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Goodbye Jesus

Satan's One Aim Is To Stop You Trusting God...


DavidL

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Do you have any evidence for the existence of the pagan "deities"?

 

*kaBONNG*

 

(Springy G leans on Her Clue-By-Four™ with one arm and waves with Her free hand.)  Hei there.  I'm a pagan deity.  Pleased to meet'cha... Not. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

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(Oh by the way, Jesus is Lord.  I can say Jesus is Lord as often as I wish.  My message must be from the Holy Spirit unless the Bible is wrong.)

 

Lord of what? 

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(Oh by the way, Jesus is Lord.  I can say Jesus is Lord as often as I wish.  My message must be from the Holy Spirit unless the Bible is wrong.)

 

Lord of what? 

 

 

Jesus is Lord of gay orgies.  

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Looking back to Genesis 3 it's very interesting to see how the devil worked his deception on Eve...

exactly how he still works today...!!

 

1. "Did God really say.."  - First he questions what God had said, causing Eve to doubt God's Word.. 

So today the Scriptures are challenged, and we are made to doubt their authenticity and reliability..

There is no mention of Satan anywhere in the Book of Genesis.

Satan is God's servant in the Old Testament.

If you think otherwise, please provide a single verse from the Old Testament that identifies Satan as disobeying a command from God.

Out of context imaginings don't count, I'd like to see an actual verse that says Satan is the enemy of God.

 

satan is the adversary of God. Adversaries of God disobey Him.

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"

(Zec 3:1-2)

 

There is no disobedience here.

First of all, this is a vision not an event.

Satan is man's accuser, his adversary.

His job in God's court is to act as prosecuting attorney.

God has made an exemption for Joshua which meant he will not hear accusations, much as a judge makes a blanket ruling prior to full testimony being given.

Joshua was the sinner who receives a special pardon.

 

Zech 3:3-4

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

 

Satan was not the sinner, he was the prosecuting attorney.

 

centauri:Christianity contradicts the scripture of the Old Testament.

 

OC: No it doesn't.

It most certainly does.

Salvation according to the Old Testament is based on works.

Each person can save themselves through proper action.

A human sin sacrifice is illegal according to God's law.

 

centauri: Isn't this the same God that regretted what he created, decided to fix it by flooding it, knowing ahead of time that his solution wouldn't work?

 

OC: Because God knew evil would exist does not make Him evil.

As pointed out by another poster, God creates evil (Isa 45:7).

That includes ethical evil, not simply calamity or disaster.

Wiping out a multitude of living beings, knowing ahead of time that it wouldn't solve the problem is inept or psychotic.

 

 

centauri: You're promoting Christian mythology.

There is no mention of Satan in Genesis, nor any mention of a devil.

Christians have invented their own version of God, one that pleases their senses.

 

OC: The serpent in Genesis was the adversary, which is exactly what the Bible refers to satan being.

You're projecting wishful thinking into the text.

If Satan was indeed the serpent then Satan would have been cursed to crawl on his belly.

Would you like to find a verse that says Satan crawled on his belly in the Book of Job (or any other scripture)?

Satan is one of God's many sons (plural), a servant of God.

 

 

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satan existed before God's revelation.

 

 

Mere assertion.

 

satan is a created being. he chose to be evil through his own free will choices. God does not create evil. evil results from the actions of free willed beings.

 

 

More mere assertions.

 

We are saved through our decision to accept Christ, not through any work we do. It's free.

 

 

And yet another mere assertion.

 

Shallow and hollow, but you already knew that.

 

Please be more entertaining than this.  I know you can do it.  I've seen it.  Show us more of your narcissism, your egotism and grandiosity.  That's funny stuff.

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Why was the tree placed in the Garden to begin with? That to me does not place God in a good light at all. Tell people to not eat from this certain tree yet place it in such a way that they see it and move around it all day every day. Furthermore, knowing full well they would eventually eat from it and all the shit that would follow mankind's descendants thousands of years later. Tell me, how is it possible to view God as being just and fair in this?

 

If i take two little kids and place them in a room and then put a loaded gun smack in the middle of the room and tell them not to touch it and then walked out, what kind of parent would i be? And God is often referred to as the loving heavenly father? You might say that fruit from a tree and a loaded gun are not the same and you would be right. Eating fruit from the tree evidently was one million times worse because mankind has been punished for thousands of years by it and people born a thousand years from now will be punished by it. The point is the tree, like the gun, should never have been there to begin with.

