Atheists Standing Up For Rationality

[RaLeah]

I don't really agree with all these points, but just FYI: 

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/11/15_ways_atheists_can_stand_up_for_rationality/

 

I think all of us are trying to find a diplomatic balance with our family and friends who are religious and asking for respect for who we are and our lack of belief. 

 

I disagree with this writer's need to stand up for not respectfully acknowledging someone else's prayers and stuff, but I know we all draw our lines in different places, and if someone wants to take a personal stand... well, more power to them. 

 

What do you guys think?

[mymistake]

It really depends on your family.  I'm happy with the truce I have with mine.  But I would rock the boat if I saw my aunt shaming a cousin or bashing gays.  Some people have no truce at all.  I agree we all have the right to criticize religion. If religion can't hack that criticism then religion is weak.

 

 

Edit:

Oh and I have to add that prayer time is great for looking around and spotting the other atheists.

[midniterider]

I don't really agree with all these points, but just FYI: 

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/11/15_ways_atheists_can_stand_up_for_rationality/

 

I think all of us are trying to find a diplomatic balance with our family and friends who are religious and asking for respect for who we are and our lack of belief. 

 

I disagree with this writer's need to stand up for not respectfully acknowledging someone else's prayers and stuff, but I know we all draw our lines in different places, and if someone wants to take a personal stand... well, more power to them. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

If I'm visiting a religious group and they want to say Grace, I'll say it with em.

If they are in my house and they want to say Grace, I'll say it with em.

The rest of the time, I just eat. Grace doesnt mean anything to me, really.

 

If someone tries to convert me, no matter where I'm at, "No thanks, not interested."

[midniterider]

I don't really agree with all these points, but just FYI: 

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/11/15_ways_atheists_can_stand_up_for_rationality/

 

I think all of us are trying to find a diplomatic balance with our family and friends who are religious and asking for respect for who we are and our lack of belief. 

 

I disagree with this writer's need to stand up for not respectfully acknowledging someone else's prayers and stuff, but I know we all draw our lines in different places, and if someone wants to take a personal stand... well, more power to them. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

The more time you devote your life to something (like Christianity, or ex-Christianity or liberalism, for example), the more importance you tend to assign to it and the more you find yourself becoming a 'champion' for your cause. And then if you begin to make money writing books and doing speaking engagements for your cause, your cause becomes a crusade. And your viewpoint can become skewed. You can brainwash yourself.

 

I find myself hating what those damn religious people post on facebook. I've spent too much time here on Ex-c. :-) My viewpoint is becoming skewed. Really, why should I care or become offended if someone wants to say Grace before a meal. Why should I care or become offended if someone does some benign religious thing? Just don't try to convert me.

 

I have reduced my facebook use to once a day. It seems like a pretty easy addiction to overcome. I know in my heart that I'm not missing much by not logging on there. :-)

[Vigile]

 

I don't really agree with all these points, but just FYI: 

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/11/15_ways_atheists_can_stand_up_for_rationality/

 

I think all of us are trying to find a diplomatic balance with our family and friends who are religious and asking for respect for who we are and our lack of belief. 

 

I disagree with this writer's need to stand up for not respectfully acknowledging someone else's prayers and stuff, but I know we all draw our lines in different places, and if someone wants to take a personal stand... well, more power to them. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

If I'm visiting a religious group and they want to say Grace, I'll say it with em.

If they are in my house and they want to say Grace, I'll say it with em.

The rest of the time, I just eat. Grace doesnt mean anything to me, really.

 

If someone tries to convert me, no matter where I'm at, "No thanks, not interested."

 

 

I suppose this one depends on your former religious experience and what you personally experienced while deconverting.  I would personally find praying now an utterly humiliating experience and I would rock the boat if someone tried to pressure me into it.  On most issues though, if someone isn't asking something of me, I'm fine with just letting them go unnoticed, including people who wish to pray around me while I respectfully wait. 

[Geezer]

I just posted this in the "Do you speak Christian?", but it seems appropriate for this thread too.

 

 

 

A Manual for Creating Atheists

by Peter Boghossian

 

 

John Loftus in his review of this book notes, “One of the premises of Boghossian's book is that believers can be reasoned out of their faith. Can they? For the record I think believers cannot usually be argued out of their faith because they were usually never argued into it the first place. Sometimes we say it as Jonathan Swift did, whom Boghossian quotes as saying, "You do not reason a man out of something he was never reasoned into."

 

 

That has certainly been my experience both as a believer and as a non-believer.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I just posted this in the "Do you speak Christian?", but it seems appropriate for this thread too.

 

 

 

A Manual for Creating Atheists

by Peter Boghossian

 

 

John Loftus in his review of this book notes, “One of the premises of Boghossian's book is that believers can be reasoned out of their faith. Can they? For the record I think believers cannot usually be argued out of their faith because they were usually never argued into it the first place. Sometimes we say it as Jonathan Swift did, whom Boghossian quotes as saying, "You do not reason a man out of something he was never reasoned into."

 

 

That has certainly been my experience both as a believer and as a non-believer.

