First Question

[slave2six]

One last time. I will answer questions only about the topic.

It's known as staying on topic, 

 

What topic? You came in here and basically said, "Here I am, Ask be anything you want." 

 

Perhaps you'd get further by answering the questions posed to you:

 

Why are you on this site?

 

- Are you here to instruct?

 

- Are you here because you have questions and want to learn?

 

- Are you trolling?

 

Please don't throw Bible verses at us or talk to us like we don't know everything there is to know about Christianity. 

[Ravenstar]

Let's deconstruct this, shall we?  First of all you invited everyone here to ask questions, but as of yet you have provided no other answer other than "I believe". Okay, let's move on...

 

Why do I believe Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God?

 

My evidence:

-The scriptures teach that faith is the evidence of things unseen. I believe that verse.

Scripture is NOT evidence, it is a claim… (That particular verse was destroyed just recently in another thread.)  If you CLAIM scripture is evidence then you must first establish that it is credible. There are a lot of books out there, and a lot of sacred texts, why is yours more believable than any others? (I'll give a few examples of sacred scripture: The Qur'an, the Upanishads, the Bhagadavita, The Tao Te Ching, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Pyramid Texts, The Eddas, the Enuma Elish…are some)

 

-I believe in my spirit through prayer. I believe by the love I see in some people.

You believe in your spirit? What exactly does that mean? I see love in some people - but they frequently aren't christians… how do you explain that? What does love, if any kind of person is capable of it, and that is very true - have to do with religion? Actually, surprisingly I have found non-christians to demonstrate love more consistently than christians. More honestly, too.

 

-I also have some other non faith reasons.

-After studying the world's religions the message of Jesus and the Bible was the only

 one, to me, that made any sense. All religions contain truth but in Christianity I found

 the truth.

Oh, Please DO TELL me what other religions you have studied, because I HAVE… quite a few of them. Please explain your understanding of these religions you studied. Thanks

 

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several

 times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't

 believe it.

Please tell me which books on evolution you have read!!!!  Are you a biologist? I would have to say you have come to this conclusion because you don't understand it - plus, Darwin is a LONG time ago… we have TONS of RECENT real world evidence, that is predictive, that PROVES his theory, and expands on it. Or maybe you should not get inoculated, since you don't believe in the basis of inoculation? Evolution is a FACT - there's no question about it anymore. Soooo, WHY don't you believe it?

~ However, evolution has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in a supernatural being.

 

-I have read many books by atheists but I am not convinced.

I became an agnostic atheist long before I read any atheist literature. Just now getting into it. I studied the Bible and christian doctrines and history.

 

-I have read books by people abused by churches or people and left the faith. I can see why.

I was never abused by anyone in the church. I just came to the conclusion from a LOT of very sincere seeking that it was all bunk.

 

-The wonders of this universe, our planet and all living things speak to me that there is

 a Creator.

There are very many scientific reasons why the universe is the way it is, nature IS awesome, but I fail to see a creator's hand in it. It's pretty, but EXTREMELY hostile to human life. It's also so incredibly random and huge that the idea that this tiny piece of dust in a small galaxy of BILLIONS of galaxies was all created just for people is narcissism at it's ultimate expression.

 

Those are a few.  I'm not preaching at you to believe me or anything.

 

"Trust yourself to know the way that prove true in the end.  Trust yourself." ~Dylan

 

It's good to trust yourself, it's also good to examine your beliefs and seek out the truth.

 

Now, tell me why your god is a bloodthirsty monster that supports and even commands rape, blood sacrifice, genocide, infanticide and general douchebaggery? (but can't win a battle against people with iron chariots  LOL)

 

Tell me how extortion translates into love?

 

Explain to me how 70 or so years of 'missing the mark' deserves eternal torture?

 

Please explain to me how Adam and Eve could have possible known right from wrong BEFORE they had the knowledge of right and wrong?

 

Please explain to me why this god would spend the vast majority of his book telling people EXACTLY and in EXCRUCIATING DETAIL how he wanted them to do things… and then just say, "Oh, changed my mind, doesn't matter anymore".

 

Why is it okay for me to own an American? Or keep virgin girls for myself but slaughter all the boys? (well, not ME obviously - I'm just a silly woman, maybe my brother)

 

Why did Jesus say he came not to abolish the law?.. you DO know there are 613 commandments, right?

 

Explain to me how it is remotely moral for an innocent person to pay for a guilty one's crime.

 

So, dear, are you here to learn? Or will you become another drive-by?

[slave2six]

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several  times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't  believe it.

 

That's like saying, "I have read the works of Robert Buist and many books written about viruses and I don't believe it."

 

Evolution is not a faith-based option. It is a theory, an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts.

 

There is so much data to support the theory of evolution that to "not believe it" is akin to plugging your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "La la la la la" at the top of your lungs.

 

You refuse to look at facts and accept that there is one, only one, theory that accounts for all the facts that we have.

 

In the real world, this is called "stupidity."

