Church And State

[Ex-COG]

I don't know if this article helps our discussion or not...I discovered it by accident. It compares the US with India in regards to religion and the state, the similarities and differences between the two. It does highlight some points relevant to understanding American religion, such as the role of the Enlightenment in the separation of church and state, the original support of conservative Christians for this separation, the present day religionization of politics, and what secularists need to do in the face of this religionization. After reading this article, I might be tempted to say that the USA has more in common with India than with Europe; which could also be reworded to say that nationalistic, fundamentalist Christianity has more in common with nationalistic, fundamentalist Hinduism than with modern, liberal Christianity.

 

Godless States in God Lands: Dilemmas of Secularism in America and India

By Meera Nanda

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=160

[thunderbolt]

I have a very simple theory:

 

Electoral College

 

I see the logic behind it, but one of the things I hear from my friends in Europe frequently is that very thought. The EC by definition is a "winner takes all" model which leaves a government which is not really representative of the smaller parties. In Europe such parties can hold a single seat, which often breaks the tie on contentious issues.

 

So, by definition, their political system is not as prone to be driven by lobbyists and ideologues such as the religious right, etc. Basically it seems to me that the Republican Party is currently held hostage by the religious right. Or am I daydreaming?

[rising_L]

Hi, I'm from Ireland, and there are alot of Christians over here, I should know I'm dating one!!! But I am not a Christian by a long way. I believe that bible is a tool used by the church to ruse weak minded people into parting with their money etc.

 

But back to the point. We have alot of Christians that talk shit and want to ram the bible down your throat and wash it doen with some blood of christ. My girlfriend was that bad.... But when I talk to Christians and ask them, 'Why did you become a Christian' I am usually answered with one of the following:

 

1. I was raised by my family to be Christian (i.e. Taught, forced)

2. I reached rock bottom (i.e. sexual abuse, alcoholism, addiction etc)

 

For the second point, fair play to those who life themselves up and make something of their lives, Well Done!! Just dont go around judging everyon else and preaching that you are right and we are wrong.

 

Just for the record I was raised Catholic but only because that was the Area of Norther Ireland I Lived in. Ask most Ctaholics and they will tell you that they tell more lies in confession than truth!!!

 

AND THATS TRUE!!!!!

 

 

Hi Rising L! Welcome to the ex-christian forums.

 

I agree that many people are Christians simply because of cultural reasons; it's kind of hard to resist if everyone you know is in the church and the entire society is geared in that direction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Catholic church still hold powerful sway over the government and the people in much of Ireland? And in areas of Northern Ireland, the protestants rule the roost. Either way, sounds like mind control to me!!!

 

And yes, the second reason "hit rock bottom", holds true for many people here in America as a reason to become a Christian. But in a way, that still ties in with the cultural/family influence, as it is often taught that God is the only way to climb out of the hole you dug yourself into. Kind of an AA thing, where you have to reach a point of total helplessness. Now, some do manage to dump their addiction monkeys with this (though I have read that the success rate for AA was under 50%?). But, it looks like it would be a heck of a lot better to teach kids life skills and critical thinking while they're growing up so they could know how to handle peer pressure, stress, sex, preparing for adulthood etc. Education is the key. But... that would put the power to change and control our lives into our hands, not into the hands of an imaginary Jesus...and thus, the church. It's a game of power; the individual, or the church/state/tribe/culture. Power; maybe that is the reason why church and state so often meld.

 

Well you would be right, 20 years ago with the comment about the Catholic church haveing some control over the govenment, but with all the revelations that priests are sexually abusing children, the catholic church has become a laughing stock. In terms of Northern Ireland, the majority of the politicians are Christians, Free P's etc. So you could say that have some control in the government. But the fact is we do not have a government, as the Unionist 'Christian' and the Republican 'Catholics' will not sit in the same room as each other, even thought that is what they were elected to do.

 

The government buildings have seen no action in well over a year, and these politicians are still getting paid for doing Sweet FA!!!

 

But Christians are just as judgemental here as anywhere else, not that I've met Christians anywhere else.