Amethyst Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 i dont want to be an athiest tho isnt their any other alternative? Of course. You could be Agnostic, Deist, Pagan, Buddhist, New Ager, or what have you. I don't hear anyone saying that you have to be an atheist. I'm agnostic, btw. And I really don't care if other people want to follow a religion, as long as they don't shove it down my throat like the Christians do. Each to their own. However, if they do shove their religion down my throat like Christians do and insist that I believe them and follow their religion, then I'm going to insist on proof. Because I don't blindly follow what other people say anymore. I'm through with that. I will follow my own path, wherever that may lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 why do some people on here talk like its stupid to have a religion some posts iv seen on this forum talk like your mentally ill or something if you think anything but the way athiests think. it really bugs me sometimes and thats why i can see what adriannas mad about. but i guess everyones got a right to their opinions. i dont want to be an athiest tho isnt their any other alternative? Of course. You could be Agnostic, Deist, Pagan, Buddhist, New Ager, or what have you. I don't hear anyone saying that you have to be an atheist. I'm agnostic, btw. And I really don't care if other people want to follow a religion, as long as they don't shove it down my throat like the Christians do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Well, I think because blindly believing in something when there's no evidence to believe in it isn't exactly the wisest choice you can make. But as long as your friend doesn't insist that we believe as she does, that's fine. It is when people start insisting on everyone believing in their religion that it becomes a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 does not having evidence prove something dont exist? i just think its impossible that all humans have all the answers. as big as the universe is their is no way any on on earth can have it all figured out. this earth is like a grain of sand on the beach in the universe. were like little hermit crabs exploring the beach when it comes to exploring the universe. theirs just no way we have all the answers. i dont say i have all the answers or facts i just dont like people talking like im stupid for having ideas. but i guess i just have to accept the fact people feel that way. Well, I think because blindly believing in something when there's no evidence to believe in it isn't exactly the wisest choice you can make. But as long as your friend doesn't insist that we believe as she does, that's fine. It is when people start insisting on everyone believing in their religion that it becomes a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 does not having evidence prove something dont exist? No, which is why I am an agnostic and not an atheist. But that doesn't mean I will blindly accept whatever people tell me, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 i just think its impossible that all humans have all the answers. Yeah, but stop and think about that a minute. Where else are you going to get any answers, if not from yourself or another human? Even if one of those pagan gods came flying out of your insense smoke and shook your hand, why would you place any more trust in beings so unfamiliar, than you would in yourself or others? I think that is because these beings, from god to the devil, actually ARE parts of us. Fantasy parts of us that we ascribe our actual, potential, and wished for talents, powers, and abilities. I think that you are yearning for an expression of a sense of wonder and awe that religion once provided for you. We all share that same need, some satisfy it in different ways. For instance, many people are provided that expression by art they create, or appreciate. Some by science, in drawing and appreciating the elegance of accurate equations, or the complex workings of the body, (etc.). I see you having a conflict with your logical side, which would have you readily agree with the first paragraph above; and your intuitive side, which wants to develop and experience a true sense of meaning in your life by using your imagination to experience things beyond the everyday smallness of our lives and see as much of the "big picture" as possible. I think that if you developed an interest in any, all or a similar pursuitI mentioned you could have yout cake and eat it too by experiencing a lifetime of new learnings, in wondrous imagary, without sacraficing ypur common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 does not having evidence prove something dont exist?..... No, but it gives me no reason to believe that whatever you have no evidence for does exist. You can't "prove" that there isn't an invisible unicorn stuffed in the trunk of my car, but would you just believe that one exists there, anyway? willybilly30, a few points: First, not everyone is going to believe what you believe. I have to live in a world where there are many people who believe in one or more deities. I happen to think they're incorrect, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape over that. Why is it so important that other people believe as you do? Second, it's not my purpose, or anyone else's purpose, to change your mind about your beliefs. As an atheist, I don't hate all religions, just the nasty monotheistic ones that have caused so much misery in this world. If you have doubts about what you believe, why would getting me to agree with you resolve these doubts? That makes no sense to me. Third, I wouldn't let other people's words get under your skin so easily. Plus, you have to remember that the OP's tone and demeanor was arrogant, condescending, and combative, so of course that was going to generate an unpleasant response. