falemon Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 1. What with the fact that modern day christianity not only bears no resemblance to the early church which had no single set of books and instead encouraged personal study, much like the *Talmud in Judaism?! 2. What with the fact that even the interpretation used for the King James bible, which pretty much determines the bulk of your belief through their interpretive decisions made during translation, was created not for accuracy but to please all of the different denominations that were vying for a translation to suit them?! 3. What with their belief in Hell being a very new literal interpretation barely a dozen centuries old, brought about by a cult preacher. --- Before I deconverted this was another one of my gripes. When my pastor would insist that King James was the most accurate translation, but upon any true and honest study anyone with half a brain cell can see it is far from the most accurate translation. Worst yet, people would often even misinterpret what was read in that version and also ignore the fact that these were lossy translations and it was important to identify what the original writer intended. I got caught in a debate between two believers. One was just pointing out that the bible is ambiguous, a simple fact that is undeniable and is the cause for (a) different choices in books and ( different choices in translation and © different choices in interpretation of any given translation. In fact going backwards you have (d) pastors who have to preach in order to convey a single interpretation, © published notations to explain the meaning of the scripture since the scriptures are unclear, ( different translations because not only are the original translations at times ambiguous but there are different ways to think about translating it to yield different interpretations on the reader and (a) christianity as a belief itself was unclear, hence the council of Nicea occurred in order to unify an overly diverse religion. So I am curious how christians resolve this? * Judaism is an incredibly flexible religion that allows dynamic evolution, a fact I only recently learned by going to Jerusalem myself. Though christianity paints a very different picture of them, making them sound inflexible and tied to old laws when in fact that is far from the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 29, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted December 29, 2013 They've been practicing for 2,000 years and still aren't doing it right? I guess practice doesn't make perfect after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Modern fundamentalist Protestantism is so far removed from original christianity, it doesn't resemble the original christ cult hardly at all. Despite what most fundy Protestants teach, their form of religion is barely a shadow of the original. The reformation is a relatively recent phenomenon in the grand scheme of the abrahamic faith systems, and even relative to christianity itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 29, 2013 Author Share Posted December 29, 2013 * Judaism is an incredibly flexible religion that allows dynamic evolution, a fact I only recently learned by going to Jerusalem myself. Though christianity paints a very different picture of them, making them sound inflexible and tied to old laws when in fact that is far from the case. If you could, can you explain this further please? Very curious what you mean by this. How was Israel? Always wanted to go. In short, they constantly explore how the law relates to the world today and how the world today relates to the law. They never stop debating right and wrong, and the precedent system we have today resembles the system of the law that the Jews have been using for thousands of years. Since the Talmud has already been finished, they have been working on compiling a sort of Talmud of the Talmud for the last 2000 or so years, which consists of even more up to date discussion and definition on right and wrong. The goal of one the previous publications was to create a simpler book that a housewife could understand on right and wrong. It's an interesting system, which when approached with a pure heart is really effective, though we know how easily it can be abused when used by corrupt individuals (as we have witnessed with the easily manipulated legal system of the western world). As for Israel, it was amazing yet somewhat disenchanting for someone like myself who wants nothing but to see peace, but instead every account I am given reminds me that the conflict there has no end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddamnit Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 The Bible is not truly ambiguous. It's just really stupid when you read it for what it is and there are many contradictions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I personally think the huge bulk of people who call themselves xians never actually read the bible or think at all about it, let alone think deeply and question things about it. I think (my opinion) the bulk of xians go to church because it's their tradition, their family expects it, and they are vaguely afraid of going to hell. I think we are the people who bothered actually reading and questioning and saying, "Wait a minute! What the hell did I just read?". Then we weren't satisfied by the trite answers like "god is mysterious" and "just have faith." I think a lot of people are completely satisfied with those answers. I know I'm not and it sure seems like nobody else on this site is either! I'm also very sure that the bulk of