 

As far as Satan goes, why doesn't God snap his fingers or twitch his nose like on 'Bewitched' and just be off with Satan? Look at this long and drawn out fucking problem that God could have easily avoided by merely acting like God and making a change or two here and there. No Satan, no billions burning in hell, no punishments for eternity, no curses unto the umpteenth generation, etc. It seems pretty clear that since God does nothing to remedy the situation that this is exactly the situation he wants. A fucked up situation equals a fucked up God.

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Looking back to Genesis 3 it's very interesting to see how the devil worked his deception on Eve...

exactly how he still works today...!!

 

1. "Did God really say.."  - First he questions what God had said, causing Eve to doubt God's Word.. 

So today the Scriptures are challenged, and we are made to doubt their authenticity and reliability..

There is no mention of Satan anywhere in the Book of Genesis.

Satan is God's servant in the Old Testament.

If you think otherwise, please provide a single verse from the Old Testament that identifies Satan as disobeying a command from God.

Out of context imaginings don't count, I'd like to see an actual verse that says Satan is the enemy of God.

 

satan is the adversary of God. Adversaries of God disobey Him.

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"

(Zec 3:1-2)

 

There is no disobedience here.

First of all, this is a vision not an event.

Satan is man's accuser, his adversary.

His job in God's court is to act as prosecuting attorney.

God has made an exemption for Joshua which meant he will not hear accusations, much as a judge makes a blanket ruling prior to full testimony being given.

Joshua was the sinner who receives a special pardon.

 

Zech 3:3-4

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

 

Satan was not the sinner, he was the prosecuting attorney.

 

centauri:Christianity contradicts the scripture of the Old Testament.

 

OC: No it doesn't.

It most certainly does.

Salvation according to the Old Testament is based on works.

Each person can save themselves through proper action.

A human sin sacrifice is illegal according to God's law.

 

centauri: Isn't this the same God that regretted what he created, decided to fix it by flooding it, knowing ahead of time that his solution wouldn't work?

 

OC: Because God knew evil would exist does not make Him evil.

As pointed out by another poster, God creates evil (Isa 45:7).

That includes ethical evil, not simply calamity or disaster.

Wiping out a multitude of living beings, knowing ahead of time that it wouldn't solve the problem is inept or psychotic.

 

 

centauri: You're promoting Christian mythology.

There is no mention of Satan in Genesis, nor any mention of a devil.

Christians have invented their own version of God, one that pleases their senses.

 

OC: The serpent in Genesis was the adversary, which is exactly what the Bible refers to satan being.

You're projecting wishful thinking into the text.

If Satan was indeed the serpent then Satan would have been cursed to crawl on his belly.

Would you like to find a verse that says Satan crawled on his belly in the Book of Job (or any other scripture)?

Satan is one of God's many sons (plural), a servant of God.

 

 

 

Zec 3 is prophecy. When it occurs does not matter as the statement from God demonstrates the adversarial relationship. The Bible refers to satan as the adversary not man's adversary. Being the adversary he opposes God's will. You're groping.

 

satan was an accuser, but no where, no where, does the Old Testament portrait satan as a benevolent prosecutor. Being a prosecutor does not connote impartiality or righteousness in any way. It simply portrays an accusatorial role. Period. To carry the analogy further, prosecutors can and are disbarred for misconduct.

 

Furthermore God's revelation has been cumulative. The truth of God's plan is revealed in stages. There is nothing contradictory in this. There is nothing contradictory in having the Old Testament reveal certain aspects of God's truth and the New Testament continuing the revelation.

 

Salvation is not based on works. It is based on grace nd a fee gift from God.

 

Isa 45:7 is not moral evil. To say otherwise is simply an unfounded assertion.

 

The serpent clearly worked against God's will. he acted as the tempter and colluded in the sin eve participated in. Any honest person knows that a tempter or temptress is guilty also. I'm making a logical interpretation of Genesis. Just as you are when you claim satan as a "prosecutor". Many practising Jews certainly agree with me even if they don't agree on Christ.

 

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OC: Because God knew evil would exist does not make Him evil.