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 And to think I assumed that, by leaving Christianity, doctrinal arguments would be a thing of the past! Proof=amassing evidence by repeatable experimentation and observation, from which conclusions are drawn, and theories are developed. Theories are built on the most sensible, obvious explanations for whatever subject is being studied. Proofs and theories are not set in stone; if new evidence arises and, after strenuous examination, is found to be correct in influencing the previous conclusions, theories and their proofs may change. For those of you of a more scientific mind, is this a correct assessment of proof and theory? I agree with an early post, where is was stated that much of the problem with theory is that there is a difference between what scientists call theory (what I tried to, and hopefully did, explain in my above definition), and what the average person in the street calls theory (a guess or assumption). A lot of confusion could be cleared up if this meaning of theory and proof could be more well known. As to the Atheist vs. Believer-in-whatever fray that popped up: sometimes people, whether they are atheist or not, come on pretty strong. It might be your own interpretation of their comments that triggers a reaction, or it really might be an overly powerful push to show whatever the poster thinks. We all do it sometimes. Can we all try to keep it at a discussion level, not a raised voice argument? And please be gentle with people no matter what level of spirituality (or lack of such) they are at. I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine. HaHa! That's hallarious! I think I was a fluffly bunny too. And you made some good points. We all have to remember that in reading anything here it's very easy to misunterpret the attitude of the writer. Everyone has had their posts misunderstood before. I tried to avoid that in my comments by trying to address a goal, rather than split hairs over what has been said. Oh well, misunderstandings will happen....Where did you go, willy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine. HaHa! That's hallarious! I think I was a fluffly bunny too. And you made some good points. We all have to remember that in reading anything here it's very easy to misunterpret the attitude of the writer. Everyone has had their posts misunderstood before. I tried to avoid that in my comments by trying to address a goal, rather than split hairs over what has been said. Oh well, misunderstandings will happen....Where did you go, willy? Heh, I don't think I ever went through the fluffy bunny stage. I think I stayed in the morose crocodile stage until I couldn't stand it any more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 *Raises hand* I tried the fluffy bunny thing for a while, too. And I got tired of it. I think it's a necessary stage for some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 i like the idea of the gods and goddesses being a part of me if thats what you meant. i have a strong spiritual side i love studying religions i like thinking about them, i like meditating and doing rituals i just dont want to throw it away. if its all fantasy fine itll be no diffrent than people whp play dungeons and dragons i enjoy it. but im starting to see it as a maybe im wrong maybe im right i dont know i guess the agnostic i dont know idea seems to fit. i know im guess i know i may or may not be right i accept that fact for example under my avatar in the gods section it says my idea of the creator i hope exists. i like you all i havent nothing against yall but im not athiest and i dont think i ever will be its just not in me. i just think its impossible that all humans have all the answers. Yeah, but stop and think about that a minute. Where else are you going to get any answers, if not from yourself or another human? Even if one of those pagan gods came flying out of your insense smoke and shook your hand, why would you place any more trust in beings so unfamiliar, than you would in yourself or others? I think that is because these beings, from god to the devil, actually ARE parts of us. Fantasy parts of us that we ascribe our actual, potential, and wished for talents, powers, and abilities. I think that you are yearning for an expression of a sense of wonder and awe that religion once provided for you. We all share that same need, some satisfy it in different ways. For instance, many people are provided that expression by art they create, or appreciate. Some by science, in drawing and appreciating the elegance of accurate equations, or the complex workings of the body, (etc.). I see you having a conflict with your logical side, which would have you readily agree with the first paragraph above; and your intuitive side, which wants to develop and experience a true sense of meaning in your life by using your imagination to experience things beyond the everyday smallness of our lives and see as much of the "big picture" as possible. I think that if you developed an interest in any, all or a similar pursuitI mentioned you could have yout cake and eat it too by experiencing a lifetime of new learnings, in wondrous imagary, without sacraficing ypur common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 am i sounding like im wanting to convert everyone to paganism cause that was definately not what i was trying to do. i was trying to point out theirs no proof for or against anything so why bash people about it. too me its just a circular argument going around and a round. No, but it gives me no reason to believe that whatever you have no evidence for does exist. You can't "prove" that there isn't an invisible