Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 What basis can you have to believe the revelations of a God who says that he reveals falsehoods? Don't know how Christians would believe the Bible. Assuming that it was a message from God, why believe it when the message itself includes the admission that he issues messages that are not true? Seems like it is a self-defeating communication that says "Believe me when I tell you that I lie": 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (New International Version). "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." "Verily I reveal falsehoods." -- GREAT! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Awwwwwh. That's a cute picture. Good verse btw. It's a very strange verse since it suggests that God is deceiving people. Is that an attribute of a good God? Tricking people to not believe the (supposed) truth? Isn't that the job of Satan to lead people astray? Sounds like from that verse that God's doing it. God must have a split personality disorder or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 I lie and I am a good person, but given my propensity to lie, people listening to what I say should have some measure of skepticism. Assuming that Yahweh is real and that the Bible is his message to humanity, every person should be skeptical about the validity of its contents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Good one, Llwellyn. I wonder why the Almighty has to send people a delusion so they will believe a lie if they already are Hell-bound from dis-belief anyway. "You refuse to believe me? Well, I will make you believe a lie, that I will send, so that you won't believe me!" What an odd duck he is! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 Maybe, among the messages that God has given to humanity, the one that is the delusion is the Christian "plan of salvation." Yahweh intends to condemn people who convert to Christianity rather than believe the truth. Yahweh leads Christians up the garden path. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave2six Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 How the hell did we not see through this crap for all those years? Oi! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Because god deliberately deceived in order to prevent some of this creatures from getting saved, He was unable to come up with a plan for salvation that was applicable to all.It clearly was not a "perfect" plan, which a perfect god would and could envision. God's plan failed since, in order for Him to accomplish His true goal,(rather than what he said his plan was to be) He had to abandon it by making unexplained exceptions. These exceptions as to certain people were to ensure that they would go to hell, making the entire plan inconsistent and deceptive. God has, by deceiving a few, shown that his promise that salvation is available to everyone through faith is a lie. If he deceived a few, he could deceive many more up to and including everybody. He could easily have been honest and said that He would condemn certain identified people to hell, and describe His reason for doing so. And state that, as to all the rest, his salvation plan would apply. That would at least have been honest and fairly disclosed, if still inconsistent. bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You guys got it all wrong. YHWH is a myth, Zeus is the true king of the universe. He is visible too. The orange colored god that travels the heavens is visible in the night sky. Some call him "Jupiter". Repent heathens, the bible is the work of Loki, trying to deceive you! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 How the hell did we not see through this crap for all those years? Oi! You believed it thoroughly for all those years because the Christian delusion was strong rather than weak. Prior to your conversion, you did not sufficiently love the truth of atheism. For this reason your pastor sent you a powerful delusion so that you would believe the lie. It's described right there in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 How the hell did we not see through this crap for all those years? Oi! You believed it thoroughly for all those years because the Christian delusion was strong rather than weak. Prior to your conversion, you did not sufficiently love the truth of atheism. For this reason your pastor sent you a powerful delusion so that you would believe the lie. It's described right there in the Bible. So then, God worked through the pastor, making the scripture true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 I should have said: "Prior to your FIRST conversion (the one from atheism to Christianity), you did not sufficiently love the truth of your atheism. For this reason your pastor sent you a powerful delusion (Christianity) so that you would believe the lie (Christianity). It's right there in Second Thessalonians: "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 15, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2013 It's like that old riddle where you're in a room with two doors--one opens to everlasting bliss, the other to immediate destruction--and on the table are two computers--one programmed to always lie, the other to always tell the truth. What do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 That Thessalonians quote is making my brain hurt; I'm trying to follow the twisty logic and I can't. In my small, amateur-minded way I simply can't figure out what the heck biblegod is trying to say in most of the bible, let alone in that verse. Until biblegod decides to send us an easy-to-read and easy-to-understand pamphlet describing exactly what he is doing, then I'm content to not believe rather than try to make up some meaning from verses like that. If great scholars have written heavy books of their thoughts on the subject, which I also can't understand, how am I supposed to get something from this? Follow the KISS rule, god -- "Keep It Simple, Stupid" -- for people like me, a strict amateur. