind me."

 

Me: "Do you see anyone behind me motherfucker?!"

 

Friend: "No....but you're yelling at me now, so it's stress causing the goosebumps. You're not cold."

 

Me: "Arrrrggghh!"

 

...........

 

Friend: "Still think you're chilly?"

 

Me: "No.....now I'm hot. You pissed me off."

 

Friend: "Told ya you weren't chilly."

 

*a scene of tasteless violence ensues.....let's just say the tv remote was applied less-than-lovingly to the Friend's posterior oriface*

That is priceless!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am the "old fashioned Deist, :Old: the one that really only accepts the possibility of a Creator and goes no further than that. I look around, see a life friendly universe, a "God Gene" built into us, the existence of a conscience and consider these possible signs of a Creator :scratch: . On the old forum (the original one, way back in the stone age) :Hmm: I posted my thoughts on Deism and the Creator, but that post is long gone now. I see that mathematically a “created” universe is just as likely as a “self-started” universe. Just what this “Creator” or “Creation Force” is, I really don’t know, but I am fairly certain that it is not a megalomaniacal, blood-thirsty :Duivel7: humanoid entity that needs constant “ego-stroking”, in the form of praising :17: by lesser beings! I cannot see a God that has any particular interest in a tribe of hairless, constantly chattering apes that inhabit a mediocre mud ball spinning around a very average star :nono: . The evidence (what little there is) indicates that life itself is favored, with no particular preference to any particular species. :rolleyes: The Creator seems to have started the whole shooting match, installed “free will” and sat back to observe. :phew: No where in any culture or any place in the world (or greater universe) is there signs that he has ever interfered with his creation. :pyth: We seem to think that we are the epitome of creation, God’s greatest work, but I rather doubt that he considers us as anything special. In comparison to him (and quite possibly other alien races) we are little more than microbes! Would we choose a particular species of microbe and attempt to communicate with it, give it sets of laws, or establish a plan to save the believers, rewarding them with paradise and punishing the non-believers with eternal torment? Why should one, that is greater that we can ever aspire to be, do such either? Is there a Creator – I vote a resounding “Possibly”. When science can show me that a universe can self-start, then I will become an Atheist. - Heimdall :yellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kinda off-topic, but still related: What, exactly, does it mean to feel that something is true, as some people in this thread have said? I feel cold. I feel warm. I feel happy. I feel sad. But I don't feel that something is true or false. I think in terms of true or false, but I don't feel these things. Why do you label that particular feeling as truth and not others?

 

Just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kinda off-topic, but still related: What, exactly, does it mean to feel that something is true, as some people in this thread have said? I feel cold. I feel warm. I feel happy. I feel sad. But I don't feel that something is true or false. I think in terms of true or false, but I don't feel these things. Why do you label that particular feeling as truth and not others?

 

Just curious.

That is a very good question. It just rings true with every reasoning ability that one has to logically conclude there must be something that causes things to do what they do. The way molecules seem to know how to combine to form different things and the way one's blood 'swims' under the microscope. There seems to be something unseen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now Heimdall's post reflects what I've always understood Deism to be. Some of the other ideas expressed here almost move into what I've always known as Pantheism.

 

I looked it up, and evidently there is also a difference between Theism and Deism.

 

Here is a list of definitions for anyone wanting to find out more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I kind of enjoyed "Kathenotheism". The belief that there is more than one god, but they like to take turns on who gets the worship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is an interesting piece about the difference between deism and theism. I recomend checking out the other threads in the deism section. Travis Clemensmith(the author) and I both consider ourselves Integral panendeists.

