spiritrider2013 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 One thing I just realized is that xtianity does not promote personal growth.In fact it actually promotes denial and keeps one from developing positive change. The bible says that if you believe in God through Jesus your sins will be forgiven if you follow the prescribed methods provided by the bible and church leaders. "It will be like your sins never happened". What this doctrine is actually doing is promising absolution for offences. It takes away from the offender responsibilty for their actions. From my own personal experience, part of the reason I turned to the church was because I was dealing with some lifelong issues and I needed help. I never recieved the help I needed. I was in the church for several years and I was told that my sins were forgiven and that I in turn should also forgive those who hurt me. So, I did.and I become clinically depressed. Anyways,fast forward to the present. I eventually began to deal with reality. I had to look at my life and take personal responsibility for myself and I began to learn how to deal with my issues. No one else could do this for me. Self awarenness is what actually saved me .I dealt with the past through cognitive behavior theories. I realize now, that I am the one in the drivers seat of my life. I am in control of what I learn and how I live. The message I learned from this experience was this : that when you join a church, a metaphorical garment is placed on you and that is what you become-the person you were(are) ceases to exist. However, the real person is still underneath that garment. The reason I bring this up is because I often wonder why there is so much corruption and sexual mis-conduct in organized religion and this is how I understand it. What do you think? If you can expand on this concept please do so. Thanks for reading this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xliar Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Makes perfect sense to me S.R.2013. Never heard it put that way but yea it helps explain the vast number of metaphorical garments in prison, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Denial most definitely. It is logically impossible to believe in Christianity and take those beliefs seriously without at least some level of denial. Misconduct? This one is more tricky. Sure, the concept of God forgiving you for everything just by being a Xian can be used by assholes to justify their selfish behavior. However non believers can find justification to be amoral pricks as well, such as "well you only live once!" can be used to justify being a douchebag just as much as it can justify not being a douchebag. Shitty people will find justifications for being shitty no matter what they believe in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 30, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I agree. The church cannot actually help you in reality. So they give you that metaphorical garment and claim you are forgiven. It's all pretend. So when you insist that you really do have a problem -- whether mental health, horrible marriage, other serious issues -- they pretty much ignore you. Xians pretend that everything is ok because they are supposed to pretend everything is ok because they have to pretend that jesus/god made everything ok but that is NOT ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milesaway Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Based on what I've experienced in my few years of church hopping, I'd say the whole church environment is based on denial and misconduct. Denial at the fact that a lot of people have doubts about this whole sham, but instead of being honest and dealing with them face up, they would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend everything's A-OK. Denial at the misconduct that happens more often than one might expect. It's not happening at MY church, it's one rogue church, one rogue church leader, one rogue diocese, the victim is crazy and did something to make god angry, if it was happening here I'd know about it, and so on. Misconduct encompasses a range of wrongdoings, from theft to sexual assault. When you're in an environment that basically tells you you're entitled to only the best and that nothing's ever your fault, you can pretty much get away with all sorts of shit. That's assuming one had zero moral compass whatsoever to begin with. Then when one of their brethren violates you in any way, they act like it never happened or they lie to you and say they'll deal with it (which usually amounts to sweeping it under the rug). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sissi Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Christianity is an easy issue that says because God is full of grace he forgives you. But I'm wondering how many chistians are really honest when they repent ? Look at this you hurt someone, you repent and you dont need to apologize because God forgave you. There is no real responsability. and yes your past life does not exist anymore like it is in cults. You are split in two peaces, your past life and your christian life. Christians also live in deni when they take the bibe verse in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that says you are a new creature and the past has gone. They are against psychologists because they help people to understand their childhood and dealing with problems that occur in the present. Psy bring up something human when it is not the case regarding cults. Cults bring guilty and fear. For me this is a big red flag and it can bring up serious damage in your life and particulary for children who were born in the cult and do not know their true idendity. Denial is one of characteristics of cult. Some give also a new name to you. It looks so weird. The worse is you don't realize yourself all that when you are in mind control. