The Bible Giving An Account Of Manmade Laws?

[Mudhoney]

I am still in the closet about my deconversion with my fundy family. Mom, at the very least, knows I have some problems with the bible. She is an odd mixture of baptist fundamentalism with Pat Robertson/Joel O'Steen/Joyce Myers/Left Behind Series thrown in. In speaking with her the other day, the bile reared its ugly head during a conversation. I started questioning the verses in the bile about killing a disobedient son and killing people working on the Sabbath. She said that these laws were never what god wanted, they were really the man-made laws of the time and the bible was just giving an account of them. What? Where is she getting this? I have never heard of this before anywhere. I never was taught this from either of my parents growing up, the bible was the inerrant word of god. Any hard questions were answered with "his ways are not our ways" and "who are you to question." It seems like she's been reading an apologetics book but I don't know what it could be. Any thoughts?

[centauri]

According to the Bible, the laws were given to Moses by God.

They were not man-made.

Your mom is employing a Christian rationalization that attempts to pick and choose which laws are from God.

God further gave the command not to add or subtract from his law (Deut 4:2).

[Geezer]

Mudhoney, you could tell your mom to switch to the Church of Christ. They believe the O.T. law was nailed to the cross and none of it is binding on N.T. Christians. Anticipating your next question here, yes that includes the Ten Commandments.

 

 N.T. Christians, as we all know, are now under grace and apparently also something Paul called the Law of Christ too. Unfortunately, Paul didn’t elaborate on exactly what this ambiguous law consists of. Sadly, the meaning of this law is not defined anywhere in the Bible, but N.T. Christians apparently are subject to it anyway; at least according to the Church of Christ.  

[florduh]

Christians are notorious for making up shit to make the idiotic religion more reasonable/palatable for them. As you can see from their all too frequent visits to this site, there's no point in trying to talk sense to them. They get all wrapped up in their particular alternate reality that's loosely based on a few select Bible verses and they won't look beyond the fence. To get out, they need an internal dialog, not external.

[Mudhoney]

Thanks, everyone. Now that she's aware of my concerns about the bible, I'm afraid these conversations are going to be the norm for us

 

During the conversation she mentioned Jesus's words about divorce and how Moses allowed people to divorce for any reason. She was trying to say that my concerns about killing disobedient sons and killing people who work on the sabbath were either from Moses and not god, or from some other human-made law. I would like to be able to clearly demonstrate to her that the OT laws were from god. I see what she's saying about what Jesus said about divorce. I looked it up and it he said that Moses permitted it. I know I can't convince her of the truth, she's completely brainwashed, but I want to be prepared if I ever hear this from anyone else.

[florduh]

Obviously, every word in the Bible comes from men. A god would have done a better job. I see no point in debating doctrinal issues with Christians as I don't have any interest in the outcome. These are the kind of things that believers argue among themselves.

[midniterider]

I am still in the closet about my deconversion with my fundy family. Mom, at the very least, knows I have some problems with the bible. She is an odd mixture of baptist fundamentalism with Pat Robertson/Joel O'Steen/Joyce Myers/Left Behind Series thrown in. In speaking with her the other day, the bile reared its ugly head during a conversation. I started questioning the verses in the bile about killing a disobedient son and killing people working on the Sabbath. She said that these laws were never what god wanted, they were really the man-made laws of the time and the bible was just giving an account of them. What? Where is she getting this? I have never heard of this before anywhere. I never was taught this from either of my parents growing up, the bible was the inerrant word of god. Any hard questions were answered with "his ways are not our ways" and "who are you to question." It seems like she's been reading an apologetics book but I don't know what it could be. Any thoughts?

 

Why would God allow something to exist in his inspired bible if he didn't agree with it? Is the bible the word of God or not? I thought God wrote the bible. :-) Why would God inspire his scribes to write about the laws of men? Men's laws are not important to God. haha.

[mwc]

     The point is that "god" delivered a perfect law to the Jews and over time they corrupted it in various ways (ie. such as adding their own "human" laws to it).

 

     I imagine that if you take the time to "subtract" (as it were) things that are found in other legal codes then you could expect to be left with this original law (or something close to it).  So things that look like "an eye for an eye" would go.  I'm not familiar with all legal codes by any stretch but maybe boiling a kid in its mothers milk would stay?  That seems important after all.  And I do mean "important" in the sense of a perfect world such that a god has to make sure we know this rule level of important.

 

     I have no idea where the "take your shits outside camp or god won't come around no more because that's yucky" rule originated (if that's from a god or just other men).  Sounds like something a god would say so he wouldn't ruin his new sandals when skulking around in the dark but I could be wrong.

 

          mwc

[slave2six]

Thanks, everyone. Now that she's aware of my concerns about the bible, I'm afraid these conversations are going to be the norm for us

 

During the conversation she mentioned Jesus's words about divorce and how Moses allowed people to divorce for any reason. She was trying to say that my concerns about killing disobedient sons and killing people who work on the sabbath were either from Moses and not god, or from some other human-made law. I would like to be able to clearly demonstrate to her that the OT laws were from god. I see what she's saying about what Jesus said about divorce. I looked it up and it he said that Moses permitted it. I know I can't convince her of the truth, she's completely brainwashed, but I want to be prepared if I ever hear this from anyone else.

 

Leviticus 1:1-2 says, and I quote:

 

And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them...

 

Seems pretty clear to me that everything in The Law was delivered from God to Moe.

 

See if she can wiggle her way out of that one.

[centauri]

During the conversation she mentioned Jesus's words about divorce and how Moses allowed people to divorce for any reason. She was trying to say that my concerns about killing disobedient sons and killing people who work on the sabbath were either from Moses and not god, or from some other human-made law. I would like to be able to clearly demonstrate to her that the OT laws were from god. I see what she's saying about what Jesus said about divorce. I looked it up and it he said that Moses permitted it. I know I can't convince her of the truth, she's completely brainwashed, but I want to be prepared if I ever hear this from anyone else.

The laws were from God and that's clearly expressed throughout the Books of Moses.

The order to kill a man for picking up wood on the Sabbath came from God, not Moses.

 

Num 15:35

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

 

The claim that divorce is a human decree is not accurate. The regulation is found in the Word of God.

Divorce is clearly outlined in the law of God, when a man finds a woman displeasing.

 

Deut 24:1-4

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

 

(Note: In Mark 10:5, and Matt 19:8, Jesus implied that Moses was the author of this law, which is not a correct teaching.

This law on divorce originated with God, not Moses. Moses then passed the instructions of God along to the people.)

 

The law of God also stipulates that if a captive woman fails to please her captor husband, the man may turn her loose, which dissolves the relationship.

 

Deut 21:10-14

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

 

As the scripture shows, there are regulations regarding divorce and the procedure is not illegal or immoral according to God.

 

Jesus, the god-man and paragon of moral clarity, couldn't manage to teach a clear message about divorce.

Mark 10:9 is only one of the positions Jesus taught regarding divorce. There are three stances on divorce according to Jesus, and they do not clarify the issue to any great degree.

 

Position 1-

No divorce is allowed at any time. (Mark 10:9, Matt 19:6)

Position 2-

Divorce seems to be allowed but remarriage is adultery.

Marrying a divorced woman is also adultery. (Luke 16:18, Mark 10;11-12)

Position 3-

Divorce seems to be allowed but only on grounds of fornication.

Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9)

 

Clear as mud.

 

One moral absolute that Christians won't touch with a ten foot pole, is the law of jealousies in regard to marriage and unfaithfulness on the part of a wife. This law is given in Numbers 5:11-31.

The reason Christians won't preach about this law is because it's regarded as both superstitious and barbaric by most people. You won't hear about this moral absolute in sermons or see it engraved on monuments that Christians want to place in public squares.

According to this law, if a husband suspects that his wife has been unfaithful, he can force her to submit to a trial by ordeal.

The woman must then drink a holy potion made with water and dust from the floor of the tabernacle.

If the woman is innocent, drinking the bitter water that brings curses will not affect her.

If the woman is guilty, she will become ill and any fetus she carries in her womb will miscarry.

(Note: God has no problem with a fetus being killed as part of this ritual.)

All that's needed to set this ordeal in motion is suspicion on the part of the husband.

Wives do not have the right to do the same to husbands because this option is for males only.

This isn't simply a suggestion from God, it's a law, a moral absolute.

 

Num 5:29-30

This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

 

As noted before, try finding this law on a Christian list of moral absolutes.

 

 

[pawn]

The bible is a big clusterfuck of idiotic ramblings by deluded primitives. The whole thing. All idiotic delusional ramblings.

 

This universal rule can be equally applied to every verse and chapter.

 

Kthxbai

[WarriorPoet]

It really doesn't matter if the laws were man-made or inspired by god, at least not according to Jesus.

 

Matthew 5:18:  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

[miekko]

The bible is a big clusterfuck of idiotic ramblings by deluded primitives. The whole thing. All idiotic delusional ramblings.

 

This universal rule can be equally applied to every verse and chapter.

 

Kthxbai

I dunno, there are bits in ecclesiastes that are pretty good.

[miekko]

Mudhoney, tell her to read Psalms 119. Also, tell her to actually *read* the books of Moses, they are pretty clear in claiming to be from God. Also, ask why so many Christians throughout history have used those laws as models for civil laws, and also why the dominionists want those laws to govern America. Ask why non-god-given laws are presented as god-given laws in the perfect Word of God.

[Mudhoney]

Thanks again, everyone, I knew I came to the right place. Centauri, thanks for the verse references. It seems abundantly clear from those few verses where the laws came from.

[Adam5]

.. She said that these laws were never what god wanted, they were really the man-made laws of the time and the bible was just giving an account of them. What? Where is she getting this? ..

 

I 'd say from this your Mum knows the Bible laws are wrong, but its good saying that they are man made.  Maybe she is not a fundy afterall. 

 

You could point out that Jesus said that "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Mat 5:17  So all those insane laws of Moses on slavery and stoning disobedient children and stoning people for minor crimes, "loving" Jesus has no problem with any of that.

[leopardus]

Try requiring her to read the Bible and see how that works.

Like in the same book (Deuteronomy) a few chapter later is says,

27:9,10 -Then Moses and the priests, the Levites, spoke to all Israel, saying, “Take heed and listen, O Israel: This day you have become the people of the Lord your God. Therefore you shall obey the voice of the Lord your God, and observe His commandments and His statutes which I command you today.”

 

Oops. Looks like those were "His" (ie. god's) laws after all.

[Guest OldSeer]

Mudhoney, you could tell your mom to switch to the Church of Christ. They believe the O.T. law was nailed to the cross and none of it is binding on N.T. Christians. Anticipating your next question here, yes that includes the Ten Commandments.

 

 N.T. Christians, as we all know, are now under grace and apparently also something Paul called the Law of Christ too. Unfortunately, Paul didn’t elaborate on exactly what this ambiguous law consists of. Sadly, the meaning of this law is not defined anywhere in the Bible, but N.T. Christians apparently are subject to it anyway; at least according to the Church of Christ.  

Correct.There's two laws of concern--natural law that made Adam and civil law that makes flok s subject to the state. Biblical creation are the natural law and equals Adam. Civil law erases Adam and replaces him/them with those that rule. Adam wasn't under civil law. Civil law by Nimrod negates natural law (Adam). Adam and Christianity are the same,as Christianity pursues the return of the rudiments as Adam.