people who call themselves xians never study any church or religious history. Many people never even read any books at all once they're out of school, let alone a religious history book. But I'm pretty confident that the people I used to know from church never read any type of religious history books for fun and had no clue that what they did and heard and learned in church was different in any way from what had happened in churches a thousand years ago. You know, they just repeat over and over in church that god is immutable, so therefore church doesn't change either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 What's worse are those who have read the bible but rather than honour their newfound knowledge that it is not the truth they continue in life double minded, deceiving themselves because they still irrationally fear hell, which does not exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srd44 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 This thread reminds me of a couple of books. First, Luther's little treatise on Trade and Usury -- a great read! But Luther basically comes to the conclusion that "Christians are rare!" Using mostly the sermon on the mount to define what a Christian is and what Christianity is, Luther concludes there ain't any. Tolstoy does the same thing in his The Kingdom og God is Within You --- a fantasitic read. It's a hash critic of contemporary socielty, culture, and capitalism. But like Luther, Tolstoy, also using Matthew as the criterion to define Christianity, claims ther aren't any. His biggest critic states: 1) any country with a military is already anti-Christian, again using Jesus' sermon on the mount as the criteria for what Christianity is, and frankly Tolstoy is spot on. 2) Capitalism is antithetical to "Treat your neighbor as yourself"---Luther's position to. For you wouldn't by a product at $X and sell it back to yourself for 2x $x. Having CHinese teenagers make a product for .20c and hour and selling it for 60% profit margin is not Christian either. I'd recommend Tolstoy's book it's a great social commentary. Of course Tolstoy was an ascetic at this point in his life. But yes, using these ancient documents as the criteria for what Christianity is and what a Christian is, I'd not only agree with Tolstoy and Luther, et alia, on this matter, but I'd even push the envelop further: Christianity is a historical phenomenon that came AND WENT! What survives in its name is a whole other beast, hypocritically authenticated and legitimated by making rhetorical appeals to a text that has become, for better or worse, authoritative in our culture. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I once pointed out to the fundies that own the recording studio that they follow Paul more than they do jesus, and when the two of them contradict, Paul is the one who wins out. They of course disagreed with me and said jesus is the one who brought the new covenant or something stupid like that. I simply stated the famous "I have come not to abolish the law" verses of jesus then reminded them that Paul got rid of the dietary requirements, Paul got rid of required circumcision, Paul moved women into a passive rather than active role in the ministry, etc. But they don't listen. Im an atheist so who am I to understand their religion better than they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burny Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I once pointed out to the fundies that own the recording studio that they follow Paul more than they do jesus, and when the two of them contradict, Paul is the one who wins out. They of course disagreed with me and said jesus is the one who brought the new covenant or something stupid like that. I simply stated the famous "I have come not to abolish the law" verses of jesus then reminded them that Paul got rid of the dietary requirements, Paul got rid of required circumcision, Paul moved women into a passive rather than active role in the ministry, etc. But they don't listen. Im an atheist so who am I to understand their religion better than they do? Good point - I agree that 'modern' xtianity is definitely a Pauline sect, rather than a Jesus sect. Of course, a lot of the 'repression of women' was written in books ascribed to Paul but not actually written by him, so there's that little problem too. I think the clearest way this issue of Christians themselves not practicing real Christianity is best summed up with the way they treat money and wealth. GodIsImaginary has a great summary of this issue. Basically, Christians love quoting Jesus until you start quoting stuff that they obviously aren't doing. Then all of a sudden they start turning to Pauline quotes, or the OT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Agree. But these folk are fundies, so they believe Moses wrote the first 5 books, the gospels were written by the stated authors, etc. They also think that the fact science changes when new information becomes available to be a weakness. I don't remember the details but they brought up something about a revised date of the Clovis people (first peoples in the Americas) or something along those lines. They tried to use it as an example of the uncertainty of science, that it is better to cling to ideas of the past or something. I never really understood how they could think that is a virtue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 There is a really interesting book about modern day christianity and how it came to it. Its still a christian book though but I thought it was worth the read (of course there is stuff in it that you need to generously