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 My adoptive parents have never made the efforts to improve themselves morally- and so much improvement is needed- because Christ has already forgiven their sins and prepared them eternal mansions in the sky, even though there are countless "heathens" more deserving if there were any such thing as eternal life. As a "heathen" myself I have seen that I am much more conscious of my treatment of other people than my Christian a-parents. They greatly enjoy the gossip game. They have no moral feelings about ripping other people, usually church people, to shreds behind their backs and then showing up to church on a sunday smiling and small talking with the same people acting like their best friends. This is the kind of behaviour that Christianity encourages. I remember when I was a little one in sunday school and was very scrupulous about morality. I was one of the few people who was genuinely interested in being a good person- even though I was looking in all the wrong places for moral guidance. Anyways one time I had been feeling some moral guilt about wrongdoings and the teacher instructed me not to worry about it. And the fact that I was worried about my own conscience, was a "sin"! Because I was not trusting god to have paid for my sins! Don't bother even trying to make things right, because god has already cast your sins as far away as east is from the west. So according to my teacher, the fact that I wanted to be a better person morally was wrong! Imagine what kind of damage that teaching can do to a person. I've seen it first hand in my a-parents, and it is a horror. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Denial, misconduct, irresponsibility and apathy. Yes, the church promotes all of those. ↓sarcasm↓ But its the homosexuals and atheists that are what's wrong with this world... ^sarcasm^ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenT Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Christianity is an easy issue that says because God is full of grace he forgives you. But I'm wondering how many chistians are really honest when they repent ? Look at this you hurt someone, you repent and you dont need to apologize because God forgave you. There is no real responsability. and yes your past life does not exist anymore like it is in cults. You are split in two peaces, your past life and your christian life. Christians also live in deni when they take the bibe verse in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that says you are a new creature and the past has gone. They are against psychologists because they help people to understand their childhood and dealing with problems that occur in the present. Psy bring up something human when it is not the case regarding cults. Cults bring guilty and fear. For me this is a big red flag and it can bring up serious damage in your life and particulary for children who were born in the cult and do not know their true idendity. Denial is one of characteristics of cult. Some give also a new name to you. It looks so weird. The worse is you don't realize yourself all that when you are in mind control. Many Christians I've met disparage both psychology and education--questioning your upbringing, building your own identity and gaining criticial thinking skills were neither valued nor encouraged. One thing I just realized is that xtianity does not promote personal growth.In fact it actually promotes denial and keeps one from developing positive change. The bible says that if you believe in God through Jesus your sins will be forgiven if you follow the prescribed methods provided by the bible and church leaders. "It will be like your sins never happened". What this doctrine is actually doing is promising absolution for offences. It takes away from the offender responsibilty for their actions. From my own personal experience, part of the reason I turned to the church was because I was dealing with some lifelong issues and I needed help. I never recieved the help I needed. I was in the church for several years and I was told that my sins were forgiven and that I in turn should also forgive those who hurt me. So, I did.and I become clinically depressed. Anyways,fast forward to the present. I eventually began to deal with reality. I had to look at my life and take personal responsibility for myself and I began to learn how to deal with my issues. No one else could do this for me. Self awarenness is what actually saved me .I dealt with the past through cognitive behavior theories. I realize now, that I am the one in the drivers seat of my life. I am in control of what I learn and how I live. The message I learned from this experience was this : that when you join a church, a metaphorical garment is placed on you and that is what you become-the person you were(are) ceases to exist. However, the real person is still underneath that garment. The reason I bring this up is because I often wonder why there is so much corruption and sexual mis-conduct in organized religion and this is how I understand it. What do you think? If you can expand on this concept please do so. Thanks for reading this. I think you are on to something. In my tradition, there was such a strong emphasis placed on forgiveness, which IMO is