What Was One Of The Strongest Tools In Deconverting?

[ApostateAwoken]

I'm curious because I am currently in the process of deconversion myself, and although there are obviously tons of helpful resources, which one was one of the most effective for you? 

 

[moanareina]

Hm...

Actually there have been books that I read that lead to questions that where already there but somehow put in words by someone else and then it was one decision after another and one of them was, to trust in myself and not rely on stuff people tell me or that is written in books.

 

I thought to find truth I had to turn inwards instead of constantly looking for it in the outside world...as I did all those years in church...where you wait for God to tell you something through your pastor, through other people through an ancient book that supposedly "talks", though the voice of God that I supposedly should be able to hear but hardly ever recognized, through "dreams and visions"...

 

So the last book on the matter I read was Pagan Christianity (which still is a christian book but is laying out how modern church and christianity is based on paganism and not the bible) and then I left it all at rest.

 

So I was more intuitively lead away from all of it and not so much through research. But I think there is lots of good materials out there. For me, I just needed to start relying on myself before trusting in ANY resources again.

[slave2six]

I read a lot at the outset but the clincher for me was, in fact, the Bible. When I realized that the whole of Christianity stands or falls on the question of whether the "Fall of Man" story is in any way true, it became a simple quest:

1. It is not literally true.
    
2. As allegory, it's really meaningless. There's no point in a literal cross if there was no literal "fall."

That about did it for me.

 

Everything else was purely tangential. 

[slave2six]

For me, I just needed to start relying on myself before trusting in ANY resources again.

 

That's really the key. I spent my life listening to what other people had to say and never took up the responsibility of asking and answering the questions myself. Once I did, it was all over.

[Overcame Faith]

Reading things like this in the Bible helped me.

 

 

21 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, ² saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. ³ If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

⁴ This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

⁵ “Say to Daughter Zion,
    ‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
    and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”^[a]

⁶ The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. ⁷ They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on.

 

Matthew 21:1-7

 

As compared to this:

 

 

¹⁴ Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written:

¹⁵ “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion;
    see, your king is coming,
    seated on a donkey’s colt.”^[f]

 

John 12:14-15

 

Notice how each Gospel writer portrays Jesus doing exactly what the two varying "prophecies" required.  In Matthew, the "prophecy" required Jesus to (somehow) ride both a donkey and her foal and that is how the writer of Matthew portrayed the event.  John's version of the "prophecy", however, only required Jesus to ride a donkey's colt and that is how that Gospel writer portrayed the event.

 

It is this obvious manipulation which is a major clue that what is depicted is not what really happened.

[pawn]

I just said to my self one day, "What if the entire Bible really is mythical fiction?  What if its all just bullshit just like Islam or other phony religions?"  That question ended it all for me, because suddenly the entire bible, and all the inconsistencies with my christian faith made total sense.... for the first time, it all made sense, at that point I knew it deep, the bible was just another phny religious book, just like the Quran and others... it was all bullshit, and I fell for it.  It took a little while to get over the initial shock of admitting Jesus and "god" were just delusions, and it was all based on a mythical book, and strong cult... but once that seed was planted in my mind, there was no turning back.  My deconversion  took just a few days, it was very fast, I went from praying believer to atheist almost overnight!  It was shocking, but I like rapid shifts.

[mymistake]

The Bible.  That is the sections of the Bible that are not favorite verses.  Trying to read all the way through the Bible brings up all kinds of questions.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

For me it was examining each of my beliefs with a critical, rational, objective view.  Asking myself, "How would I prove this is true to someone else?" was the key to realizing that everything I had ever believed in was nothing more than unsubstantiated assertion.  Also I asked myself concerning each of my beliefs, "Do I believe this because I really believe it?  Or do I believe it simply because somebody else told me I should without offering me any evidence as to its validity or veracity?"  That exercise helped me understand how deeply my indoctrination went, which gave me some idea of how much work my deconversion would be. 

 

In my view, your own brain is the strongest tool you have.  The problem is, if you're anything like me, you were never taught how to use it when dealing with beliefs.  Once you get started, though, you should find that using your own mind to assess the beliefs you hold will be both challenging and rewarding.

 

I hope this helps.

[leopardus]

The complete lack of efficacy of prayer.

Contradictions in the bible .