unicorn stuffed in the trunk of my car, but would you just believe that one exists there, anyway? willybilly30, a few points: its not important if you think im correct or not. your being freindly about this i have no problem with a freindly disagreement. but some people on here are just mean about it and enrage me. First, not everyone is going to believe what you believe. I have to live in a world where there are many people who believe in one or more deities. I happen to think they're incorrect, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape over that. Why is it so important that other people believe as you do? im not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with me i just dont want to be called ignorant and all those other names just cause i am not an athiest. you have never done this but some around here have. intolerance is a bad thing got any suggestions on how to fix it? Second, it's not my purpose, or anyone else's purpose, to change your mind about your beliefs. As an atheist, I don't hate all religions, just the nasty monotheistic ones that have caused so much misery in this world. If you have doubts about what you believe, why would getting me to agree with you resolve these doubts? That makes no sense to me. i know she got mad cause of the intolerance of some people i hope she can get it worked out and i think reading the third part of this post would be good advice for her and i will give it too her. i wish more athiests would take your example then we wouldnt have these kind of problems. Third, I wouldn't let other people's words get under your skin so easily. Plus, you have to remember that the OP's tone and demeanor was arrogant, condescending, and combative, so of course that was going to generate an unpleasant response. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.... excog i noticed under your avatar it says taoist with eclectic flavor. how do you handle intolerant posts? does it piss you off when someone says religion is dumb or people who think theirs a supernatural are morons. As to the Atheist vs. Believer-in-whatever fray that popped up: sometimes people, whether they are atheist or not, come on pretty strong. It might be your own interpretation of their comments that triggers a reaction, or it really might be an overly powerful push to show whatever the poster thinks. We all do it sometimes. Can we all try to keep it at a discussion level, not a raised voice argument? And please be gentle with people no matter what level of spirituality (or lack of such) they are at. I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine. where did i go? the grocerie store, paid bills, bought a simsons dvd with a gift card, eat a hamburger at the park then came back here. the writer seemed to express his opinion pretty well. I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine. HaHa! That's hallarious! I think I was a fluffly bunny too. And you made some good points. We all have to remember that in reading anything here it's very easy to misunterpret the attitude of the writer. Everyone has had their posts misunderstood before. I tried to avoid that in my comments by trying to address a goal, rather than split hairs over what has been said. Oh well, misunderstandings will happen....Where did you go, willy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 "i have a strong spiritual side i love studying religions i like thinking about them, i like meditating and doing rituals i just dont want to throw it away. if its all fantasy fine itll be no diffrent than people whp play dungeons and dragons i enjoy it. but im starting to see it as a maybe im wrong maybe im right" I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as you can look at it objectively and see its all/mostly fantasy. Everyone entertains fantasies now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 excog i noticed under your avatar it says taoist with eclectic flavor. how do you handle intolerant posts? does it piss you off when someone says religion is dumb or people who think theirs a supernatural are morons. I'm not Taoist in the religious sense; I like what I've read of Taoist philosophy. Taoism has been described as "the watercourse way", kind of a "go with the flow" view of life. It seeks balance, recognizing both good and bad exist, and both are equally a part of life. This is expressed in the Yin-Yang symbol. I don't usually get "pissed off" at posters' comments, unless it's something totally hateful and insulting...which I don't think has happened to me here. If and when it does happen, I'd have to remember to center myself, pull myself back from the reaction that was drawn out of me, and re-establish myself in the present moment. If you allow someone to push your buttons and you react to it, you are actually giving them control of you. Everyone has an opinion, and some people are going to make damn sure you know what it is! Accept that people are at different points in their life, and continue along your own path. Though as an ex-Christian, I still find that difficult to do when dealing with Jesus freaks! I'm not perfect! OK, group hug everybody!!! Ooops...think I'm going fluffy bunny again! Balance, Ex-COG, balance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 id rather say maybe it is maybe it isnt but this is what im going with. maybe the creator is just an idea in my head or maybe it isnt but im not killing the idea. "i have a strong spiritual side i love studying religions i like thinking about them, i like meditating and doing rituals i just dont want to throw it away. if its all fantasy fine itll be no diffrent than people whp play dungeons and dragons i enjoy it. but im starting to see it as a maybe im wrong maybe im right" I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as