First Question

[disillusioned]

I have two questions. Well, actually three, but your answer to the first will direct you to answer one of two possible follow up questions.

 

1) Do you accept Christianity purely based on faith, or do you also rely on reason?

 

If you only rely on faith...

 

2a) Why faith in Christianity rather than another religion?

 

If you also rely on reason...

 

2b) What line of reasoning leads you to conclude that Christianity is true?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Do you hate your father and mother?  Or do you honor them?

[falemon]

Would you like a signed photograph of me when I was in my first Bond movie? 

[falemon]

Now a more serious question:

 

What exactly do you think you could show us or say that could change our beliefs? And also do you realise how insensitive it is you being here?

 

---

 

 

 

Bearing in mind we are well studied and there is nothing new you could 'reveal'. We've experienced everything you've experienced a long time ago. We were just like you and we know what it is like, but then we got up and realised, as we stood, that right before our eyes was a lie. It's something that just doesn't go away. It's more than just a doubt or a misunderstanding of text, or because we hadn't received the feeling of God's love. We've all experienced that.

 

Once I was praying and saw a flash, I was filled with the holy spirit because as I saw that heavenly flash of light I felt the entire power of the universe. God had truly spoken to me through an insight that required no words. Then all of a sudden I realised something about that flash, it was not God, God did not communicate with me, it was just the flash of a camera taking photos.

 

That didn't shake my faith at all though because I was a strong believer

[midniterider]

'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

~Colossians 1:15

 

 

I will read your ;ink.

 

So where is this image? I don't see it. Nobody ever sees Jesus, nor does Jesus ever speak with people. Jesus is really just a mental construct that you've created in your imagination. You tell your "Jesus" what to say and do, working his puppet strings and convince yourself that this is some almighty God... that never does anything more than random chance does.

 

Why do Christians need to argue 'for' the existence of something that should be self-evident? Why do Christians need to spout scripture showing that God exists or cite signs of prophecies getting ready to be fulfilled? Just bring God out and lets have a big chat. Christians got nothing besides a ridiculous book and their imagination club they go to every week where once again they won't see Jesus.

[Overcame Faith]

So where is this image?

 

The image is here twenty-two times.

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/arielknutson/people-who-found-jesus-in-their-food

[sdelsolray]

Thanks, anyone who reads the post by the atheist should agree (or agree to the possibility)

that he did exists in history.

The miracles I accept by faith.

Please define "faith", for purposes of this religious discussion.

[bornagainathiest]

I'm new. I'm glad I found this forum.

I've spent some time reading the threads in the Lion's Den, but

instead of jumping in on those I would begin by starting my first thread.

 

Reply with one question.

Ex Christians, atheist, agnostics, Christians, seekers, all welcome.

 

Hello Ironhorse.

 

I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe.  Since I can put one question to you, here it is.

.

.

.

 

Do you want me to demonstrate this to you?

.

.

.

 

Please think carefully before replying.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[RipVanWinkle]

"There are ancient documents other than the Bible that mention Jesus."  ironhorse

 

Are you aware that no ancient documents contemporaneous with Jesus life have been discovered that mention Jesus or his "miracles"? Think of that. If god wanted people to believe in Jesus do you think he would allow that to happen? Woody Allen had it right when he said god does not play dice with the universe; he plays hide and seek. If he actually existed (which he doesn't) that is exactly the game he has been playing in order for the world to have developed in the manner it has. If he were real, his method of disclosing himself to his "creatures" is about as convoluted and indirect as it could be. It would be a silly game if he were real. Do you believe he loves people or not? If he does wouldn't he want all to know him and be saved by him? Of course he would! Was he not smart enough to have created a more effective way of letting folks know of his existence, love and forgiveness? He must be if the characteristics you attribute to him are true. If  they are his characteristics, then his conduct is totally inconsistent with those characteristics. Therefore that god cannot exist. Invent another one.  bill

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Here are several questions that I'd like you to answer:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59533-if-jesus-is-god/

[ironhorse]

I will go off topic to say a few things:

 

About a few of the accusations and assumptions that have been made about me.

I've never understood how some think they know you without really knowing you.

I will try to give you a better understanding of me,

 

-I have not assumed you were all atheists. Read my first post. Reading what people actually

 write is always a good idea.

 

-I'm here in the Lion's Den because this is a place for Christians.

