No More Children For The Ungodly Atheist.

[mydisplayname]

So the wife (fundie) and I (in the closet atheist) discussed the possibility of having another child. 

 

Her specific version of the delusion practices infant baptism. With our current son I was still a believer and we got him baptized as was expected, but I don't feel comfortable doing that as an Atheist. They can do whatever they want, but I don't want to be a part of it.  I told her this and I guess that stopped any further discussion of the topic.

 

The baptism itself isn't so bad. I can stand there and pretend as I don't mind lying to god. He doesn't exist so it won't bother him. I'll lie to santa clause as well if required of me. 

 

My problem is with the pastor coming to our house beforehand to ensure we understand the importance of our promise. This guy is making money off of peoples ignorance. Whether he himself is delusional as well is besides the point. He's going to come into my house and preach to me the importance of his specific delusion. He is going to ask me direct questions and I'm not going to be able to hide my disgust and lie with a straight face.

 

What does that mean? It means I'm not having any more children. Having another child will mean I have to come out of the closet so to speak. No more children for the ungodly atheist.

[Mimimom]

Congratulations? LoL. Just kidding. I'm not having anymore children either...although I already have two. I have been thinking about this topic lately, and was actually going to start a thread about it, asking the question should we all stop having children?

I already had my two children before my deconversion, and I am worried about my fundie family( who does not yet know) trying to indoctrinate them. My mother has already sent me a salvation chart for my 3 year old which outlines the path to heaven and away from hell! My brother and sister in law sent my 3 year old a set of books as his bday present called the Answer books...from the creation museum...they are appropriate for a 7-9 year old level. It's pretty ridiculous. I would not bring another child into this mess! 

 

Another thing I have been thinking about is that when you create a new life, you also create the potential for pain and suffering where none existed before. I love my two children more than anything and they are my entire world. But now when I look at them and wonder what life holds for them, I have the perspective that there is no loving god to lead and care for them. Will they have the great life I wish and hope for them...or will it be filled with hardships and suffering? Kind of a negative outlook, I know, but these are the things I think about post deconversion. I wonder how I would feel about having children if I had deconverted before having them. 

 

Are you and your wife on the same page about it? If she really wants another child maybe she would need to compromise and agree not to insist on doing the infant baptism or anything else that would put you in an uncomfortable situation. This kind of thing can cause alot of pain and stress in a marriage when spouses don't agree. I have a friend who is a fundie and her husband became an atheist shortly after they were married, before they had gotten to the point of considering children. She desperately wants to be a mother, but he is pretty firm on not wanting to bring children into the situation. I feel for them, that's a tough situation. 

[MerryG]

Ugh. Disgusting situation. How is your wife taking your view on this? And would the pastor actually refuse to baptise the child if only your wife was willing to sit still for all those questions and promises?

 

I know part of the issue is that you're not ready to come out of the closet to the pastor. But what if you just (semi-honestly) said you were having doubts and could not participate in those pre-baptism talks but didn't want to stand in the way of your wife having the baby baptised?

[DeadTOm]

The whole idea of infant baptism is asinine. Baptism is a choice that someone makes, a symbol of their decision to become a christian. An infant is not capable of making such a decision in the first place and parents have no way of guaranteeing that their child will become a christian or stay a christian.

 

You and your wife would be making promises that you have no way to guarantee.

[midniterider]

So the wife (fundie) and I (in the closet atheist) discussed the possibility of having another child. 

 

Her specific version of the delusion practices infant baptism. With our current son I was still a believer and we got him baptized as was expected, but I don't feel comfortable doing that as an Atheist. They can do whatever they want, but I don't want to be a part of it.  I told her this and I guess that stopped any further discussion of the topic.

 

The baptism itself isn't so bad. I can stand there and pretend as I don't mind lying to god. He doesn't exist so it won't bother him. I'll lie to santa clause as well if required of me. 