 

No - that, if your 'god' existed and could have set up a world without evil and chose to go ahead and let evil proliferate ANYWAY guaranteeing that the overwhelming majority of humans thorughout history would end up in hell afer lives of pain, suffering, and misery - THAT would sure as hell make it evil if it did exist.  To beilieve in a deity that allows humans to live in an evil world when it could place them in a world with NO evil, and call that deity 'good,' is the height of asinine absurdity.

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(do what you want - think for yourself)..

 

Most sensible thing any Christian here has ever said.  I do this already anyway, but thanks for the tip nonetheless.

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So DavidL, you are basing your statements off of the assumption that the Bible is true. I am curious, how do you know it is in fact true? In fact, how do you generally separate truth from falsehood?

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Furthermore God's revelation has been cumulative. The truth of God's plan is revealed in stages. There is nothing contradictory in this. There is nothing contradictory in having the Old Testament reveal certain aspects of God's truth and the New Testament continuing the revelation.

 

 

The Bible has been edited and reedited dozens of times by a steady stream of different religions.  The original source material came from polytheistic pagans who practiced human sacrifice.  Every religion that came along in the chain rejected the religion that came before it and then stole it's legacy and scriptures.  And yes that includes when the Christians came along and rejected the Old Testament to write the New Testament.  However the Christians were not a single religion but many different sects that competed against each other until Rome took over and exterminated all opposition.

 

God's revelation is whatever Rome decided it would be.

 

But the religious conflict and new versions of the Bible didn't stop there.  The fighting continues to this day. 

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(do what you want - think for yourself)..

 

Most sensible thing any Christian here has ever said.  I do this already anyway, but thanks for the tip nonetheless.

 

 

I don't think DavidL meant that as advise but rather as a description of rebellion against God.  To think for yourself is to be your own god or the ultimate sin.

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(do what you want - think for yourself)..

 

Most sensible thing any Christian here has ever said.  I do this already anyway, but thanks for the tip nonetheless.

 

 

I don't think DavidL meant that as advise but rather as a description of rebellion against God.  To think for yourself is to be your own god or the ultimate sin.

 

I know he didn't - I was just being facetious.  Wendyeaves.gif

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... Continuing the revelation... Hahaha, what a crock of bullshit.

 

"Well, you see guys, god only revealed some stuff to the Jews, then he revealed some extra juicy stuff to the Jesus cult, and THEN, in the Book of Mormon, he revealed even more... And THEN, in the book of scientologist quadlymuck, he reveals MORE of his plan... So you see guys, gid's word isn't really contradictory, he's just revealing different things at different times... Mmmmkay?"

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Zec 3 is prophecy. When it occurs does not matter as the statement from God demonstrates the adversarial relationship. The Bible refers to satan as the adversary not man's adversary. Being the adversary he opposes God's will. You're groping.

You've demonstrated yourself to be the biggest groper on this thread.

Satan is man's adversary.

Satan is man's accuser as Zech 3 clearly states.

 

Zech 3:1(RSV)

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

 

Satan is Job's accuser as well.

 

Job 1:9-11(RSV)

Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nought?

Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.”

 

It says nothing about Satan opposing God's will.

Satan accuses the character of Job and does nothing to him until God approves of the torture.

 

Satan serves as the prosecutor of men, the accuser of men.

Men are called sinners, not Satan.

Men are tested by Satan according to the will of God.

Show me exactly where Satan disobeys God in the story of Job.

Show me in the Old Testament exactly where Satan announces that he is the enemy of God.

Chapter and verse please.

 

satan was an accuser, but no where, no where, does the Old Testament portrait satan as a benevolent prosecutor. Being a prosecutor does not connote impartiality or righteousness in any way. It simply portrays an accusatorial role. Period. To carry the analogy further, prosecutors can and are disbarred for misconduct.

Satan tests the character of humans.

That's clearly illustrated in the Book of Job.

He does nothing to Job until God approves of Job being tested.

In fact, God recommends Job as the object for torture.

Satan also carried out God's will by inciting David to take a census.

 

Furthermore God's revelation has been cumulative. The truth of God's plan is revealed in stages. There is nothing contradictory in this. There is nothing contradictory in having the Old Testament reveal certain aspects of God's truth and the New Testament continuing the revelation.

There is no provision for a vicarious human sin sacrifice in God's law.

The sacrifice of Jesus contradicts the very rules for sacrifice that God laid down.

The plan for salvation in the New Testament contradicts the plan in the Old Testament.

Christianity is revisionist theology where it borrows elements from the Hebrew scriptures, discards what it doesn't like, and then makes up new rules that flat out contradict the mandates given in the Old Testament.