 

-I don't have anything new to tell you. How can that be said? Many here might have

 something new to tell me or teach me. 

 

-I read many of your blogs. On my first post I said I have been visiting here.

 My story will be my first Blog,

 

-I will say this from my story: I was not indoctrinated but taught from a early age to

read, study and always ask questions. Never assume something is true until you have examined

all sides.

 

-My father was a Baptists minister and a college professor. He taught psychology.

 My parents were both readers. Our home had a fairly large library. Books not only about

 Christianity but books on the world's religions. There was a very old copy of Darwin's

 Origin of the Species.  It might have been a first edition. I read many of them. I was encouraged

 to question the Christian faith. I did. in college I read all the books on religions I could.

 

-This is not the first time my faith has been questioned or I have defended it.

 

-Thanks for reading this.

 

I'm sure I missed a few things I meant to say but back

to  the topic. I'm having trouble doing the copy and paste and writing on my Blog. If you can

help send me a private message,

[MerryG]

-I will say this from my story: I was not indoctrinated but taught from a early age to

read, study and always ask questions. Never assume something is true until you have examined

all sides.

 

 

Then you have personally witnessed miracles (on the order of, say, raising people from the dead) and/or you have dispassionately examined the factual evidence for such miracles and found it convincing? Please share that evidence.

 

Also, if you were raised to understand the value of asking questions, then you surely understand how outrageous it is to invite us to answer questions, then ignore most of them.

 

If you were raised to read and study, then surely you will examine the information people have offered in links, videos, and their own words -- and you will either give counterarguments based on evidence or you'll at least give these matters serious intellectual consideration. Maybe you'll even admit you're wrong about something.

 

If we have presumed to know you when we don't, then by all means correct us. But by the same token, please don't presume you know us. It's obvious by your few posts that you're doing something we've all seen many times before in the Lion's Den. You're preaching to us and you're dodging our perfectly valid questions. Which shows that you don't know us at all. And our response may show that we don't know YOU, but we certainly know the old, familiar, preach-dodge-and-weave tactics you're using.

 

Answer our questions. Answer them with evidence, not quotes, not statements of faith which count for nothing. Answer them. I challenge you.

[ironhorse]

One last time. I will answer questions only about the topic.

It's known as staying on topic, I will answer a question that is closely

related to the topic like I did with the question of God's existence. I did go off

topic and said so in a my last post to explain more about me.

 

I did not say I had seen the miracles told the bible . I have seen a cut finger heal.

I have seen a baby born.

 

I did not invite you here. Only you know why you came.

 

I will and do spend time reading and watching the videos.

 

I thought I was allowed to preach according to the forum rules.

 

I have never had a problem admitting I was wrong about something. I've been

wrong about many things in the past.

 

I have said I know you, I said I have been visiting and reading post and Blogs for awhile.

 

And I also know the tactic of spinning a thread off topic to get away from the actually topic.

 I try not to chase rabbits,

[MerryG]

-This is not the first time my faith has been questioned or I have defended it.

 

BTw, I can't speak for others. But I don't believe anybody here is interested in questioning your faith. Whatever you choose to believe is your own business, and frankly if you didn't come here to preach at us and pretend to be interested in our questions, we wouldn't give a flying fark whether you believe in Jesus Christ, speckled unicorns, or the divinity of Justin Bieber.

 

What we're asking you to do -- and asking over and over and over -- is for you to give your evidence and examine and respond to evidence presented by ex-christians. Evidence, evidence, evidence. Not claims, quotes, or declarations of faith.

 

Also, so far you haven't defended anything at all. Saying, "I just have faith" isn't a defense that any Ex-C is going to buy and you surely must know that.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Okay, answer the question I asked.  Do you hate your father and mother or do you honor them?

[MerryG]

I did not invite you here. Only you know why you came.

 

I thought I was allowed to preach according to the forum rules.

 

"I did not invite you here." Horsefeathers. Your first post is a clear invitation, even if you didn't make it all gold-ink and scripty.

 

"Only you know why you came." Well, yeah. That's stating the obvious. But I can pretty much tell you that people come to threads like this in the (always vain) hope that a christian will actually answer our hard questions.

 

"I thought I was allowed to preach ..." You are. And you also know -- according to those same forum rules and according to what else you've seen in the Lion's Den -- that we're not just going to sit here like Sunday Schoolers, accepting your preachings as Revealed Truth.