skip especially at the end but reading it with an open mind won't hurt). Its called Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. It explains it all how most of todays church is based on paganism rather then the bible. Like tithing or liturgy or worship or even going to Church on sundays, pews, the preacher having his speech and the way the people listening are seated and have no participation in the service...it's mind boggling and interesting and the fun of it...no so called true believer will believe you...not even if its all based on historical facts. Whatever...just shows how much a cult it all is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 * Judaism is an incredibly flexible religion that allows dynamic evolution, a fact I only recently learned by going to Jerusalem myself. Though christianity paints a very different picture of them, making them sound inflexible and tied to old laws when in fact that is far from the case. If you could, can you explain this further please? Very curious what you mean by this. How was Israel? Always wanted to go. I had some similar experience in Israel. Took one of those walking tours...the payed one because you would go inside the buildings and up to the Al Aksa Mosque. The guide who had studied christianity and judaism and was a jew who grew up in the US and then migrated to Israel told us quite a bit about the religious conflicts that where going on there...and stunningly most conflicts concerning the old city of Jerusalem where among different groups of christians. Yet he made that very interesting and profound statement that struck me right away. He said: For Jews it never was an eye for an eye. That always has been seen as symbolical. And Israel is an amazing place to see. Even though there is conflict. I spent time with an arab israeli girl and her friends. It was interesting and they somehow don't take it all too serious with the conflict. I know they have israeli citizenship and its different with people living in the palestinian autonomy zones. But as she explained the conflict to me she said once: You know, palestine is at war with israel...well not really but we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I believe "Christianity" is, and always has been, whatever a group of people want it to be. It's an idea that's adaptable to any historical moment or place. For most people, the only prerequisite is that you "believe" in Jesus somehow, thereby affirming to your immediate circle that you won't do anything crazy like join the Hare Krishnas. In that respect, 21st century Christians are just as authentic as 1st Century ones. If Christianity wasn't infinitely adaptable, it would have met an early death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 If Christians were strictly Jesus believers, not God nor Paul, but only Jesus in the most literal sense - like Jesus's words ONLY as recorded by the KJV version the most commonly cited bible by christians - then they would have been a lot more radical than most religious followers and even other political positions because Jesus requires: *Give up wealth and possessions in order to attain heaven *Comfort the widows, weak, etc *Be treated as how you would be ideally treated *Give up your family to follow Jesus *Give it your all to the cause of Jesus *Do not pray in public *Do not judge others *Condemn the amassing of wealth *Pay your taxes *Heal and help others *Reserve hate and division for Jesus to wield not yourself *Do not punish others without having all the facts beforehand *Do not tolerate hypocrisy of others and yourself *Love your fellow people and God *Follow the old laws and rules until Jesus comes back *Do not presume the time of Jesus' return *Doubt other people's claim to divinity until you get proof *Act like Jesus as much as possible *Follow the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law *Throw out the moneylenders out of sacred places *Be furious at fig trees for not bearing fruit *Be as prudent and humble as possible as per the parables *Be befuddled as to what Jesus have said about himself *Forgive others as much as possible *Love your enemies and friends Got any more that is strictly Jesus based? Please add to it whatever is strictly Jesus, no OT or NT: only whenever Jesus appears. The point of this, these dictates are many and they are difficult to follow. If The Bible was confined to the Gospels, then it would be a less confusing book, but people like to put on their agenda rather than what they profess to follow. If every Christian followed this particular statement: Give up your possessions to others who are in need, it would have been a very different Christianity. One effect of that would that there would have been no Red scare in the 1950s, since it would be normal to donate a lot of things to a poor child who has nothing and the poor kid who is now rich would then donate it all back to others until everybody has given to everybody what they have. It is easier to be human, than it is to follow what you profess to believe. Our minds are wired to do it the easy way. That is one potential answer as to why not every Christian follows their belief in every detail in order to follow Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Trying to follow Jesus is like trying to follow Wolverine... Impossible. The fact is, you don't have super-human powers, you are not a fictional character, you are not hunted by the government, and you can't regenerate from deadly wounds. So please, just stop trying people! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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