Why Be Selfless?

[CarpeDiem]

The hopelessness of the world still exists whether or not I believe in Christianity.  In fact even more so because there is no great ending for those who suffer; dying won't bring them into paradise.  They just ... die.. in pain.  And that's all they will have ever known.

 

This makes me wonder - why be selfless at all then if it has no lasting impact?  If nothing lasts, then why not spend my very few days (which used to number infinite and now number just over 70 years, if I'm that lucky) only to satisfy myself?  Why not live everyday to enjoy the most pleasurable experiences possible?

 

Without the sacrificial, selfless Jesus Christ who loves everyone unconditionally as the role-model in my life, I now have no idea what to live up to.  There is no longer even an "up."  So why try at all?

 

(I know that for some of you, Jesus was not a positive figure in your life.  But in the Christianity I knew, His example of Love was only good).

 

I'm sure some of you will say that objectively helping another human will make one feel the best anyway.  But I don't know if I buy that.  Of course I "feel good" when I help someone, but I also "feel good" when I make a completely selfish choice.   I just don't have the guilt that follows the latter anymore, or the example (Christ) that comes with the former.

[CarpeDiem]

The whole idea of survival of the fittest, Darwinism, social evolution -- I think all would be in alignment with living selfishly.  Make yourself the most "fit" possible; spend no unnecessary energy helping the "unfit."

 

This sounds terrible, but without a god to judge me on it, why is it not true, from a completely logical perspective?

[RogueScholar]

I think you have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest issue. The benefits of altruism are likely traits that have survived due to selection pressures as we've evolved into social animals. There is actually a significant amount of literature on altruism, you may want up do a pub med search for abstracts to see how much data exists.

[CarpeDiem]

I think you have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest issue. The benefits of altruism are likely traits that have survived due to selection pressures as we've evolved into social animals. There is actually a significant amount of literature on altruism, you may want up do a pub med search for abstracts to see how much data exists.

 

Interesting -- altruism linking itself to the survival of our species?  I'll do some research.  That idea sense in the long run.

 

But what about the now?  Meaning... what do I care if humanity survives or not, if I'm going to be dead before it happens anyway?

[CarpeDiem]

*makes sense

[midniterider]

The hopelessness of the world still exists whether or not I believe in Christianity.  In fact even more so because there is no great ending for those who suffer; dying won't bring them into paradise.  They just ... die.. in pain.  And that's all they will have ever known.

 

This makes me wonder - why be selfless at all then if it has no lasting impact?  If nothing lasts, then why not spend my very few days (which used to number infinite and now number just over 70 years, if I'm that lucky) only to satisfy myself?  Why not live everyday to enjoy the most pleasurable experiences possible?

 

Without the sacrificial, selfless Jesus Christ who loves everyone unconditionally as the role-model in my life, I now have no idea what to live up to.  There is no longer even an "up."  So why try at all?

 

(I know that for some of you, Jesus was not a positive figure in your life.  But in the Christianity I knew, His example of Love was only good).

 

I'm sure some of you will say that objectively helping another human will make one feel the best anyway.  But I don't know if I buy that.  Of course I "feel good" when I help someone, but I also "feel good" when I make a completely selfish choice.   I just don't have the guilt that follows the latter anymore, or the example (Christ) that comes with the former.

 

As your moniker suggests, seize the day! Take a new approach to helping people. Make yourself your own role model in life. Find some values and principles that sound good and live up to them.

 

Enjoy helping others and enjoy your own personal self indulgences.

[CarpeDiem]

 

Why is lasting impact a factor in helping someone?

 

 

I guess because it always used to be for me.  Everything I ever did had lasting impact -- that's what I believed.  It was a great motivator.

 

Seeing selflessness without lasting impact is totally new for me.  I just haven't ever considered doing something that didn't have some sort of eternal value.  Without eternal value, I guess there is still value.  It's just much shorter lived.  So my question remains then -- is it worth it?  My whole value system has changed-- it's just difficult to adjust to I guess.

[Vigile]

If your goal is self-satisfaction, then sometimes being selfless is a means to that end.  Living entirely for yourself is a lonely, ugly existence IMO.  You have some good thoughts, but IMHO, taken to extremes you won't live a happy life. 

[Guest MadameX]

The tension between being selfish vs being a cooperative part of society and keeping that higher good paramount, is an essential struggle of being human.

 

Pretty much every religious tradition has examples of how to be a better person. The Christian model of Jesus (which if course has changed over time, varies among sects, too) is just the one you grew up with.