 

For pete's sake, we are EX-CHRISTIANS. If you think you can preach at us, go ahead. But be prepared for the inevitable response. And be prepared to present EVIDENCE.

[florduh]

Once again, ironhorse, this is a tough crowd. Many were quite damaged by the very religion you promote. Most here also had faith in the unseen (and undemonstrated) as you do. We have been in your shoes.

 

None of us left the faith on a lark, nor did we turn our backs on God because we wanted to sin. Most of us have very good, valid reasons for leaving Christianity. It was with painful prayer and reflection we finally gave up the fantasy. 

 

There are stages of deconversion, and anger is one of them. Expect some venom. This is primarily a place for ex-Christians to heal.

[par4dcourse]

Ooooo. He's getting pissy already. He may play the hell card at any moment!

[ironhorse]

Why do I believe Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God?

 

My evidence:

-The scriptures teach that faith is the evidence of things unseen. I believe that verse.

-I believe in my spirit through prayer. I believe by the love I see in some people.

 

-I also have some other non faith reasons.

-After studying the world's religions the message of Jesus and the Bible was the only

 one, to me, that made any sense. All religions contain truth but in Christianity I found

 the truth.

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several

 times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't

 believe it.

-I have read many books by atheists but I am not convinced.

-I have read books by people abused by churches or people and left the faith. I can see why.

-The wonders of this universe, our planet and all living things speak to me that there is

 a Creator.

 

Those are a few.  I'm not preaching at you to believe me or anything.

 

"Trust yourself to know the way that prove true in the end.  Trust yourself." ~Dylan

[mymistake]

 

I thought I was allowed to preach according to the forum rules.

 

Oh yes, it certainly is allowed in this section.  However everybody else in the community is allowed to get pissed off at your behavior and tell you what they think of your religion.  So don't act like the rule makes you immune from everybody else's anger.

 

FYI - so far I have not seen you do anything that annoys me.  But this isn't my first rodeo and I'm sure you will wind up like the 8,000 other preachers that came before you.  You will piss everybody off.  Then you will get mad when we make fun of your religion.  Then you will storm off or you will make underhanded personal attacks until somebody sends you away.

 

Less than 1% of the Christians who come here are willing to talk about other things instead of religion.

[MerryG]

My evidence:

 

Not one single thing you have said on this forum constitutes evidence. You keep stating what you feel or believe. You quote or refer to scripture. You say (I paraphrase) "Babies! Therefore Jesus." NONE of that is evidence. Of anything. Except the fact that you have subjective opinions (as does everybody).

 

You continue to ignore the very direct and specific questions people ask you. You continue not to offer one solid, checkable, reproducible, logical, consistent bit of evidence that we can subject to rigorous testing.

 

You are more polite and conversational than some of the preachers who have come before you. Otherwise, you're following in their exact footsteps.

 

You want credibility? Then respond to specific questions with checkable evidence.

 

Or, since you're obviously more comfortable with the subjective ... answer the question Redneck Prof has asked you twice now. It's a very simple question requiring only the kind of statement of feeling or belief that you favor. Go for it.

[mymistake]

To be fair guys,  Ironhorse invited us to ask one question each.  He never said he would answer any of them.  (And by now you guys should not be surprised if you get no answers)

[ironhorse]

I never claimed immunity.

 

Ridiculing my faith will not upset me. That's expected.

 

I'm glad I haven't annoyed you.

 

I will not get mad and storm off.

I'm here to stay.

I have never made any personal attacks in any forum on the net.

 

I am one of those less than one per cent Christians.

Where I can I talk about other things?

[mymistake]

 

I have never made any personal attacks in any forum on the net.

 

 

 

Correct.  I was making a prediction.  I could be wrong.

 

 

 

I am one of those less than one per cent Christians.

Where I can I talk about other things?

 

I would recommend that you not post in the testimonial section.  Reading it is fine but we take it very seriously.  The News and Current Event, and Totally Off Topic sections are find for talking about other things and you are welcome to do so there.  The Lion's Den is mostly for fighting about Christianity.  If you feel like you are being hounded just say the safe phrase: "I will not defend my faith".  Nobody is going to make you give up your faith.  If you let us do our thing we will let you do yours.  Just expect that many people here will be hostile to religion so don't be surprised if we mock it a lot.

[ironhorse]

Thanks,

 

I can do the news and currents events and the other

forum is for other topics.

I'll check them out Saturday.