 

My problem is with the pastor coming to our house beforehand to ensure we understand the importance of our promise. This guy is making money off of peoples ignorance. Whether he himself is delusional as well is besides the point. He's going to come into my house and preach to me the importance of his specific delusion. He is going to ask me direct questions and I'm not going to be able to hide my disgust and lie with a straight face.

 

What does that mean? It means I'm not having any more children. Having another child will mean I have to come out of the closet so to speak. No more children for the ungodly atheist.

 

What is the point of having a child? Another little soul for Jebus? Or someone to love and raise and enjoy...well, until they're 13 anyway. :-)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm not meaning to overstep any boundaries here, faceahem, but I wonder if there might be something deeper than the baptism thing going on here.

[mydisplayname]

The whole idea of infant baptism is asinine. Baptism is a choice that someone makes, a symbol of their decision to become a christian. An infant is not capable of making such a decision in the first place and parents have no way of guaranteeing that their child will become a christian or stay a christian.

 

You and your wife would be making promises that you have no way to guarantee.

 

In this version of Christianity we only promise to brainwash the offspring.

[mydisplayname]

So it's 4AM and this is what's keeping me awake this fine Thursday morning.

 

I'm not meaning to overstep any boundaries here, faceahem, but I wonder if there might be something deeper than the baptism thing going on here.

 

Please go ahead and overstep them Professor. I'm an avid reader to anything you post. Are you hinting that I might not actually want more children? Suznhynes summarised it nicely for me.

 

Another thing I have been thinking about is that when you create a new life, you also create the potential for pain and suffering where none existed before. I love my two children more than anything and they are my entire world. But now when I look at them and wonder what life holds for them, I have the perspective that there is no loving god to lead and care for them. Will they have the great life I wish and hope for them...or will it be filled with hardships and suffering? Kind of a negative outlook, I know, but these are the things I think about post deconversion.

 

I've just had a look at my two year son sleeping soundly. How great life is when you're two years old. It's not always going to be like that for him though. There's is going to be pain and suffering.

 

There are so many people on this planet already. We all consume and at what point do we as mankind take a step back and realise there's too many of us? And then what? There's nowhere else to go. No more continents to populate. We're going to keep building smaller and smaller houses and eating things that before we would never have considered as food.

 

I know not having another child isn't going to make these problems go away, but at least I won't be adding to them.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So it's 4AM and this is what's keeping me awake this fine Thursday morning.

 

I'm not meaning to overstep any boundaries here, faceahem, but I wonder if there might be something deeper than the baptism thing going on here.

 

Please go ahead and overstep them Professor. I'm an avid reader to anything you post. Are you hinting that I might not actually want more children? Suznhynes summarised it nicely for me.

 

Another thing I have been thinking about is that when you create a new life, you also create the potential for pain and suffering where none existed before. I love my two children more than anything and they are my entire world. But now when I look at them and wonder what life holds for them, I have the perspective that there is no loving god to lead and care for them. Will they have the great life I wish and hope for them...or will it be filled with hardships and suffering? Kind of a negative outlook, I know, but these are the things I think about post deconversion.

 

I've just had a look at my two year son sleeping soundly. How great life is when you're two years old. It's not always going to be like that for him though. There's is going to be pain and suffering.

 

There are so many people on this planet already. We all consume and at what point do we as mankind take a step back and realise there's too many of us? And then what? There's nowhere else to go. No more continents to populate. We're going to keep building smaller and smaller houses and eating things that before we would never have considered as food.

 

I know not having another child isn't going to make these problems go away, but at least I won't be adding to them.

I think you and suznhynes both make very good points, here.  I would not trade my son for all the blood on the cross, but I do have my concerns about his future (every good parent worries to some extent).  The world is a lot different now than it was when I was his age.  Things are much more complex.  He'll have to learn to navigate his way through a world I didn't even realize existed until I left the church at age 30.  I've had to school myself in a number of new ideologies, in just a few short years, in order to do my best to prepare him for what's coming.  Plus, I've got to toughen him, which isn't easy with a wife who constantly spoils him.