 

All the best. Change can be quite disorienting, but taking a peek at the world outside of Christianity presents a great opportunity to become a better person, yourself.

[pratt]

if most if not all people are like you, what would your world be,,,,,,

 

imagine you be injured or whatever, nobody lifts a finger to help you or ask for huge some of money or simply let you suffer?

 

why be selfless,,,, because the world iscomes a better place

[Margee]

Welcome to Ex-c CarpeDiem. Thanks for sharing a good topic. I went through a stage in the last couple of years asking myself the exact same question. I always thought I was being good to people and trying to help them all my life was because god put them there and I was to be their angel. I wanted to win brownie points with god. I don't think my motives were always so good now that I look back. One thing I have discovered is that I do have a real heart for suffering people. I always have. I could write a whole book on this.

 

Now the question arises that we don't have a god to answer to.....we can make everything about ourselves right? I think Vigile hit it on the nose for me...it would be a very lonely existence. I did make it all about me for the last couple of years and it was lonely. I didn't even answer the telephone. I didn't even call friends back. I went into a very deep depression and completely isolated myself from the whole world after fully accepting there was no god for me. I lost who I was.

 

Now, I am reaching out again. I am turning around a new attitude. I think one just needs balance. I had burnt myself out. I am what they call an 'out-going' introvert. I had to learn how to be an extrovert because of my job. I was always an introvert but didn't know it so I tried to keep up with all the extroverts. I burn out very quickly from any type of noise. I have to force myself to socialize now. I have friends that love me and miss me. I have to learn how to be around my Christian friends with all their talk about how god saved their day and enjoy all the other aspects of them.

 

Most of all, I have learned now that people need to interact with one another. We need to encourage each other. Life is very difficult at times and it feels really good to be there for someone.

 

I am looking after a helpless 92 year old. At first, I was very resentful about this. I didn't want to take care of anybody anymore. Now, it turns out that she is my 92 year old 'baby' and she looks up at me and I melt because she appreciates me so much. I have to literally some days, pretend to be in her shoes because it can be very draining. I tucked her in her clean bed last night and she looked up at me like a little child and said, 'I don't know what I'd do without you'. My heart melted. I will get no brownie points from god for doing this. I now know that I do it with a heart that wants to help.

 

The whole world seems to be representing narcissism at it's best right now. I think we all need to work on this. We're all in this mess together and we need to help a little. I want to go to my grave knowing in my heart that I really tried. It's a battle for me right now because I got very bitter about life.

 

I think it's very OK to have certain boundaries. If someone is not working on themselves to become a better person, I can't be around them too long. They drain me. I know that you cannot change people - you can only influence them to a certain degree.

 

We all have to make our minds up to have a better attitude. Caring is a good thing. It gives one a nice feeling. Those are my thoughts this morning for what it's worth. Lol

 

*hug*

[ExCBooster]

I think you have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest issue. The benefits of altruism are likely traits that have survived due to selection pressures as we've evolved into social animals. There is actually a significant amount of literature on altruism, you may want up do a pub med search for abstracts to see how much data exists.

I think this was a great point.

 

It's not just our species, either. I don't want to spoil anything about this video (8 minutes, but full of surprises), but it definitely makes it clear what helping each other can get you, in terms of survival, for a social species. Also, if you look at it from an evolutionary perspective, it means that we're hard-wired to be pretty decent to each other. That's why you get warm fuzzies when you're nice - your brain is trying to get you high on it, and encourage that sort of behaviour. Pet the cat, feel a little better. Play get-the-stick with the dog, feel a little better.  Pet the shark, feel a little better (yeah, the impulse is so strong in our species that it sometimes overrides not-getting-eaten instincts). Help a human out, feel a little better. Even bacteria show altruistic behaviour, actually. E coli infected with a bacteriophage virus self-destruct, preventing the spread of the virus to other bacteria, even if they are from a strain that isn't related to the other E coli bacteria.

 

You got to the heart of it in your post: does the universe care whether we're there tomorrow? Not intrinsically, no. There is no morality, no purpose, in that sense. It's just "there." Yet, survival of the fittest, far from promoting selfish behaviour, determines what we think is morally good. We're not separate from the universe - it produced you, and your instincts towards selflessness. In a nutshell, yes, there IS such a thing as innate morality in a broad sense, and evolution is the smoking gun as to how and why.