[slave2six]

To be fair guys,  Ironhorse invited us to ask one question each.  He never said he would answer any of them.  (And by now you guys should not be surprised if you get no answers)

 

That's true. But it's still frustrating. I keep hoping to find an intelligent person on the other end of the line and I keep getting disappointed.

[slave2six]

I never claimed immunity.

 

Ridiculing my faith will not upset me. That's expected.

 

I want to be clear. Until you provide some intelligent dialogue with supporting data, it is not your faith but your intellect that I am ridiculing.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Science has not been able to prove God does not exists.

Science has also not been able to prove that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist, or Big Foot, or Leprechauns.  Is this a sufficient reason to accept that they do exist?

 

Uh, you've seen A&E right?

 

 

Leprechauns DO exist!  

 

a literal vision of hell...thx.

 

but that reminds me of a dance instructor me and my buddy were courting one evening...her name was Star, a truck driver/ clogging dance instructor at Gilleys in Houston.  Glory be to God that we didn't realize a connection.  But she could sure lead....lol

[slave2six]

 

Let's deconstruct this, shall we?  ...

 

 

Ravenstar, You are now officially on my bucket list of people I want to meet. I'm all out of upvotes but that posting would have gotten 10 from me.

[MerryG]

Ridiculing my faith will not upset me. That's expected.

 

I don't believe that a single person here would ridicule your faith if you didn't try to shove it at us. Live and let live works for the rest of us. If you continue to preach at us, though ... well, what slave2six said just above.

 

 

 

I'm here to stay.

 

I don't mean this question as a challenge. I'm genuinely curious. Why do you want to be here? Why do you envision yourself as a long-term member of a forum of ex-christians?

 

So far, I know of only one believer (in the year or so since I've been here) who has stuck around here been willing to live and let live, agree to disagree -- and that's End3, who also just posted. I don't know why End3 hangs out here, but he blessedly keeps the preaching to a minimum.

[MerryG]

 

 

Let's deconstruct this, shall we?  ...

 

 

Ravenstar, You are now officially on my bucket list of people I want to meet. I'm all out of upvotes but that posting would have gotten 10 from me.

 

 

Same here. No votes left today. But Ravenstar, you know how to tell it!

[Guest end3]

 

Ridiculing my faith will not upset me. That's expected.

 

I don't believe that a single person here would ridicule your faith if you didn't try to shove it at us. Live and let live works for the rest of us. If you continue to preach at us, though ... well, what slave2six said just above.

 

 

 

I'm here to stay.

 

I don't mean this question as a challenge. I'm genuinely curious. Why do you want to be here? Why do you envision yourself as a long-term member of a forum of ex-christians?

 

So far, I know of only one believer (in the year or so since I've been here) who has stuck around here been willing to live and let live, agree to disagree -- and that's End3, who also just posted. I don't know why End3 hangs out here, but he blessedly keeps the preaching to a minimum.

 

My therapist and I have recently realized a large piece of my preaching necessity.  The good news is twofold....I know where it stems from, i.e.  the triggers, and two, I still believe it relates to God/Christianity.  Feel free to question at your peril.  lol    I'll pray that y'all see the relationships I see someday.  With that Merry, you are actually a person I have respect for though I know you not. Blessings.

[buffettphan]

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

 

Biblegod is weaker than iron.  Why did you choose the username Ironhorse?

[slave2six]

My therapist and I have recently realized a large piece of my preaching necessity.  The good news is twofold....I know where it stems from, i.e.  the triggers, and two, I still believe it relates to God/Christianity.  Feel free to question at your peril.  lol    I'll pray that y'all see the relationships I see someday.  With that Merry, you are actually a person I have respect for though I know you not. Blessings.

 

So, just to confirm, you're not going to answer the questions that you asked us to pose to you? I've asked twice now. 

 

I am getting really tired of Christians coming on here, not answering questions, and just vomiting religious garble at us. Can you please be the first one not to be a complete tool? Please? I beg you. This cycle is getting totally depressing.

[duderonomy]

Ironhorse, for some reason when I hit the quote button, I go directly to the box where I can reply, but the post I want to quote doesn't show up. That is my question, why doesn't the quoted text or post show up?

 

Also, why do you come off as some arrogant sob in your original post? Is it just me?

 

Crap. that's way more than the one question I was allowed. I'd like an answer to the first one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Hey Ironhorse, it is a simple question: Do you hate your father and mother or do you honor them?  I'm not asking you to donate a kidney here; just answer the fucking question already.

[Pantophobia]

Why do I believe Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God?

 

My evidence:

-The scriptures teach that faith is the evidence of things unseen. I believe that verse.

-I believe in my spirit through prayer. I believe by the love I see in some people.

 

-I also have some other non faith reasons.

-After studying the world's religions the message of Jesus and the Bible was the only

 one, to me, that made any sense. All religions contain truth but in Christianity I found

 the truth.

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several

 times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't

 believe it.

-I have read many books by atheists but I am not convinced.