 

We decided together to stop at one child.  We were open to having more, if nature provided; but we weren't going to "try" anymore.  The beauty of having only one child, for me at least, is that I can pour all of my efforts and energies into getting it right for that one little person.  I can multi-task, but I don't really think that is the best approach to getting things done.  Instead, I like to focus completely on whatever I am doing at any given moment and do it to the utmost of my ability.  Having only one child allows me to approach parenting in a way that best suits me.

 

Lastly, while responsibility toward the planet is something I believe in, I also have a responsibility toward the species to do my bit in ensuring its survival.  I think the one-child approach achieves both purposes quite nicely.  I have produced offspring and I can pass my convictions on to my offspring's generation through him. 

 

At the end of the day, it's really up to you and your wife what to do next.  If she's okay with having just the one then you have nothing to worry about.  If, on the other hand, she decides she wants more, well, you'll just have to burn that bridge when you get to it.

[decafaholic]

Is adoption something you and your wife would consider? Like adopting an older child and thus skipping the infant baptism? Plus, with adoption, you're not adding to the population. You're actually solving a different social problem: too many foster children in the system.

 

Just a suggestion. Take it with a grain of alt because I'm not a mother, but my niece and nephews are all adopted.

[pawn]

Slightly off-subject, but close enough....

 

After having two children, my wife and I both agreed that me having a vasectomy was a good choice. I have no regrets, it's hard enough for us to raise two children in our current situation. We didn't even want to consider the possibility of having more!!!

I sleep better at night... And sex is better too, no condoms or pills , no anxiety about pregnancy! Weeeee!

[slave2six]

The whole idea of infant baptism is asinine. Baptism is a choice that someone makes, a symbol of their decision to become a christian. An infant is not capable of making such a decision in the first place and parents have no way of guaranteeing that their child will become a christian or stay a christian.

 

You and your wife would be making promises that you have no way to guarantee.

 

That's a very Protestant thought there, DT. For the first seven hundred years (and probably before Nicaea), infant baptism was the SOP. The magic water was the first insurance that a child would get into heaven. I guess with infant mortality rates what they were, that made a kind of sense.

 

For the Orthodox, Christianity is not a "ask Jesus into your heart" kind of religion. For them, it's simply another aspect of being in that family.

 

If you're a new convert, baptism is given after you have been through catechism and understand the basic tenets of the faith and after you have taken your first communion. It has a much deeper meaning to the Orthodox than the Protestants.

 

The Protestants are simply weird about the whole thing. There are no sacraments in the Protestant faith. Nothing is sacred to them except the self. It's a very narcissistic religion, one that the early church fathers would call heretical. I fail to see why they even bother with baptism  - Giving them a smiley sticker that says, "I got saved" would be just as meaningful.

 

As to to OP, I think faceahem is right to not go through with it. Forget about lying to god, how you gonna explain it to your kid later on in life? It's one thing to fake that there's a Santa Clause (the kid gets gifts after all) but what possible reason could you give for this? 

 

Too bad, really. The world needs more atheists.

[slave2six]

So it's 4AM and this is what's keeping me awake this fine Thursday morning.

 

I'm not meaning to overstep any boundaries here, faceahem, but I wonder if there might be something deeper than the baptism thing going on here.

 

Please go ahead and overstep them Professor. I'm an avid reader to anything you post. Are you hinting that I might not actually want more children? Suznhynes summarised it nicely for me.

 

Another thing I have been thinking about is that when you create a new life, you also create the potential for pain and suffering where none existed before. I love my two children more than anything and they are my entire world. But now when I look at them and wonder what life holds for them, I have the perspective that there is no loving god to lead and care for them. Will they have the great life I wish and hope for them...or will it be filled with hardships and suffering? Kind of a negative outlook, I know, but these are the things I think about post deconversion.