[gingernut]

Everyone who answered here has pretty much answered your question already, but I would just add that although there might not be a heaven waiting for us when we die to reward us for good deeds done, but we do leave a legacy.  When all is said and done in life, our deeds and actions live on in other's memory.  Our loved ones either have a kind, selfless person who cared about others and tried to make the world a better place to remember and mourn, or they have a more self serving, what's in it for me type of person to remember....and probably not mourn as much.  We can either just be a taker or a giver and try to make the world a better place and ease other's suffering or we can be selfish pricks.  It is all a choice, of course.  Would we have any firefighters running into burning buildings to save our children or would they all think "I am not ready for my end to come....they should have just bought better smoke alarms", etc.  I don't think making the world a better place, thinking of others first, etc., has anything to do with being a Christian or getting a reward.  That is, if you will pardon me saying, just immaturity...like being a kid who won't do any homework or schoolwork unless his parents pay him. 

[Llwellyn]

The whole idea of survival of the fittest, Darwinism, social evolution -- I think all would be in alignment with living selfishly.  Make yourself the most "fit" possible; spend no unnecessary energy helping the "unfit."

 

What you've just described is definitely part of the Christian propaganda campaign against Darwinism.  Christians say that Darwinism necessarily leads to conclusions that are unacceptable to humans.  But this is not true.  Recommend that you read more about Darwinism in order to undo the slander that you've heard.

 

Our species is a success because of our ability to cooperate, compromise, communicate, and love each other.  Every child who lives to the age of reproduction does so because there are adults who are cooperating with each other to meet that child's needs, and who are empathizing with every little feeling of that child.  Humans being humans are not selfish.  They are self-sacrificing.

 

For most of us, our social and biological heritage given to us by our ancestors means that we feel the most joy when other people around us are feeling joy as well.  We cannot truly be happy knowing that other intelligent sensitive beings are miserable.  There are some sociopaths out there who do not feel empathy for the feelings of others.  But, those people are a minority and tend to be "culled" every generation by the rest of us.

 

Thus, no answer must be given to the question "why be selfess?" because no one needs a justification to do the things they love.

 

Insofar as Jesus described an ethic of universal benevolence, I don't think it is normal or common to feel empathy toward EVERY last person on earth. I definitely think that it is more natural to love people in your community, and your kin more than people on the other side of the world or to love people who antagonize you.  Jesus definitely was not keyed into a love for animals, which I think is a big part of human empathy.

[mymistake]

Acts that we call "selfless" are actually self interest.  The people who do them enjoy doing them.  As for evolution we are social creatures.  That means we survive (and are the fittest) as a team.  It is our concept of family.  Now nobody has the resources to help the entire population.  That is why we "dehumanize" outsiders.  It's a complex issue with much going on in the details.

[seven77]

Jesus was never selfless. Everything he did, he did to prove a point: that he was the Son of God, special and different from the rest of humanity and creation. He was an arrogant showboat who intentionally hid the meaning of his parables and engaged in doublespeak when it benefited him. He wasn't above letting somone put expensive perfume on his feet or accepting the altruism of others. Basically, he was the equivalent of a street magician/orator with a sign and a bowl for donations.

 

Once I thought about that and saw the Jesus of the Christian mythos for what he actually is, it became increasingly easier for me to start living for myself again. I will help people that I love, I do care about humanity as a whole. It's just that my current ethos as an Atheistic Satanist means that I no longer feel obligated to care about everyone else at the expense of myself. Blind altruism is not a good thing. It is a very bad thing. Lines should be drawn, people should have boundaries, and we must all learn to accept and respect one another's boundaries.

 

I saw a documentary some time ago that covered the story of a scientist named George Price. He was an evolutionary biologist who became a radical Christian. He gave everything to the poor, took altruism to unfathomable extremes and in the end, he died depressed and alone in a squatter's hole. That's what woke me up to the downsides of altruism.

[moanareina]

If as a christian you only did good because you where supposed to...because there was a God who would judge you at the end, it was not real good anyways. So its only good if you stop doing good things out of obligation.

 

I think the urge to do good has also to do with you being a social being. I mean, if you only look for yourself, you soon would be very lonely. There is a certain amount of care that is needed to build up a social net. So I think, contrary to the christian believe that says, there would be no good in us, there is lots of good in us because it is needed to survive.

 

And I think it does make a difference. Maybe not the way you have been taught. But for example by helping an old lady do her shopping or whatever, you make a difference in her life and give her the power to make a difference in someone else's life as well because she can use the strength she could spare on trying to do the shopping herself on something else and if it is only a smile or not complaining to her relatives as much...