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 It's like that old riddle where you're in a room with two doors--one opens to everlasting bliss, the other to immediate destruction--and on the table are two computers--one programmed to always lie, the other to always tell the truth. What do you do? Love this riddle prof. Ask one of the computers what door the other would say leads to bliss. Then do the opposite. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Maybe, among the messages that God has given to humanity, the one that is the delusion is the Christian "plan of salvation." Yahweh intends to condemn people who convert to Christianity rather than believe the truth. Yahweh leads Christians up the garden path. Omg that looks so fuckin' retarded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 So then, God worked through the pastor, making the scripture true? Certainly the Christians Scriptures say things that are at least partially true. For example, the New Testament discusses the Governorship of Pontius Pilate in the Roman province of Judea. This is mostly an historical fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 15, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2013 Maybe, among the messages that God has given to humanity, the one that is the delusion is the Christian "plan of salvation." Yahweh intends to condemn people who convert to Christianity rather than believe the truth. Yahweh leads Christians up the garden path. Omg that looks so fuckin' retarded! I saw something like this when I was around 9 or 10 years old and my first thought was, "How is that person going to get over the top of that cross without falling off?" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 So then, God worked through the pastor, making the scripture true? Certainly the Christians Scriptures say things that are at least partially true. For example, the New Testament discusses the Governorship of Pontius Pilate in the Roman province of Judea. This is mostly an historical fact. Yes, however he was known to be ruthless, decisive and hated Judaism. So ruthless in fact that he once had a room full of people dressed up as Jews to a gathering (or a hearing), and had them all slaughtered. This is a far cry from the Pontius Pilate that the Bible says 'washed his hands' of Jesus' crucifixion. Historians consider his mention to be a classic retro fit to place Christian history within a context that rendered real world events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 Yahweh may wish to tell us a falsehood, but how would he even know that his lie isn't actually the truth? His intended delusion may be: "There is salvation through justification by faith in Apollo." But how can he be so sure that this is factually incorrect? Would he be so sure that Apollo-belief is't the true scheme of salvation? Maybe Yahweh was created by Apollo? Whether Yahweh intends to tell the truth or intends to tell a lie, he should not have 100% certainty one way or another. This is one of my favorite YouTube videos: "God's God" by DarkMatter2525: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldSeer Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 What basis can you have to believe the revelations of a God who says that he reveals falsehoods? Don't know how Christians would believe the Bible. Assuming that it was a message from God, why believe it when the message itself includes the admission that he issues messages that are not true? Seems like it is a self-defeating communication that says "Believe me when I tell you that I lie": 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (New International Version). "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." "Verily I reveal falsehoods." -- GREAT! The passage you quote from Thessalonians is an end time prophesy. Nothing in the book of Rev which is strictly for the end times has come about as yet. The passage is a time just before Armageddon when the world has changed to the new and the old is dissolved. They come under the illusion that the old can be started again and fail as no one on that side of things can agree with each other. In their disgust and hatred they kill each other off and the few left (about 30% to 40% come out of hiding. There's a passage (can't say where) that covers the time after as 'After a short while it will be as though they have never been. I think it's in the OT. Another passage that applies,from the NT, the hand of every man (not including the ones in hiding)will be against his brother, by the hand of man will man's blood be shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 2 chronicals 18:22 describes the Lord putting lying spirits inside the prophets. Jeremiah 4:10 has god "greatly deceiving" the people. So how foolish is it for a Christian to trust in the prophesies of the end times and in the "promise" of heaven? God lies and deceives it says in the bible. My indoctrinated a-mum always proclaims that god "cannot lie." Which flies right in the face of what the scriptures actually say. The bible itself tells you you can't trust a damned thing in it, because it could have come from "the lying pen of the scribes" Jeremiah 8:8. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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