-I have read books by people abused by churches or people and left the faith. I can see why.

-The wonders of this universe, our planet and all living things speak to me that there is

 a Creator.

 

Those are a few.  I'm not preaching at you to believe me or anything.

 

"Trust yourself to know the way that prove true in the end.  Trust yourself." ~Dylan

 

 

Personal anecdotes are not evidence. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Post #28? Post #39?

[LivingLife]

Well after 5 pages of nothing, Ironmaiden haz charged up his or her persecution cumplex quotas fer teh lawd. We be too kind to these trolls. We should be charging for our persecushun brownie points.

[Ravenstar]

 

[sdelsolray]

 

Thanks, anyone who reads the post by the atheist should agree (or agree to the possibility)

that he did exists in history.

The miracles I accept by faith.

Please define "faith", for purposes of this religious discussion.

 

 

ironhorse, on 24 Jan 2014 - 5:27 PM, said:

…

My evidence:

-The scriptures teach that faith is the evidence of things unseen. I believe that verse.

 

…

 

Actually, this is only part of the Biblical definition of religious "faith".  The full verse is as follows:

 

Hebrews 11:1

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

 

The direct portion of this definition is that faith is "the substance of things hoped for".  In modern English, this is called hope or wishful thinking.  The consequential portion of this definition is that "[faith is] the evidence of things not seen".

 

Put simply, faith is hope or wishful thinking and that hope or wishful thinking is evidence that the substance of that hope or wishful thinking actually exists.

 

Let's apply this to one of your statements from the initial quote at the beginning of this post:

 

 

ironhorse, on 24 Jan 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

…

[Jesus'] miracles I accept by faith.

 

You have hope or wishful thinking that the Biblical claims of Jesus' miracles are true and this hope wishful thinking is evidence that Jesus' miracles actually occurred.

 

Can you identify the informal logical fallacy you are using here? 

[buffettphan]

Why are you posting all over other forum threads today but have not been back to address the comments on this thread you created?

(Your last comment here was yesterday around 9pm.)

[sdelsolray]

…

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several

 times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't

 believe it.

 

…

 

Perhaps you can explain why you do not "believe it".

 

1)  Is it because, after your exhaustive study and research, you have falsified the biological theory of evolution utilizing the scientific method?

2)  Is it because the explanations and predictions of the biological theory of evolution conflict with your religious faith (see above for a "faith" discussion)?

3)  For some other reason?

 

Please try to avoid injecting logical fallacies into your explanation, such as the argument from incredulity fallacy, the mere assertion fallacy, unless, of course, your rely on such logical fallacies for your belief.

 

Thank you in advance for your honesty.

[Pantophobia]

 

 

My therapist and I have recently realized a large piece of my preaching necessity.  The good news is twofold....I know where it stems from, i.e.  the triggers, and two, I still believe it relates to God/Christianity.

 

 

Oh, well, okay. If you tell us your therapist AND you believe you have a "preaching necessity," go ahead, that's absolutely what we at Ex-C are here for. Your preaching.

[MerryG]

Just a heads-up for fairness' sake. I see that two people have interpreted the "therapist" remark as being from ironhorse. End3 actually said that -- and he hasn't been preaching at anybody.

[slave2six]

Just a heads-up for fairness' sake. I see that two people have interpreted the "therapist" remark as being from ironhorse. End3 actually said that -- and he hasn't been preaching at anybody.

 

My Bad. All Christians look the same to me.

[Bhim]

Hi Ironhorse.  I must say you've done a pretty good job of consistently responding to other posters' responses.  A lot of Christians do what we call "drive bys" on this forum, whereby they make a comment which they know will offend us, and then leave without ever posting a response again.  To people like myself who write fairly detailed and thorough posts, it can be immensely frustrating to write a thoughtful response to what we assume is an honest question or argumentative statement, only to never be answered.  I think this is why you've received a less than warm reception here.  Nobody wants to debate or discuss with someone who isn't serious about the discussion.  I, however, like to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and from what I see so far you don't seem to be interested in hit-and-run posting.  As per your request, I do have a question that you might be interested in answering.

 

As I stated in my profile, I was born and raised Hindu.  Why should I dishonor my mother and father, and effectively destroy my family, by converting to Christianity, whereas someone like yourself gets to be a "good Christian" with the full approval of his family?  I ask this question not only because the whole system of Christianity seems unfair in this regard, but more importantly because evangelicals equate their religion with "family values," while the conversion of non-Christians is in fact antithetical to family values.  I also ask this question to impress upon you that for someone like myself to convert to Christianity requires an upheaval of my very way of life, whereas for someone from your background, "giving your life to Christ" is merely a matter of changing one's heart and mind, i.e. repentance as you may call it.  Evangelicals believe that Christianity is a relationship rather than a religion, but in my experience, Christianity is inextricably bound to Western European culture.

 

I'd be very interested to hear your response to this, and if you like I would be more than willing to have a lengthier discussion on the topic.