 

So I think it is your choice to make a difference in the community or not and no one will judge you for not to. Its only that the community is missing out on someone making a difference. And the choice not to is fine because if you are not genuine in doing good, you are betraying yourself and thats not doing good either...

 

Just some thoughts.

[Geezer]

The glue that holds Christianity together is based on rewards and punishment. Altruistic acts are assumed to be rewarded in some recognizable way. Selfish acts are assumed to be punished in some identifiable way. Heaven being recognized as the ultimate reward for pleasing god and conversely hell being the ultimate punishment for disobeying god’s commandments.

 

Altruistic acts are merely the stepping stones to heaven and doing or thinking bad things that displease god is the slippery slope that eventually leads to hell. Pretty simple concept really and obviously very effective too.

 

As the good book says, “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.” Christianity mandates that the believer never puts their childish ways and thinking behind them.

[florduh]

Acts that we call "selfless" are actually self interest.  The people who do them enjoy doing them.  As for evolution we are social creatures.  That means we survive (and are the fittest) as a team.  It is our concept of family.  Now nobody has the resources to help the entire population.  That is why we "dehumanize" outsiders.  It's a complex issue with much going on in the details.

So much this.

[midniterider]

 

 

Why is lasting impact a factor in helping someone?

 

 

I guess because it always used to be for me.  Everything I ever did had lasting impact -- that's what I believed.  It was a great motivator.

 

Seeing selflessness without lasting impact is totally new for me.  I just haven't ever considered doing something that didn't have some sort of eternal value.  Without eternal value, I guess there is still value.  It's just much shorter lived.  So my question remains then -- is it worth it?  My whole value system has changed-- it's just difficult to adjust to I guess.

 

 

Is it worth it? Some things are. Some aren't. It's probably different for everyone. Some selfless things I would do and others I would not.

 

Some things you do may still have lasting impact if these things are passed down through the generations. Raising a child to be a decent human being has an incredible impact. And raising a kid is pretty selfless.

[Mongo]

This makes me wonder - why be selfless at all then if it has no lasting impact?  If nothing lasts, then why not spend my very few days (which used to number infinite and now number just over 70 years, if I'm that lucky) only to satisfy myself?  Why not live everyday to enjoy the most pleasurable experiences possible?

I love the question - I think it is deep an relevant.

 

As an ex-christian, I fully reject the version of selflessness taught by religion that says you should sacrifice your life for god. I don't believe that is a true act of selflessness - the promised rewards of peace or heavenly crowns or promises of damnation make a complete mockery of selfless actions that are linked to these important motivators.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not sure a true and genuine state of selflessness is even possible. To me, Monks who "sacrifice' a worldly existance to devote themselves to god are terribly self-absorbed. Being comsumed with god and failing to find time to give to others is hardly selfless to me - again it is self-absorbed. Ever read Eat, Pray, Love? It is a one year self-absorbed persuit of internal peace. A lot of things that some of us see (on the surface) as devotional or selfless are actually self-absorbed.

 

Don't get me wrong. Exercise is a personal activity that is anything but selfless and yet it is important. I can see how meditation or therapy is very important to people. There is nothing wrong with being good to yourself. Meditate, exercise and pray if these things help you. But they are at the root, aimed at improving yourself.

 

Setting aside the pure definition of the word 'selfless' and simply focusing on the problem of why we should give to others rather than ourselves, I think we have an interesting question.

 

In the secular view, there is no supreme justice or eternal reward or any promise that good things we do will reap an external benefit. So for me, the whole question rests on the existance of an internal benefit to a person who gives knowing that there will not be a reward. I am genuinely convinced the answer is yes (there is a benefit to giving when there is no reward) but I don't know the limitations of that benefit.

 

At this point the question becomes anecdotal unless someone wants to pull out psychology studies that can adequately answer the question. So let's get anecdotal.

 

If we accept that forgiveness is something you give to another person then why forgive at all. The point of an enduring hatred is to empower you to vanquish your enemies(obtaining justice, getting even, getting them to apologize etc.). Without that power, you will certainly lose so why forgive? Why bless others by letting bygones be bygones? The answer is that by letting go of the idea of vanquishing your enemy, you release the negative energy (hatred = a fuel = motivation) that can be redirected to positive and more beneficial efforts.