99.9% utter hypocrites in the church and the lack of people actually becoming better human beings upon conversion.

The fact that biblegod never puts in any kind of appearance.

The realization that there is in fact no relationship with Jesus for anyone.

The wildly contradictory views of believers as to what god was "really" like or "really" wanted.

 

Those are a few.

[Deva]

I did tons of reading.  But on top of that, it was a determination to discover the truth, no matter where it led me.

 

There were big gaps in my knowledge even after I left college. I had almost no one teach me about evolution, for example, and so I had to read a lot about that in order to grasp it.  Then I saw the enormous incompatibility between evolution by natural selection, which the fossil evidence and tons of other evidence, points to-- and "God did it."

 

I do think that observing the natural world closely will also help.  I watched birds very closely for many years. I saw wild birds hatch, live and die. Nature can be very instructive. It is all in how you observe. If you look with preconceptions or a bunch of conclusions going on, or just look, makes a big difference. I guess you could say it is "awareness." I learned to be aware of everything around me. I still think I am a lot more aware of what is going on in my surroundings than most, from what I can see.

 

Finally, I read a lot about Church history and what is known about early Christianity.  I didn't know anything of modern Bible scholarship or the history of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. When I looked into it, that was a real eye-opener.

 

After I finished all those studies and experiences, in the late 1990's, along with exploration of eastern religion and philosophy, I was pretty much done. I was in my early 40s. It took me that long to free myself.  I still get the pull to go back to church now and then, but not often, and its mostly nostalgia.

 

One other important thing I realized was the invalidity of an authority figure saying "its true because its in the Bible, or Jesus said it, or it is a historical fact."   Now, instead of accepting someone's word, I respond, "so YOU say."  Demonstrate how it relates to my life today, in the here and now. I don't really care what some historical figure had to say, what matters is does what they say have any meaning?  I began to slowly realize that it doesn't even matter if the event actually happened or not or if the person actually lived or not.  The Bible is almost totally irrelevant to how we live in the modern world.

 

Sorry that it is a lot of tools, and not one. I can't narrow it down to one. I had to use all of them.

[ApostateAwoken]

 

For me, I just needed to start relying on myself before trusting in ANY resources again.

 

That's really the key. I spent my life listening to what other people had to say and never took up the responsibility of asking and answering the questions myself. Once I did, it was all over.

 

 

This does sound really important... that's the damn thing about Christianity, you're taught that you are unreliable, fundamentally. Does anyone have any tips on learning to trust myself, building up self-esteem, etc. instead of just blindly following everything I've been told? Having suffered through childhood indoctrination I think that some critical thinking skills were discouraged, but I want them again. Agh, this whole thing sucks

[milesaway]

What started my deconversion was seeing the horrible behavior out of christians at every church I visited. Should these people have been the most moral, decent, kindhearted people I'd ever met in my life? Yeah, they should have, but they weren't. Try to reconcile the news stories about church leaders molesting kids, ruining people's lives in other countries and treating people like shit with what xtianity's denominations preach. It's not possible.  After I left, the intellectual aspects fell into place, as what I found on my own answered what nobody at any of the churches would.

[moanareina]

 

 

For me, I just needed to start relying on myself before trusting in ANY resources again.

 

That's really the key. I spent my life listening to what other people had to say and never took up the responsibility of asking and answering the questions myself. Once I did, it was all over.

 

 

This does sound really important... that's the damn thing about Christianity, you're taught that you are unreliable, fundamentally. Does anyone have any tips on learning to trust myself, building up self-esteem, etc. instead of just blindly following everything I've been told? Having suffered through childhood indoctrination I think that some critical thinking skills were discouraged, but I want them again. Agh, this whole thing sucks

 

 

It is a decision you have to take every now and then...when you realize that you started to listen to others again.

 

Actually traveling helped...because I found out that you need to get the informations yourself do some research on your own (bus schedules and how you can get where...) instead of asking locals. Every time I trusted in the word of locals I found out, that they had been wrong or only partially right and there had been another ways to do it and earlier or later buses etc. It was not so much on spiritual matters but it helped with that too.

 

Also observe other people...how they tell you a story or a fact or whatever. They hardly ever do any research and just tell you whatever. Then you know, they don't know any better than you. Why should you listen to them?