I read this book recently and although I certainly agree with the methods he describes and the advice he gives; I question whether "street epistemologists" will really be as successful as he thinks.  Some of his own accounts of "interventions" were slightly less than convincing to this old skeptic.  Still, it was worth the read.

[Geezer]

 

I just posted this in the "Do you speak Christian?", but it seems appropriate for this thread too.

 

 

 

A Manual for Creating Atheists

by Peter Boghossian

 

 

John Loftus in his review of this book notes, “One of the premises of Boghossian's book is that believers can be reasoned out of their faith. Can they? For the record I think believers cannot usually be argued out of their faith because they were usually never argued into it the first place. Sometimes we say it as Jonathan Swift did, whom Boghossian quotes as saying, "You do not reason a man out of something he was never reasoned into."

 

 

That has certainly been my experience both as a believer and as a non-believer.

I read this book recently and although I certainly agree with the methods he describes and the advice he gives; I question whether "street epistemologists" will really be as successful as he thinks.  Some of his own accounts of "interventions" were slightly less than convincing to this old skeptic.  Still, it was worth the read.

 

 

 

 

I have come to see this converting/de-converting one another issue, from the non-believers perspective anyway, as essentially attempting to move religion out of the realm of theology into the world of science, logic, and reason. Frankly, except in rare instances, I don’t think that is even possible. Christians simply don’t think rationally or logically when it comes to issues involving faith; and their level of education doesn’t seem to be a relevant factor either.  

 

Since I am convinced that is true, I try to avoid those kinds of encounters.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I just posted this in the "Do you speak Christian?", but it seems appropriate for this thread too.

 

 

 

A Manual for Creating Atheists

by Peter Boghossian

 

 

John Loftus in his review of this book notes, “One of the premises of Boghossian's book is that believers can be reasoned out of their faith. Can they? For the record I think believers cannot usually be argued out of their faith because they were usually never argued into it the first place. Sometimes we say it as Jonathan Swift did, whom Boghossian quotes as saying, "You do not reason a man out of something he was never reasoned into."

 

 

That has certainly been my experience both as a believer and as a non-believer.

I read this book recently and although I certainly agree with the methods he describes and the advice he gives; I question whether "street epistemologists" will really be as successful as he thinks.  Some of his own accounts of "interventions" were slightly less than convincing to this old skeptic.  Still, it was worth the read.

 

 

 

 

I have come to see this converting/de-converting one another issue, from the non-believers perspective anyway, as essentially attempting to move religion out of the realm of theology into the world of science, logic, and reason. Frankly, except in rare instances, I don’t think that is even possible. Christians simply don’t think rationally or logically when it comes to issues involving faith; and their level of education doesn’t seem to be a relevant factor either.  

 

Since I am convinced that is true, I try to avoid those kinds of encounters.

 

I tend not to seek out those kind of encounters, but I certainly won't back out if an opportunity presents itself (as two unfortunate Mormons discovered yesterday).

[RipVanWinkle]

Those of you who think that at a certain age a person is likely to choose Xtianity or some other religion, you are wrong. The issue is not age, but  rationality. There are a lot more mentally sharp people in their 70's 80's and 90's than some of you think. I am climbing the latter of the 70's, very slowly, of course. The only thing I've noticed so far is that my recent memory is not quite as good as it used to be. 

 

I joined a group of "seniors" at the University of Central Florida a year or so ago. UCF provided speakers who were experts in a particular field, such as biology, evolution, government, etc. It was well attended by seniors in their 70's,80's and 90's. Questions were asked by people in the audience after a lecture. The questions were very savvy and intelligent without exception. The scientist who spoke at one event told me that he was very impressed with how sharp the seniors were. I was surprised for the same reason because, even though I am in the same age group, (nobody thinks of himself or herself as old) I realized how prejudiced I was toward the elderly with reference to their intelligence. I truly was. So are some of you. Get over it. It's truly demeaning.

 

My experience is limited as to how old folks respond to impending death. My mother in law died about 4 years ago. She asked me about a year before her death (she died at 94) whether I thought it mattered what one believes at the time of death. I said that I didn't think it made a bit of difference one way or the other. She said, "I'm really glad to hear you say that." She was a lovely and intelligent lady and I am so glad I was able to give her that answer. She wasn't afraid of death; she was ready for it. Further, her mental acuity never left until the very last.

 

But in general, I think  the vulnerability of a person who is facing imminent death to religious pleas varies from person to person, depending upon many factors, including their mental sharpness. If they are irrational, it obviously doesn't matter.   

 

As an aside, when I was about 62 or so I was at the counter of Burger King about to order. The young lady behind the counter asked me, "Are you a senior?". That was a real shock. But I recovered in time to say, "no, I graduated 2 years ago."    bill

[Vigile]

Those of you who think that at a certain age a person is likely to choose Xtianity or some other religion, you are wrong. The issue is not age, but  rationality. There are a lot more mentally sharp people in their 70's 80's and 90's than some of you think. I am climbing the latter of the 70's, very slowly, of course. The only thing I've noticed so far is that my recent memory is not quite as good as it used to be. 