a shallow response to complex issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodsy Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I agree. The church cannot actually help you in reality. So they give you that metaphorical garment and claim you are forgiven. It's all pretend. So when you insist that you really do have a problem -- whether mental health, horrible marriage, other serious issues -- they pretty much ignore you. Xians pretend that everything is ok because they are supposed to pretend everything is ok because they have to pretend that jesus/god made everything ok but that is NOT ok. Christianity became a fantasy world for me. As I look back now, nothing about it was real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Rach -- that is fucking crazy on their part! I had to read your post a few times to untwist their "logic." Between your a-parents and the so-called teacher at that church -- aaargh. You were a good kid and self-aware and serious about morality, and they were flipping bozos. I cannot imagine what that would do to a child's mind. That is absolutely reprehensible on their part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I certainly think Christianity promotes denial. The Bible flat out denies scientific evidence in many ways. Yet most Christians pretend this isn't so, or they twist the text to make it possible to reconcile it (in their minds). As far as misconduct goes, yes, I think the doctrine of the atonement does not contribute to insight regarding the self or any moral effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MadameX Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 As far as the misconduct, could it be 'moral self-licensing'? http://groups.psych.northwestern.edu/medin/documents/SachdevaSinningSaints.pdf "the subconscious phenomenon whereby increased confidence and security in one’s self-image or self-concept tends to make that individual worry less about the consequences of subsequent immoral behavior and, therefore, more likely to make immoral choices and act immorally." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tollo Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm glad others think this is what is happening, too. For a long time, I had no concept of taking responsibility for my life and my identity and my success. I assumed that god would make everything happen for me, if he didn't it wasn't in his will, and if things were going too well, I was afraid he would take them away from me because I was idolizing this things and I didn't love him enough. It made me very insecure and I had no self-efficacy. I don't know about morals, I mean that seems to vary a lot. But definitely I think the church promotes doing nothing about your life, denying your internal and external problems. I always thought the solution to everything was More Jesus and when Jesus didn't do it, it was because I was a major sinner and the things I wanted were things I shouldn't want. It's guaranteeing failure. Part of the reason I got out of Christianity was that my life decisions were making me so miserable I said, "fuck it. For as long as is necessary, I refuse to condemn myself as a sinner and I will take non-religious approaches to fixing my problems." It worked beautifully, I'm a genuinely happy person now and I like making others feel happy. The proof is in the pudding! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xliar Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I'm glad others think this is what is happening, too. For a long time, I had no concept of taking responsibility for my life and my identity and my success. I assumed that god would make everything happen for me, if he didn't it wasn't in his will, and if things were going too well, I was afraid he would take them away from me because I was idolizing this things and I didn't love him enough. It made me very insecure and I had no self-efficacy. I don't know about morals, I mean that seems to vary a lot. But definitely I think the church promotes doing nothing about your life, denying your internal and external problems. I always thought the solution to everything was More Jesus and when Jesus didn't do it, it was because I was a major sinner and the things I wanted were things I shouldn't want. It's guaranteeing failure. Part of the reason I got out of Christianity was that my life decisions were making me so miserable I said, "fuck it. For as long as is necessary, I refuse to condemn myself as a sinner and I will take non-religious approaches to fixing my problems." It worked beautifully, I'm a genuinely happy person now and I like making others feel happy. The proof is in the pudding! I absolutely love this comment Tollo. Especialy the More jesus part, what an excellent way of putting their fucked-up line of reasoning. And the self condemnation garbage,,you know what??ME TOO!! And PS it made me happy to read this. Thanks alot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaitingInfinity Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I totally agree with what has been said here. In my fundie years, I remember doing wrong things. I didn't want to tell anyone about them because I was ashamed. So I would always just pray to Jebus and his luv would take them away and I wouldn't have to tell anybody about them. Yep, I just wiped my hands clean on Jebus' robe of blood and tried to forget. Me forgetting was the hardest part. All those songs about Jebus forgetting your sins so you should too. But my memory seems to be better than his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts