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Goodbye Jesus

A Challenge To Funguyrye.


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SUPERNOVA 1987a

 

In the early hours of February 24, 1987 astronomers in Chile spotted a supernova (a kind of exploding star) and spread the news as quickly as they could.

 

A certain astrophysicist realized that this supernova would be ideal test-bed for his theories, so he and two colleagues quickly submitted a scientific paper that made two significant predictions.  He theorized that when a star explodes in this way, it does so in two stages.  First, it's core collapses in upon itself, releasing a strong burst of atomic particles called neutrinos.  Then, once the neutrinos have radiated outwards, the rest of the star destroys itself in a titanic explosion.

 

Just as the ripples from a splash in a pond radiate outwards, so the burst of neutrinos would do the same, fanning out across space.  The energy of each particle wouldn't change, but as they spread out over a greater and greater volume of space, the chances of one of the hitting a neutrino detector, here on Earth, became smaller and smaller.  The quick calculations by this astrophysicist lead him to make the following predictions.

 

PREDICTIONS

 

1.

Even though the supernova radiated trillions of neutrinos into space, they'd be so thinned out by the time they reached us that no more than a few dozen would be detected.

 

2.

If his understanding of supernovae was right (i.e., based on true knowledge), there'd be a 3 hour delay between the first detection of the neutrinos and the first detection of the light of the star's explosion.  This is because the neutrinos zip right out thru star at the speed of light, whereas the explosion shockwave has to radiate outwards from the collapsing core at supersonic speed.  The difference in speeds accounts for the delay.  To make these calculations, the astrophysicist had to know two other things.  The distance to the star (168,000 light-years) and the speed of light (186,000 miles per second).  If either of these values was wrong, (i.e., not based on true knowledge) they would skew his math and lead him to make the wrong predictions. 

 

OBSERVATIONS

 

1.

The number of neutrinos detected was as follows.  11 in Japan, 8 in the U.S. and 5 in Russia.  11 + 8 + 5 = 24.  Or, as predicted, "a few dozen".

 

2.

The delay between the first detection of neutrinos and the first detection of the explosion's light was between 2 to 3 hours. So, after travelling at light-speed for 168,000 years, the neutrinos arrived within the timeframe specified, give or take an hour.  (How many hours in 168,000 years?  Anyone want to do the math and give us the % accuracy of the prediction? wink.png)

 

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RELEVANT POINTS

 

1.

The speed of light must have stayed constant for 168,000 years for these predictions to be confirmed by the observations.  So, that's for 168,000 years, before February 24, 1987.  Light's speed (which is how fast the neutrinos can move) was assumed to be constant and unchanging for the whole duration of the journey from the supernova to Earth. 

 

The confirmation of the prediction by the observation is an elegant proof that Creationist pseudo-science is totally wrong about any changes in the speed of light happening over the last 6,000 years of human history.  That speed hasn't changed at all, for at least 168,000 years.  If it had, the predictions and observations wouldn't match up.

 

2.

The distance to the supernova (168,000 light-years) must also be accurate for the calculations to have been confirmed by the observations.

 

3.

His theory of how supernovae explode requires that the dying star be millions of years old and to have existed in a universe that's 13.82 billion years old.  If either of these factors was wrong, then any of his calculations made about the star would also be wrong, leading to skewed and inaccurate predictions.

 

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A QUESTION FOR FUNGUYRYE

 

Seeing as his predictions were accurately matched by the observations, do you accept that he had true knowledge of how the universe really works? 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

smile.png

 

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I predict an appeal to Last Thursdayism and/or the Omphalos hypothesis.

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I predict an appeal to Last Thursdayism and/or the Omphalos hypothesis.

Perhaps, but I'd be more inclined to think he will attempt to twist some obscure verse in the Torah through a mind-numbing interpretation of Hebrew to come up with a rebuttal.  He might even throw in a dash of numerology just for good measure.  Of course, this is based purely on the assumption that he even attempts to offer an answer and he doesn't just deflect or ignore the thread all together.

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I predict an appeal to Last Thursdayism and/or the Omphalos hypothesis.

 

Fernweh,

 

I have a suitable rebuttal ready to deal with those two things, but I won't be posting it just yet. 

 

As the Prof has just suggested, FGR may well try and deflect attention away from my actual question. 

So if I introduce something new (like my rebuttal) into this thread, he may well seize on that, rather than deal with the query I've set before him.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

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I hope you'll come back and continue discussion, Funguy.

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Wow. The silence in this thread is deafening... and informative.

 

I'll add some crickets for aesthetic effect.

 

*Chirp Chirp... Chirp Chirp*

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Many have wondered why God would of started with the second letter of the alephbet, instead of the first.  One theory was God revealed enough to us through his word that one must not concern themselves with what happened before, how many planets are there, how many other civilizations are out there.   

 

A better theory is that there is no God.  It certainly fits what we can observe.

 

 

 

 

 

Whether the universe is 13 billion years old, or 6000 years old, what matters is who we give the glory to for creating the heavens and the earth, and the time we each have on this earth.   

 

We know it was billions of years and there doesn't seem to be a who.

 

 

 

The bible is wrought with characters who shaped and changed the course of humanity.  Abraham, Rebecca, Ruth, David, Esther, etc. 

 

None of their deeds stack up to the way Yoda, Obi Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa or even Wedge shaped the course of humanity.

 

Of course they were pure fiction just like the Bible.

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You have assumed I am a YEC.  Is the earth 6000 literal years?  I don't know.  God's years, man's years. 

 

There is a reason why the bible was started with the letter Bet which looks like a backwards C.  Closed on the topside, backside and the bottom and the only portion that is open is what points forward. Many have wondered why God would of started with the second letter of the alephbet, instead of the first.  One theory was God revealed enough to us through his word that one must not concern themselves with what happened before, how many planets are there, how many other civilizations are out there.  Don't even bother try and speculate about what was behind you, but move forward as there are enough cares and concerns that are more pertinent to deal with.  Whether the universe is 13 billion years old, or 6000 years old, what matters is who we give the glory to for creating the heavens and the earth, and the time we each have on this earth.   

 

The time we have here can change humanity and history.  The bible is wrought with characters who shaped and changed the course of humanity.  Abraham, Rebecca, Ruth, David, Esther, etc.  I will focus on what funguyrye can do while on this planet,  as to many Christians look at the finish line instead of the journey.

 

So I can't answer your question nor accept your challenge as it is not relevant to me.  Sorry. 

 

In other words, it's best for us to remain willfully ignorant, to not ask questions, and to not try and figure things out.  Wow.  Just wow.

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I have a question, BAA.  How was this supernova detected, if it was noticed soon enough for the scientist to predict both the number of neutrinos to be detected and the delay before detecting the first blast of light.  In order to predict the neutrino count, the supernova would have had to have been detected very early by some means or another, right?  Who were the scientists who made the predictions?

 

...

 

A side note to funguyre and other apologists: BAA is kind of on the spot to be forthcoming with clarification and further support for his claim.

 

In every instance I have seen, visiting apologists such as you (such as you--I'm not saying you personally have done all these behaviors, but of course I am saying you have engaged in one or more of them)... visiting apologists such as you, when challenged to support your claims, have ignored the question, evaded the question, made up something lame and unrelated, told us that we should believe what you do about your supernatural claims without evidence, and in the face of threatening challenges to your beliefs, well, just because you bring us THE TRUTHTM, insulted us with all manner of logical fallacies, and eventually resorted to ad homs and temper tantrums.

 

In contrast, BAA and others who think critically and honestly seek knowledge, know that don't gain credibility or reach valid conclusions by employing any of these maneuvers.  I would be very surprised if BAA dismissed or evaded my question, or was upset or attacked me for asking it instead of giving me a good answer to my question.  He's still on the hook, as is every one of us when we examine our claims, or need to support them.  You see it's not "us against you."  I have called upon BAA with a question the same way he called upon you.  The difference between you and him is that he has a history of following the evidence and supporting his claims, and you have a history of clinging to what you consider to be the truth at all costs.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you would do well to take a lesson from BAA and others like him.  Be forewarned: if you do, you'll need to put your own claims under scrutiny, just as we have, and continue to do.