 

I joined a group of "seniors" at the University of Central Florida a year or so ago. UCF provided speakers who were experts in a particular field, such as biology, evolution, government, etc. It was well attended by seniors in their 70's,80's and 90's. Questions were asked by people in the audience after a lecture. The questions were very savvy and intelligent without exception. The scientist who spoke at one event told me that he was very impressed with how sharp the seniors were. I was surprised for the same reason because, even though I am in the same age group, (nobody thinks of himself or herself as old) I realized how prejudiced I was toward the elderly with reference to their intelligence. I truly was. So are some of you. Get over it. It's truly demeaning.

 

My experience is limited as to how old folks respond to impending death. My mother in law died about 4 years ago. She asked me about a year before her death (she died at 94) whether I thought it mattered what one believes at the time of death. I said that I didn't think it made a bit of difference one way or the other. She said, "I'm really glad to hear you say that." She was a lovely and intelligent lady and I am so glad I was able to give her that answer. She wasn't afraid of death; she was ready for it. Further, her mental acuity never left until the very last.

 

But in general, I think  the vulnerability of a person who is facing imminent death to religious pleas varies from person to person, depending upon many factors, including their mental sharpness. If they are irrational, it obviously doesn't matter.   

 

As an aside, when I was about 62 or so I was at the counter of Burger King about to order. The young lady behind the counter asked me, "Are you a senior?". That was a real shock. But I recovered in time to say, "no, I graduated 2 years ago."    bill

 

My grandfather, who died at 94 a few years ago, was the smartest guy I've ever met.  I admit I too have some lingering doubts about the intelligence of the older generation, but I suspect it's more of an education/rationality issue.  Many had to leave school early because of the war and depression.  Many are still more than capable though and it's important to approach anyone on an individual basis and not assign them stereotypes merely by virtue of their demographic. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

As for prayer, I am fine with bowing my head in someone else's home when that person says grace. I even used to say a short prayer over the meal when my father, in his 80s, would be at dinner in my house. Now that he's gone, though, I told my sister, who is very Christian, that as they say grace in her house, we don't say grace in mine. It went OK when she and my very Christian nephew visited two weeks ago.

[Ravenstar]

I see his point, atheists 'coming out' is something that has been in the news for a while now, and like every minority the basic attitude of the rest is basically 'STFU and keep it to yourself', peppered with "atheists are all angry and shrill" etc...

 

I think it's vital we have a voice and uphold reason where we can (thought the A+ people kind of grind on my nerves a bit) but we are not an homogenous group… each atheist, deist, pantheist, pagan, agnostic and non-judeochristian is also a person with an unique life situation, approach to their non-judeo-christian lifestyle/values and desire to educate or promote their convictions. It's kind of like feminism… again a very non-homogenous group. We all can't, nor should we, be militant atheists/whatever.

 

I'd love to be another Christopher Hitchens or AronRa, sadly I do not have their speaking abilities nor penetrating on-the-spot intelligence and vast education. I admire other outspoken atheists, though I don't always agree with their approach (PZ Meyers comes to mind).

 

Standing for ones convictions is important to be able to claim integrity… and in certain situations I think it's important to be vocal. The personal IS political, unfortunately… but to address EVERY instance would be exhausting and destructive, especially in family and work environments.

 

I don't relish the idea of being that person who challenges every instance of non-reason, unless it's something obviously abhorrent. I do challenge racist, sexist and homophobic speech, attitudes and jokes no matter where I am, because, well, they are just wrong and if I don't then I will hate myself for being a wuss. I've 'lost' a few 'friends' over this. I'm not 'in the closet' about being non-religious, but don't feel the need to make it a big deal when hanging out with my family or when I'm working. I also believe in being somewhat respectful of others beliefs (i.e.: I won't actually participate in Grace, or say 'amen', but I will bow my head and take a moment of silence - however if I am asked to say it I make a point of thanking nature, mother earth, the animals sacrifice, and the farmers for supplying the food on the table - hey, they asked!    They on't ask anymore) But I am lucky that my family is only moderately Christian (and nominally Catholic to boot).

 

Science baloney.. Here I get more involved. I despise ignorance in basic science and I will gently correct bullshit when involved in such conversations. I've mentioned before that I have a muslim friend whom I get into heated existential debates with… ya, there's been a lot of science/religion debates that escalated… which were defused when I agreed to read some of the Qur'an's Suras if he read some science articles. it's an exchange.. will I change his mind? Probably not, but I've got him thinking!  

 

I am politically active, despite belonging to no particular political group. I write letters, donate, sign petitions and participate in humanist endeavours in my area supporting reason, education and equal rights.

 

I do my part online, and am considering changing the direction of my blog to one that is more pro-reason in many areas.

 

We each have our own ways of contributing to the promotion of reason and I think it's kind of peer shaming to tell others how they should do it. It's a conformist idea (and I rebel against any pressure to conform - it's my nature).. and if anything atheists (like pagans) are notoriously independent minded.. kind of like herding cats, no?

 

I think celebrating diversity amongst atheists/whatever is far more important than trying to get us to be good little atheist soldiers, for the 'cause'.