 

I tend to forget all of that...but then I get reminded every now and then...the perks of working at a place with more than 1000 employees...most of them not really that smart getting their opinions and informations from tabloids.

[nptphotos]

To take the OP's subject literally, the tool was the internet.  I had all the typical questions all ex-christians had, but if I had had them in the 1970's, they could not have easily been answered. Whether the content is good, bad or indifferent, it's all there in your livingroom, just seconds away.  I think of the internet as a potential religion killer.

[moanareina]

To take the OP's subject literally, the tool was the internet.  I had all the typical questions all ex-christians had, but if I had had them in the 1970's, they could not have easily been answered. Whether the content is good, bad or indifferent, it's all there in your livingroom, just seconds away.  I think of the internet as a potential religion killer.

 

So what are the typical questions all ex-christians had?

[gingernut]

I didn't want to read anything from anyone at first.  I was so sick of being told what to think.  After I had pretty much completely de-converted and knew I didn't believe in Christianity anymore, I was desperate to know if anyone else felt that way.  Then I began to watch some videos on youtube, read a few articles here and there.  Being that I came from a "David Barton/Wallbuilders" type of fundy background, I also began to read what the founding fathers actually wrote.  Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, etc.  "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine was the most enjoyable for me.  I kept thinking, "this guy read my mind" because he had written so many years ago everything I had been thinking. 

[midniterider]

I'm curious because I am currently in the process of deconversion myself, and although there are obviously tons of helpful resources, which one was one of the most effective for you? 

 

Courage. Just enough courage to say I am not going to let "God" push me around. I refuse to feel fear nor guilt nor shame any longer! God shriveled up and disappeared after that. But my foundation of life was built around skepticism until I was 30. I was only Christian from 30 to 40. So it was probably easier for me to shed Christianity under these circumstances than if I had been born and raised into it.

[Woodsy]

For me it was Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason."  This book opened my eyes wide.  I was so amazed and a little scared when he went through the bible and showed how wrong it is. I came to the conclusion that even Jesus wasn't real.  In the middle of reading that book, I gathered up all my bibles and christian books and burned them and sensed a feeling of joy and peace.  

[Voice]

At the time of de-conversion all I had was the bible, and the prophets offered the tools I needed to stand up to the church and the elders of it.

After that, my recovery began with an old college plane geometry text book. I had to learn how to think.

[Woodsy]

For me it was examining each of my beliefs with a critical, rational, objective view.  Asking myself, "How would I prove this is true to someone else?" was the key to realizing that everything I had ever believed in was nothing more than unsubstantiated assertion.  Also I asked myself concerning each of my beliefs, "Do I believe this because I really believe it?  Or do I believe it simply because somebody else told me I should without offering me any evidence as to its validity or veracity?"  That exercise helped me understand how deeply my indoctrination went, which gave me some idea of how much work my deconversion would be. 

 

In my view, your own brain is the strongest tool you have.  The problem is, if you're anything like me, you were never taught how to use it when dealing with beliefs.  Once you get started, though, you should find that using your own mind to assess the beliefs you hold will be both challenging and rewarding.

 

I hope this helps.

I believed because someone else told me I should.  Thus began my indoctrination as a child and just ended this past year.  My deconversion has been difficult but, lately, I'm at peace.  I am like you, Professor, I was never taught how to think and reason for myself.....until now.  And how wonderful to be able to read and learn and really begin to live.

[Bhim]

For me, examining the religion I was born with and examining what I had lost by converting to Christianity was the best tool for my de-conversion.  I'm assuming you were raised Christian (because that's the case for most people here), so I'm guessing that wouldn't work with you.  But I guess that if I were to generalize from my own experience, I'd say that exploring alternative schools of thought to Christianity would be beneficial.  It could be atheism, philosophy, another religion, or whatever else.  Preferably something that doesn't require you to believe that people can go to an eternal hell for believing the wrong thing.

 

If I may play armchair psychologist for a moment here, as I see it Christians have been indoctrinated into basing their lives around some central worldview.  And I choose the word "worldview" as opposed to "morality" quite deliberately, since Christianity is far more than a set of rules to live by.  It's basically a set of intellectual positions on the nature of the universe and existence.  Replacing this worldview with absolutely nothing can be difficult.  That's why it might be helpful to ask questions that you thought you had the answer to as a Christian (e.g. how did the universe come about? why am I here? etc.) and fill in the answers yourself.