 - Your spouse is selfish and it 'eats you up'. Sometimes accepting this and forgiving them is the best way to deal with it. I'm not saying it always is or even mostly is. But sometimes, (yes, there are times) that it is the most beneficial response by the offended party.

 - Surely as ex-christians we've seen several grudge-holders in church. (Curiously, it seems to be the best place to find them!) Grudge-holders are not happy people - I don't want to be one. They would be happier if they would selflessly gave up their perceived loss to their offenders and moved on.

 - I have children. I give to them without expectation of direct reward. If they grow up responsible, able to care for themselves and happy - I will feel rewarded.

 

I have no trouble finding self-absorbed people who are troubled and unhappy. When I reverse the question, and look at happy and well adjusted people, I see generous and forgiving people.

 

So let's put this to the test...

 

There is a time in my life when the choices confronting me were to leave bad people and give up something I loved or to stay in a bad situation and stay with something that was very important to me. For argument sake, lets pretend that I chose 2 years in jail so that someone I loved could have a second chance. Or perhaps consider staying inside a cult or family or church is difficult but you need to survive it for 2 years. How do you get through living with these abusive people without lashing out or becoming angry?

 

In my darkest hours, I determined that the best way for me to get through a difficult time (I'm quoting my personal catch phrase) was to "Give light and life to the world around me".

 

As an athiest, I could not rationalize giving light and life to god or a version of god. Giving to the universe still sounded stilted and untrue. But to give to the world (that which surrounds me), I managed to release frustration and anger and (this is really important)... and be able to be a benefit to those that needed me dispite others that made my life difficult. My heart became lighter.

 

"Don't hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement" Godfather III

 

It is a bizarre quote and yet it is true. Forgiving and being willing to give more than I get allows me to think about more important things than getting 'my fair share'.

 

Now I fiind that when I volunteer I enjoy myself. When my mom died recently, I visited home and busied myself with doing anything that I thought others in my family would find a burden. Dealing with the funeral home. Finding pallbearers. Making sure people had rides. Trying to make sure none of my sisters were burdened with cooking for everyone else. No one thanked me or noticed. I don't need that. I want to make their lives better. I love them.

 

I see genuine value in giving.

 

As you've heard, "It is better to give than to receive".

 

What is interesting to me is that I could never have learned this lesson as a christian since their philosophy hinges on rewards and punishments. One need only listen to christians pray to see how self-absorbed is their religion. (Not all christians are like this but so so many are)

 

I'm in my 50s. It has taken a lot of experience to see the world differently than through the selfish eyes of a child.

 

Take care,

 

Mongo

[Blood]

The whole idea of survival of the fittest, Darwinism, social evolution -- I think all would be in alignment with living selfishly.  Make yourself the most "fit" possible; spend no unnecessary energy helping the "unfit."

 

This sounds terrible, but without a god to judge me on it, why is it not true, from a completely logical perspective?

 

You're confusing a lot of different things here.

 

Social Darwinism was a political theory that had nothing to do with with Charles Darwin's ideas. 

 

Later, Social Darwinism merged with ideas on the supremacy of Capitalism to influence a philosophy called Objectivism. 

 

Objectivism, properly modified, has now become the guiding political theory of the Republican Party in the USA. The only problem they had with Objectivism was that it was atheistic. So they fixed that problem by injecting fundamentalist Christianity/Calvinism into the theory. 

 

None of this has anything to do with atheism. Objectivism used to be atheistic, but since it merged with Calvinism that is no longer the case. 

[Blood]

 

I saw a documentary some time ago that covered the story of a scientist named George Price. He was an evolutionary biologist who became a radical Christian. He gave everything to the poor, took altruism to unfathomable extremes and in the end, he died depressed and alone in a squatter's hole. That's what woke me up to the downsides of altruism.

 

Fascinating. I've never heard of him. I'll have to search out that documentary. 

[Galien]

I think women and men see it differently also. Women are trained from birth to look after people, being a mother means you lose yourself for decades. Any time you try and do anything for yourself and not others people call you selfish.

[seven77]

Fascinating. I've never heard of him. I'll have to search out that documentary.

 

 

I will save you the trouble: All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. It was actually a 3 part series on the BBC. I downloaded it awhile back because I am a serious documentary nerd. It is a very thought-provoking series, as are most of Adam Curtis' works. Part 3, The Machine in the Monkey and the Monkey in the Machine, is the part that talks about George Price.

 

I do not believe that it is available on youtube. It is available on Vimeo though, according to El Goog, the god of the internet searches and info-juju...lol.