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as much as BAA challenge is irrelevant to you, whatever you trying to sell here or what you think your god has done is irrelevant to many here too,,,,,

 

cheers

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Whether the universe is 13 billion years old, or 6000 years old, what matters is who we give the glory to for creating the heavens and the earth, and the time we each have on this earth. 

Really? Because if humanity stuck with that philosophy we'd still be in the ice age!

 

It is through asking questions, running experiments and thinking about how nature works that we are able to live in a developed world with health care to treat illnesses and give people a better quality of life.

 

In fact most of us wouldn't even be here had it not been for man's inquisitive nature. And remember anytime that you receive medical or dental treatment that without modern medicine and anaesthesia every single operation would be excruciatingly painful and likely to cause greater disease :)

 

And no, the Universe has been around for at least 13 billion years, let's not try any 'clever' ignorances towards the laws of the Universe ;)

 

Oh, and ignorance only leads to idolatry and sacrifices, because everyone knows that it only rains when the gods are happy. Just think about that for a minute!

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Yay!  Fungi's back. :)

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You have assumed I am a YEC.  Is the earth 6000 literal years?  I don't know.  God's years, man's years. 

 

There is a reason why the bible was started with the letter Bet which looks like a backwards C.  Closed on the topside, backside and the bottom and the only portion that is open is what points forward. Many have wondered why God would of started with the second letter of the alephbet, instead of the first.  One theory was God revealed enough to us through his word that one must not concern themselves with what happened before, how many planets are there, how many other civilizations are out there.  Don't even bother try and speculate about what was behind you, but move forward as there are enough cares and concerns that are more pertinent to deal with.  Whether the universe is 13 billion years old, or 6000 years old, what matters is who we give the glory to for creating the heavens and the earth, and the time we each have on this earth.   

 

The time we have here can change humanity and history.  The bible is wrought with characters who shaped and changed the course of humanity.  Abraham, Rebecca, Ruth, David, Esther, etc.  I will focus on what funguyrye can do while on this planet,  as to many Christians look at the finish line instead of the journey.

 

So I can't answer your question nor accept your challenge as it is not relevant to me.  Sorry. 

So he deflected.  Bummer.  I was looking forward to a serious answer.

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I may be wrong but I believe the supernova experiment was a happy accident… they were looking in the right place at the right time and decided to take advantage of it. Space is mind-bogglingly huge, and we can only observe tiny bits of it at a time.

 

I do know that they seek for supernovae because that's their 'yardstick' for figuring out where things are because they seem to be kind of homogenous as far as brightness goes… and when they happen it gives astronomers a chance to triangulate. BAA.. please correct me if I am wrong.

 

I'm insatiably curious - curiosity is a hallmark of intelligent species, from crows to dolphins, apes, elephants and humans. Curiosity is how civilization has happened.. without curiosity and innovation there would be no civilization. It's the questions and the seeking for answers that defines our species. We are explorers and problem solvers… if anything this is what separates us from the other animals (though only in degree, I believe).

 

Where would we be without the musings of Hypatia, Aristotle or Plato, Epicurus, Kant, etc..? Even Shakespeare asked questions - though he framed them in art.. as did Da Vinci, Caravaggio, Michelangelo, Bernini, some through mathematics; Newton, Bohrs, Shroedinger, Einstein, etc.. others did it through necessity and innovation, Gutenberg, Edison, Tesla, Jobs, Gates… some through altruism (or nationalism - depends on how you view it) Ghandi, Mandela… even the religious thinkers ASKED questions and attempted, however misguided, to answer them… it's an old and honoured tradition in Judaism to question, there are many great historical religious thinkers in Judaism, Catholicism (Augustine, etc.. though I think they were asshats, at least they attempted) Confucious.. hell, even Hammurabi - who created the very first Law Code.