 

Just my thoughts on the issue of deconversion, based on my personal experience.  Your milage may vary.

[NeverAgainV]

Yes Deva, It used to make me wonder how just because something was the the "olden days" that somehow their opinion had more validity than someone living TODAY in the NOW.

 

I did tons of reading.  .....

One other important thing I realized was the invalidity of an authority figure saying "its true because its in the Bible, or Jesus said it, or it is a historical fact."   Now, instead of accepting someone's word, I respond, "so YOU say."  Demonstrate how it relates to my life today, in the here and now. I don't really care what some historical figure had to say, what matters is does what they say have any meaning? ..... The Bible is almost totally irrelevant to how we live in the modern world.

.....

[NeverAgainV]

The main reason for my deconversion was the Bible itself and Christians, especially the "we are god's elite" when in reality they were no different than any

other human beings. I saw NO real compassion or change, all I saw was them warming seats on sundays...and that was supposedly being spiritual and following Jesus? 

 

All of the petty rules began to really make me think, if there was a "God" how the hell were these things so damn important???

To be a True Believer you Must:

• Only use the KJV bible
• No musical instruments in the church service
• No celebrating Christmas
• No celebrating Easter
• No celebrating Halloween
• No attending other churches different from the "true church^tm"
• All of the ridiculous bullshit rules, making sure you go to "bible study" and NEVER miss a church service sermon=indoctrination session

I began to see that bible god cares about bullshit being in "church" to listen to some megalomaniac spew from the pulpit, but there was not much

emphasis on

• Helping the poor OUTSIDE of the church
• Social justice
• Trying to make the world a better place as the true church^tm was only focused on ITSELF and it's members
• helping disenfranchised and true victims

The church's teachings where Jesus said "the poor ye shall have with you always..." was the verse the pastor used to convince people in the church club

that the poor DESERVE to be that way and STAY that way. In the bible the story of where one guy got mad that expensive oil was used to annoint Jesus, the guy said "hey we could have sold that to help the poor...." the bible put that man in a bad way saying he just wanted to sell the oil and use the money for himself so that was used to discourage from donating to the poor and hurting that "those places don't use the money you donate to help anyhow...."

 

Also in the 10 commandments it seemed God was more interested in "worship" and not missing church- and how people used his name, words, all trivialities compared to having commandments like

• Thou shalt not own another human being
• and Thou shalt not rape
• Thou shalt not have sex slaves
• Thou shalt not deal deceitfully with others (i guess in the OT times it was a-OK to take advantage of someone who wasn't a Jew...but you had to deal truly with your jewish brethren...fuck anyone else!)

The stories of the supposed "fathers of faith"...well I won't even get started as to what assholes I think they were! They were a bunch of liars, deceivers and

doing whatever they could to get ahead and God seemed to put his stamp of approval on it. Example: like Jacob CHEATING Esau out of his birthright???

WTF???

 

Well, there's more but I've blathered enough. You get the idea. Once I really read the bible and treated it as I would any other book and NOT as god's word, I began to see way too much hypocrisies, contradictions and lies.

[disillusioned]

For me it was education, both in the formal and the informal sense. I spent most of my time at university studying mathematics and physics, and I managed to pick up quite an interest in philosophy along the way. This was certainly instrumental in my deconversion. I was also working at a bookstore at the time, so I was literally surrounded by more books than I could possibly read. But I did what I could. And then, of course, there's the internet. But I think the most important thing is to think for yourself. Immerse yourself in as many different perspectives as you can. Consider them all carefully. Then form your own.

[RipVanWinkle]

The straw that broke the camel's back was a small book entitled "The Dark Side of Christian History".  It provided a summary of the horrible things Xtians have done in the name of god and Jesus. I thought, this can't be the legacy of the Son of God of God. He would never have let these things be done in His name. I had been thinking about the inconsistency of the bible and other short-comings for several years. This history was all i needed. I also realized the ministers I had known had not been honest with me. They never told us anything negative about Xtian history. That was dishonesty by omission.   The other half of a half truth is a lie.    They were afraid to tell us the truth. If there were a god it could handle the truth and so could we.    bill