 

As an aside of sorts, while deists usually don't debate with non-deists, the debates between deists can be fun to read. Check out the two forums I listed earlier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am the "old fashioned Deist, :Old: the one that really only accepts the possibility of a Creator and goes no further than that. I look around, see a life friendly universe, a "God Gene" built into us, the existence of a conscience and consider these possible signs of a Creator :scratch: . On the old forum (the original one, way back in the stone age) :Hmm: I posted my thoughts on Deism and the Creator, but that post is long gone now. I see that mathematically a “created” universe is just as likely as a “self-started” universe. Just what this “Creator” or “Creation Force” is, I really don’t know, but I am fairly certain that it is not a megalomaniacal, blood-thirsty :Duivel7: humanoid entity that needs constant “ego-stroking”, in the form of praising :17: by lesser beings! I cannot see a God that has any particular interest in a tribe of hairless, constantly chattering apes that inhabit a mediocre mud ball spinning around a very average star :nono: . The evidence (what little there is) indicates that life itself is favored, with no particular preference to any particular species. :rolleyes: The Creator seems to have started the whole shooting match, installed “free will” and sat back to observe. :phew: No where in any culture or any place in the world (or greater universe) is there signs that he has ever interfered with his creation. :pyth: We seem to think that we are the epitome of creation, God’s greatest work, but I rather doubt that he considers us as anything special. In comparison to him (and quite possibly other alien races) we are little more than microbes! Would we choose a particular species of microbe and attempt to communicate with it, give it sets of laws, or establish a plan to save the believers, rewarding them with paradise and punishing the non-believers with eternal torment? Why should one, that is greater that we can ever aspire to be, do such either? Is there a Creator – I vote a resounding “Possibly”. When science can show me that a universe can self-start, then I will become an Atheist. - Heimdall :yellow:

 

wow, can I plagiarize you on that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

wow, can I plagiarize you on that?

By all means, I just wish I had a copy of the original posting, it was a humorous explanation of how I saw Deism and the Creator. - Heimdall :yellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All that is said here is very profound to me. Animals don't worry about and they don't wonder if this is all there is. They are one with 'nature'. They are in that pre-thought state about who they are, which leads me into your response, dio, about your funny analogy to your dog. Dogs, or domesticated animals, that are around humans a lot can get depressed and suffer from anxiety. We tend to rub off on them! Humans are unique and I think this knowledge of 'ourself' has taken us away from being one with nature. We can't go back to the pre-thought state of animals, but maybe we can progress to a point that is similar by understanding that we also are not apart from nature and one with all that is (whatever that is). I think that whatever it is is what is refered to as 'god'. Not in the traditional sense, but in the sense of a life sustaining force.

 

I don't think it needs worship or desires it because that would limit it and give it a personality. What we have here, on this earth or in this universe or all of them, is 'It' and I think we are discovering many aspects of the way it works. I don't think we can ever know 'what' it is that is doing the work (forces of nature), but we can observe it's effects.

 

NBBTL...thank you, that was absolutely wonderful and I got a little choked up reading it. Our dog is so dependent on us and when DH gets home he gets all excited and wags his tail, he is totally dependent on us for his happiness. If the house is in a state of unrest he is, same with food. Our cats on the other hand are another story! They are so "natural" in how they act, if we aren't home, they could give a crap. If they're hungry and the bowls aren't full...a bird, mouse, grasshopper or other small animal will meet it's fate. Yet at the same time, they enjoy being pet every now and then when they feel like having us around.

 

Anyway, you really pepped me up tonight as I still struggle between "I don't know" and "I know there has to be something. I don't know what it is, but there is something." :-) Then add to that what Mythra said about nature and okay...I'm finished.

Thank you Serenity for making me feel good about you feeling good! I also have a dog and a cat (and a bird and a guinea pig and several fish!) and they are the same as yours. I just get tired of my cat bringing me mouse butts and bird bodies! My dog would never do such a thing! :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

your cat bringinng you christmas presents lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Serenity for making me feel good about you feeling good! I also have a dog and a cat (and a bird and a guinea pig and several fish!) and they are the same as yours. I just get tired of my cat bringing me mouse butts and bird bodies! My dog would never do such a thing! :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

your cat bringinng you christmas presents lol.

Isn't that nice of her? :twitch::grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.