 

I've just had a look at my two year son sleeping soundly. How great life is when you're two years old. It's not always going to be like that for him though. There's is going to be pain and suffering.

 

There are so many people on this planet already. We all consume and at what point do we as mankind take a step back and realise there's too many of us? And then what? There's nowhere else to go. No more continents to populate. We're going to keep building smaller and smaller houses and eating things that before we would never have considered as food.

 

I know not having another child isn't going to make these problems go away, but at least I won't be adding to them.

 

What you say is true, face, but as we see this nation being taken over by the religious wackos, I kinda think that we need more decent parents like you who will teach their kids how to think for themselves and how to see through the BS that so many gobble up. 

[slave2six]

Slightly off-subject, but close enough....

 

After having two children, my wife and I both agreed that me having a vasectomy was a good choice. I have no regrets, it's hard enough for us to raise two children in our current situation. We didn't even want to consider the possibility of having more!!!

I sleep better at night... And sex is better too, no condoms or pills , no anxiety about pregnancy! Weeeee!

 

True dat! I got snipped after our fifth. Nice being able to get it on without wondering if fertile myrtle was gonna be preggers again.

[mydisplayname]

 

The Protestants are simply weird about the whole thing. There are no sacraments in the Protestant faith. Nothing is sacred to them except the self. It's a very narcissistic religion, one that the early church fathers would call heretical. I fail to see why they even bother with baptism  - Giving them a smiley sticker that says, "I got saved" would be just as meaningful.

 

 

In my fundie days I would have launched a rant in response to this. What's the point though. It's all made up anyway.

 

 

As to to OP, I think faceahem is right to not go through with it. Forget about lying to god, how you gonna explain it to your kid later on in life?

 

Now that you mention it that would have been an awkward conversation.

 

 

The whole idea of infant baptism is asinine. Baptism is a choice that someone makes, a symbol of their decision to become a christian. An infant is not capable of making such a decision in the first place and parents have no way of guaranteeing that their child will become a christian or stay a christian.

 

You and your wife would be making promises that you have no way to guarantee.

 

It works a little different here. The baptism is a promise the parents make. When you finish catechism lessons usually around age 17 then you do your confirmation of faith which is where you formally join the church. That's where you as an individual promise to close your mind to logic and reason in front of the church during normal service.

 

Anyway. The topic didn't come up again with my wife. Maybe if I ignore this problem long enough it will go away. 

[Mimimom]

Anyway. The topic didn't come up again with my wife. Maybe if I ignore this problem long enough it will go away. 

 

 

LOL. From a woman's perspective, this is probably not true. It sounds like she does want another child and just because the subject got dropped doesn't mean she's going to drop it forever. I will also warn you too, if you're really serious about not having another child, the vasectomy is the way to go. Now, I'm not this kind of woman, but I have had many conversation with friends, coworkers, etc over the years, and there are women out there that would go to any lengths to get pregnant when their husbands want nothing to do with it. Husbands can sometimes find themselves "tricked." What they think was an "accident" was no accident at all. I don't know if your wife is capable of that, but it is something to consider. Maybe you should bring up the vasectomy and see how she responds. If she is dead set against it, you may have some work to do.

[mydisplayname]

 

Anyway. The topic didn't come up again with my wife. Maybe if I ignore this problem long enough it will go away. 

 

 

LOL. From a woman's perspective, this is probably not true. It sounds like she does want another child and just because the subject got dropped doesn't mean she's going to drop it forever. I will also warn you too, if you're really serious about not having another child, the vasectomy is the way to go. Now, I'm not this kind of woman, but I have had many conversation with friends, coworkers, etc over the years, and there are women out there that would go to any lengths to get pregnant when their husbands want nothing to do with it. Husband's can sometimes find themselves "tricked." What they think was an "accident" was no accident at all. I don't know if you're wife is capable of that, but it is something to consider. Maybe you should bring up the vasectomy and see how she responds. If she is dead set against it, you may have some work to do.