If you contend otherwise then show where God's law allows for an illegal sin sacrifice to atone for the sins of anyone.

Jesus didn't meet any of the requirements for a valid sin sacrifice.

 

Salvation is not based on works. It is based on grace nd a free gift from God.

It is most certainly based on works if the Old Testament is to be taken seriously, which you have no desire to do.

The recipe for salvation is clearly spelled out in Ezek 18:20-27 and it has nothing to do with Jesus.

Each person saves themselves by repenting and following the law.

Even Christian salvation is based on works, it's not a "free gift" at all.

One must take certain affirmative actions to be saved.

You must believe, repent, confess, be baptized, perform some sort of charity, and maintain belief in order to be saved.

The only way it can be free is if one is predestined by God.

You've already indicated you don't believe in predestination, instead asserting that universal free will exists.

Your abuse of the word "free" is staggering in both uses..."free gift" and "free will".

 

Isa 45:7 is not moral evil. To say otherwise is simply an unfounded assertion.

Yikes!

It's not at all unfounded.

 

Hebrew word "ra"

adj

bad, evil

bad, disagreeable, malignant

bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

evil, displeasing

bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

bad (of value)

worse than, worst (comparison)

sad, unhappy

evil (hurtful)

bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

in general, of persons, of thoughts

deeds, actions n m

evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

evil, distress, adversity

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical) n f

evil, misery, distress, injury

evil, misery, distress

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

 

Ethical evil is moral evil.

Furthermore, God declared in Isa 45:7 that he creates all things.

Evil didn't spawn itself and must ultimately emerge from the same source that created all things.

 

The serpent clearly worked against God's will. he acted as the tempter and colluded in the sin eve participated in. Any honest person knows that a tempter or temptress is guilty also. I'm making a logical interpretation of Genesis. Just as you are when you claim satan as a "prosecutor". Many practising Jews certainly agree with me even if they don't agree on Christ.

You're projecting onto Satan, assuming a conclusion based on popular mythology rather than logical interpretation.

The serpent isn't Satan.

Satan never appears in Genesis.

Are you going to show where Satan is crawling on his belly as a result of the curse given to the serpent?

Chapter and verse for that one please.

 

 

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"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."  - The Apostle Paul  

(2 Corinthians 11:3) 

 

Looking back to Genesis 3 it's very interesting to see how the devil worked his deception on Eve...

exactly how he still works today...!!

 

1. "Did God really say.."  - First he questions what God had said, causing Eve to doubt God's Word.. 

So today the Scriptures are challenged, and we are made to doubt their authenticity and reliability..

 

2.  "You surely will not die!"  - The blatant Lie that actually, on the face of it, seemed believable...

Again we find today that the truth of Scripture is out-rightly contradicted, in intellectual and philosophical terms that almost seem believable..

 

3. "For God knows..."  - The suggestion is made that God's motives are not pure..

Today also God is slandered and His motives made to look corrupt...

 

4. "...the tree was desirable to make one wise."  - In buying Satan's lie, the impression given was that this was a wise choice..

And so the same temptation is made to those who follow Jesus, to come out from the state of simple child-like dependence and trust in God (subjection to authority), and become your own god...(do what you want - think for yourself)..

 

 

I'm jumping in way late on this one, and I didn't read any of the posts, but the very first sentence of the post, a quote from Paul, makes me wonder, why is Paul afraid? It seems that he isn't operating in love when he writes this epistle, because perfect love casts out fear, right? Unless Paul didn't have the Spirit of God on this one, in which case, Ray Bradbury is just as good.

 

"Did God really say"  We don't know. Christians want to go back to "the original Hebrew" or "the original Greek" or whatever, and tell us what this or that verse or word 'could also mean'. So what did Biblegod really say?

 

How could a beast (Satan, the Devil, that old Dragon), at that time a talking serpent that didn't crawl on it's belly and eat dust, deceive the Very Perfection of God?

 

A serpent deceives that which was perfect and good and the very image image of the Creator, the Lord God Almighty. Right.

 

So then,. a cast out traitor can f*ck up all of God's wonderful and "good" creation with one short conversation about the fruit of a tree, but we mere humans that are born into sin are supposed to overcome, with the help of this same Creator.

 

OK, I get it. I'm all over the place here, but so is Genesis.