you can look at it objectively and see its all/mostly fantasy. Everyone entertains fantasies now and again. cool spinning ying yang symbol. its hard not to get mad and react how to you center yourself and go in the present moment. do you have a meditation you do? what does fluffy bunny mean everyone keeps saying it does it mean your being too nice or something. I'm not Taoist in the religious sense; I like what I've read of Taoist philosophy. Taoism has been described as "the watercourse way", kind of a "go with the flow" view of life. It seeks balance, recognizing both good and bad exist, and both are equally a part of life. This is expressed in the Yin-Yang symbol. I don't usually get "pissed off" at posters' comments, unless it's something totally hateful and insulting...which I don't think has happened to me here. If and when it does happen, I'd have to remember to center myself, pull myself back from the reaction that was drawn out of me, and re-establish myself in the present moment. If you allow someone to push your buttons and you react to it, you are actually giving them control of you. Everyone has an opinion, and some people are going to make damn sure you know what it is! Accept that people are at different points in their life, and continue along your own path. Though as an ex-Christian, I still find that difficult to do when dealing with Jesus freaks! I'm not perfect! OK, group hug everybody!!! Ooops...think I'm going fluffy bunny again! Balance, Ex-COG, balance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Hi willybilly30, I'd just ignore them. Nobody here is "perfect," and everyone changes with time. Give them the time and space to grow and mature. I know some of the crazy things I believed in 10, 20 years ago, even after I had deconverted; I also know some of the attitudes that I had back then. I don't believe those things any more, and my attitudes have mellowed out a bit since then. I don't think I'm alone in these experiences. I know that this sounds hard, but it's easier than getting bent out of shape about what other people think. You can't control what other people are going to do, but you can control how their behavior affects you. Again, just my 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 yea i might as well ignore them it dont really solve anything to argue about it. their going to think what ever they want to think about me no matter what i say anyway. Hi willybilly30, I'd just ignore them. Nobody here is "perfect," and everyone changes with time. Give them the time and space to grow and mature. I know some of the crazy things I believed in 10, 20 years ago, even after I had deconverted; I also know some of the attitudes that I had back then. I don't believe those things any more, and my attitudes have mellowed out a bit since then. I don't think I'm alone in these experiences. I know that this sounds hard, but it's easier than getting bent out of shape about what other people think. You can't control what other people are going to do, but you can control how their behavior affects you. Again, just my 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssel Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 It might be your own interpretation of their comments that triggers a reaction, or it really might be an overly powerful push to show whatever the poster thinks. We all do it sometimes. Can we all try to keep it at a discussion level, not a raised voice argument? And please be gentle with people no matter what level of spirituality (or lack of such) they are at. I, too, went through a "fluffy bunny" stage, and survived just fine.Hear Hear !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 As much I sympathize with the original poster of this thread, I cannot help but think that if a class fails in a lesson it is the teacher's fault, not the students. Even the greatest and most evident truths are lost if the teacher cannot speak in a language the students can understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Amplifier Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 No one can prove what they believe to be true, and in saying that anyone is wrong for feeling about something one way is wrong, let me ask you this, can any of us really prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what we feel to be true, really is? I admit that, it's true, just look back over what you have read. it's obvious. No one can prove what they believe is true. You admit it's obviously true. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 im starting to feel like the thread hijacker here lol she told me shed probally be banned after she ranted. soon as she gets online i can tell her the good news and she can answer the questions you are asking about her posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 im starting to feel like the thread hijacker here lol she told me shed probally be banned after she ranted. soon as she gets online i can tell her the good news and she can answer the questions you are asking about her posts. We don't ban people willybilly unless they're being really really annoying. I have no questions about her post, I think it's stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 well whyd you bring it up then? their anything you dont think is stupid? we can always ignore people that annoy us to death like you for example. what a good idea bye bye I have no questions about her post, I think it's stupid.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 well whyd you bring it up then? their anything you dont think is stupid? we can always ignore people that annoy us to death like you for example. what a good idea bye bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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