 

And here we are, discussing it on the internet, over the miles, instantaneously… typing away without Smallpox, Scarlet Fever, Bubonic Plague or Polio BECAUSE of these great thinkers who asked questions and searched honestly for answers - wherever that would take them.

 

On the other side… ignorant 'believers' are fighting over whose religion is right. People are dying because they aren't the right kind of Muslim, or they are christian… or being executed because they are gay, or 'witches'.. children that will starve to death are being born because birth control is somehow a 'sin'.. or worse being born with AIDS because the religious 'powers that be' have told their followers that condoms are sinful. Homosexuals are imprisoned or executed because they are an 'abomination' to 'god'. (and not just in third world countries, Olympics anyone?)

 

It seems telling that dictators (religious or not - they are all cut from the same cloth) first go after the intellectuals, the scholars, the artists, the non-conformists and the minorities and try to stamp them out (defining them by ethnicity, sexual orientation, neuro-untypicals, etc…) These people are fanatics of one stripe or another and they despise innovation, free thinking and change. They also seem to have a particular hatred and fear of knowledge and frequently destroy books, sometime entire libraries of knowledge. Alexandria is just one example. They also destroy indigenous religious icons and places… because they KNOW that if they destroy knowledge and hope and that which makes a people who they are they will have control.

 

I've studied history for a long time now.. and patterns are apparent. Conquerors use force to gain control (the Catholics forced christianity on the peoples of the world, not by inviting them… they did it at the point of a sword) A few anomalies to this are the Persian, Egyptian and Roman empires… they didn't CARE what gods you worshipped… and strangely they are also the greatest, largest and longest lived empires in history. (the Persian and the Egyptian by thousands of years - not the paltry 300 or so the USA has been around - we are infants compared to them) Just pay your taxes and follow the law and they didn't really care what else you did.

 

The point is that the idea that we squelch our curiosity and stop looking for answers, to abide by faith, is inimical to being human. It negates everything that is noble about being human and turns us into automatons… a dumbed down, consumer labour force - sheep. Ever read Animal Farm? 1984? Or see Equlibrium? Read Neitzsche?

 

We are better than that.. or could be.. good gracious.. we are on MARS!!!!  How friggin' cool is that!   No heaven up there by the way.. just space.

 

We just found a microbe, or bacteria.. some little thing, that doesn't use phosphorus like the rest of the worlds fauna does. I don't know if you can understand the implications of this but it's HUGE.. LIFE has found an alternate means of chemistry!!! - right here, on our little rock in space.

 

We've been miles down beneath the crust of our planet…no air, no light.. and life is abundant there too… no sign of hell however, though it is really hot.

 

BAA has explained, on the science thread about the 'size' of our universe. I don't claim to comprehend most of it, but WOW… the things we are discovering about our universe is mind-boggling… and that's only the OBSERVABLE universe.

 

I won't even go into the Higgs Boson.. probably because I can just barely understand the implications of the discovery.

 

Anyway.. I've touched on just a few amazing things we.. us humans, have discovered and done.. with our little explorer brains and desire to KNOW. There is no way I will ever believe that this isn't a good thing.

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(Irrelevancies snipped out for the sake of clarity.)

 

So I can't answer your question nor accept your challenge as it is not relevant to me.  Sorry. 

 

No need to apologize, FGR.

 

I shan't be asking if gravity, oxygen or water are things that are relevant to you, either. 

That's because any decision you make about their relevance to you is...irrelevant.  Their relevance or irrelevance to you is NOT for you to decide... unless you'd like to argue that gravity, oxygen and water are "irrelevant" to your continued existence? 

 

This is also true of neutrinos.