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Isa 45:7 is not moral evil. To say otherwise is simply an unfounded assertion.

No, you're projecting here - it is you who are doing unfounded assertions. English as well as foreign translations make most sense if it is understood as referring to (moral) evil, and even the Hebrew wording is very clear on referring to moral evil. What is more, we know that the branches of Judaism that did consider Isaiah a prophet also did consider God the creator of (moral) evil, unlike some Enochian branches of Judaism (who took books like 'the book of Enoch' seriously) - but even there most branches seem to have considered God the creator of (moral) evil as well. It is only really with Christianity that the idea that God didn't create evil appeared, and to that end very many translations substitute the word 'evil' there with words that don't fit the context at all, and hide the actual meaning of the text. Christians are fucking liars.

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Isa 45:7 is not moral evil. To say otherwise is simply an unfounded assertion.

 

 

 

You are confused.

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Brother Dave, you do realize you can jump in here anytime and offer rebuttals or defend your position, don't you?

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Brother Dave, you do realize you can jump in here anytime and offer rebuttals or defend your position, don't you?

 

He probably feels that he doesn't need to. OC is doing all of the work for him.

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Brother Dave, you do realize you can jump in here anytime and offer rebuttals or defend your position, don't you?

 

He probably feels that he doesn't need to. OC is doing all of the work for him.

 

 

Yeah, but I hate to see the guy not standing up for himself.  It seems so... cowardly.

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Brother Dave, you do realize you can jump in here anytime and offer rebuttals or defend your position, don't you?

 

He probably feels that he doesn't need to. OC is doing all of the work for him.

 

 

Yeah, but I hate to see the guy not standing up for himself.  It seems so... cowardly.

 

 

He hasn't been on since yesterday. Maybe if he came online today, he'd say something. It could be he just wanted to get as many responses as he could before saying anything. I don't know what's going on, really.

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Liar

 

Early in the Hebrew text 'satan' isn't even a name, it's a fucking title, a role played by one of God's 'court' if you will. it is "the satan" until much later one.

 

In polytheism, which Hebrews were apparently, early on, there are 'morality plays' all the time, acted out by the gods, or the gods and their helpers. It happens in Egyptian mythology, Greek Mythology, Norse mythology, Canaanite mythology, etc, etc, etc... and it happened in Hebrew mythology. THAT's why the OT says things like "let US.. blah blah blah". God (El, the father of the gods who was the original 'God' in the Bible.. a Canaanite deity and father of 70 gods, one of whom was Baal) is talking to his COURT. 

 

You can twist it every which way but if you are honest and look at the roots, and yes - the ancient Hebrew (which weirdly is JUST LIKE ancient Phoenician.. oh wait, it came out of that language) it's very clear... that God is the author of evil. God is the author of EVERYTHING... NOTHING happens without god, his/her will... and since it is the CREATOR, nothing exists if not for god.

 

Satan.. as a 'personification', came out of the syncretism of Zoroastrianism into Hebrew mythology.. i.e.: the PERSIANS. Satan as we know it is Ahriman, Azura Mazda's nemesis. Dualism is Zoroastrian and is not present in the early OT. Don't ya think that maybe god should have told his prophets that there was an evil power running around? Maybe he should have mentioned this to Abraham, Moses, Aaron? Noah? Anybody? He is silent on the subject for a very long time, and to his little buddies, the patriarchs. Does that make ANY SENSE AT ALL?  no. The Jews didn't even believe in an afterlife.. how does that work with your made-up mythology?

 

The rest we 'know' about satan is also syncretism: i.e.: Pan, Cerunnos, Loki, et al - the demonization of pagan deities.

 

In the early OT there is no concept of god having an adversary (much less one that is anywhere near the power of god), and the Hebrews would have thought the idea ludicrous. I think the Jews still do... but don't quote me on that.

 

It's one thing to believe a myth, it's another to lie about it.

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Brother Dave, you do realize you can jump in here anytime and offer rebuttals or defend your position, don't you?

 

He probably feels that he doesn't need to. OC is doing all of the work for him.

 

 

Yeah, but I hate to see the guy not standing up for himself.  It seems so... cowardly.

 

 

He hasn't been on since yesterday. Maybe if he came online today, he'd say something. It could be he just wanted to get as many responses as he could before saying anything. I don't know what's going on, really.

 

Maybe he thinks we worship Satan and eat babys or something and scared him off.

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