 

 

That's the interesting thing though. The way that I was "asked" if we should have another child was when I was *erm*....How do I say this. There wasn't a lot of blood available in my brain at the time. Luckily the shock value brought me to my senses.

 

No, no more children. Period.

[slave2six]

 

 

The Protestants are simply weird about the whole thing. There are no sacraments in the Protestant faith. Nothing is sacred to them except the self. It's a very narcissistic religion, one that the early church fathers would call heretical. I fail to see why they even bother with baptism  - Giving them a smiley sticker that says, "I got saved" would be just as meaningful.

 

 

In my fundie days I would have launched a rant in response to this. What's the point though. It's all made up anyway.

 

 

Well, you gotta admit that the traditional/orthodox version has a lot of symbolic beauty to it. You'll notice that there aren't a lot of Ex-Christians who leave the Orthodox church. 

 

The Orthodox generally say, "I believe it. It doesn't have to make sense from a secular viewpoint." This is where the fundies go wrong - they have a great respect for Reason and try to apply it to an unreasonable proposition. The ensuing cognitive dissonance is what generally leads people like me away from the faith.

 

I have a lot of respect for the Orthodox Christians that I know. They have been the kind of people that I like hanging out with. They are typically non-judgmental and pretty smart people. It's the fundies who are the real threat to us. I could be wrong. That's just how I see it.

[slave2six]

Anyway. The topic didn't come up again with my wife. Maybe if I ignore this problem long enough it will go away. 

 

Dude, I have five daughters, two sisters and three granddaughters. In my experience, silence on topics like this is a strategy that females employ to lull you into a false sense of security so they can spring it on you when you least expect it. Then, just when they've trained you to fear the silence, they'll let something go forever just because they know you are squirming at the thought that they might bring it up again. 

 

In the end, jaded apathy has worked really well for me.

[slave2six]

 

 

Anyway. The topic didn't come up again with my wife. Maybe if I ignore this problem long enough it will go away. 

 

 

LOL. From a woman's perspective, this is probably not true. It sounds like she does want another child and just because the subject got dropped doesn't mean she's going to drop it forever. I will also warn you too, if you're really serious about not having another child, the vasectomy is the way to go. Now, I'm not this kind of woman, but I have had many conversation with friends, coworkers, etc over the years, and there are women out there that would go to any lengths to get pregnant when their husbands want nothing to do with it. Husband's can sometimes find themselves "tricked." What they think was an "accident" was no accident at all. I don't know if you're wife is capable of that, but it is something to consider. Maybe you should bring up the vasectomy and see how she responds. If she is dead set against it, you may have some work to do.

 

 

That's the interesting thing though. The way that I was "asked" if we should have another child was when I was *erm*....How do I say this. There wasn't a lot of blood available in my brain at the time. 

 

LOL! They're crafty, you gotta give 'em that.

[mydisplayname]

Is adoption something you and your wife would consider? Like adopting an older child and thus skipping the infant baptism? Plus, with adoption, you're not adding to the population. You're actually solving a different social problem: too many foster children in the system.

 

Just a suggestion. Take it with a grain of alt because I'm not a mother, but my niece and nephews are all adopted.

 

I realise now I never answered you.

 

It's certainly something I've never thought about. I'm not overly excited about it. Does that make me a bad person? Probably.

 

I don't have an answer. Logically it makes sense, but that's another person dependent on me not only financially but spiritually as well and I've already failed my wife on the latter.

 

edit - After rereading this it seems much like some of the same reasons I'm not up for another kid. It's certainly an interesting though.

edit2 - Plus I'll probably be expected to still get the kid baptised. Also I wonder if they'll even allow an atheist to adopt over here. You've certainly given me something to think about.