You may think that neutrinos are irrelevant to you, but they don't require your belief or unbelief to be be vitally relevant to you.  Without them the universe wouldn't exist in any form we'd recognize.  Without them the iron, oxygen, calcium, sodium and carbon in your body wouldn't exist at all.  Without them the silicon and germanium in the computer you're using right now wouldn't exist,  either.  In fact, billions of neutrinos are zipping thru every cubic inch of your body as you read these words.  You didn't know that 10 seconds ago, right?

 

Btw, these aren't just empty assertions on my part.

They are bona fide, independently-confirmed facts based upon rigorously tested and checked evidence.  No leaps of faith are required on my part.  Now, since it's impossible for false knowledge to produce correct answers and since the scientist in question DID produce correct answers with his predictions, back in 1987 - logic demands that we accept he had true knowledge of the workings of the universe.

 

But, if you wish to be illogical, well that's your choice.  Wendyshrug.gif

.

.

.

Anyway, let it be recorded that you declined my challenge.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

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To ShackledNoMore and Ravenstar...

 

Can you folks cut me a little slack, when it comes to responding and explaining about Supernova 1987a?

 

This being the holiday season (Reasons Greetings, btw!  smile.png ) my partner and I are visiting friends and relations all the way up and down the east coast.  Give me a few days to get my **** together and I'll get back to you, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

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Anyway.. I've touched on just a few amazing things we.. us humans, have discovered and done.. with our little explorer brains and desire to KNOW. There is no way I will ever believe that this isn't a good thing.

Their devotion to ignorance is only testament to their faith's incompatibility with reality.

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No pressure BAA  :D   When you have time… and the inclination. Have a fabulous visit!

 

Peace!

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Have a great time BAA, we'll catch you on the flip side!

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I pray while you are studying and understanding how the universe works and functions, it will bring you to the revelation of the Elohim who created it. 

 

And I hope that as you are studying and understanding Elohim in your holy texts, it will bring you to the revelation of the humans who created him.

 

 

 

Profound!

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Many have wondered why God would of started with the second letter of the alephbet, instead of the first.  One theory was God revealed enough to us through his word that one must not concern themselves with what happened before, how many planets are there, how many other civilizations are out there.   

 

A better theory is that there is no God.  It certainly fits what we can observe.

 

 

What, no god? Are you serious?! He's just playing Hide & Seek with us, but he's definitely real, even if we can't detect him in any scientifically verifiable way. You just have to have faith that he's real, whether you can scientifically verify his existence or not. Emotions and placebo effect should be all of the evidence you need, otherwise, you'll find out he's real after you die!

 

You don't want that to happen, though, because he'll stick a giant finger in your face and say, "I'm real bitch and you didn't believe. You failed the religion lottery by not participating. Enjoy the lake of fire MUHAHAHA!"

 

[/sarcasm]

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I pray while you are studying and understanding how the universe works and functions, it will bring you to the revelation of the Elohim who created it. 

 

No, no, funguyrye.  That's not how you do it.  Let me show you:

 

BAA, I know you put a lot of time and effort into your posts and into the science behind them.  If there is anything I can do to support you in your endeavor, please don't hesitate to ask.  I've got an old telescope I wouldn't mind packaging up and sending to you (I have more use for microscopes these days).  If you need money, I've got a little stashed away.  Seriously, any way I can help you out, just ask. 

 

Oh, I also make pretty decent burritos, so if you're hungry...

 

See, funguyrye?  See how much more effective that is than prayer?

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I pray while you are studying and understanding how the universe works and functions, it will bring you to the revelation of the Elohim who created it. 

 

 

And when the result of this prayer is always "no" who will you blame?  The result is exactly the same thing you would get if Elohim is imaginary.  It's always the same result as you would get if God is imaginary.

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You don't want that to happen, though, because he'll stick a giant finger in your face and say, "I'm real bitch and you didn't believe. You failed the religion lottery by not participating. Enjoy the lake of fire MUHAHAHA!"

 

[/sarcasm]

 

 

 

It would be hilarious if Christians got to heaven and Yahweh was pissed at them for rejecting Yahweh's law and not offering up any burnt offerings.

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