Is This Guy Nuts?

[Mythra]

If religion is the root of terrorism, wouldn't Muslim hate and terrorism transcend borders? Now we can say that Sept. 11th would be a good illustration of that, but the hijackers were not American citizens, and they didn't mean to live here. Religion is not the root cause of terrorism. If that were so, Islamic citizens of America would be killing Christian citizens.

 

I'm not so sure. Some of it may be related to societal pressures and inequality. But, most american muslims are moderate in terms of their religion. They have learned to temper the Koran with common sense and decency. The Koran clearly teaches Jihad, it teaches that God hates infidels (any non-muslim)

 

Here is typical wording found in the Koran:

 

2:176 (concerning infidels - idolators) "Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme.

 

So, fundamental Islam is very similar to fundamental christianity - or any religion, really. It's rabid.

[nightflight]

Islam. Muslims worship an angry jealous god and have every incentive to punish infidels on his behalf, so they use terrorism as the way of doing it. I think politics, economics, etc. serve as a catalyst for the "punishment", but I do believe Islamic doctrine is the root of the problem. There are other regions of the world that are just as religious and poor and destitute and politically charged as the middle east, yet you don't see them flying planes into buildings and blowing up scores and scores of people almost daily. Actually I think it's always been like that with Islam really, from what I have read Islam has a long history of aggression against "enemies of Islam" and so I don't really see why that would change now or ever. I really fear for the future of humanity as Islam continues to grow, slaying any infidels that cross its path.

 

I agree. In Islam, the world is divided into what they call "The House of Islam" and "The House of War". Islam's beginning was one of conquest, not persuasion. The Koran demands that the world either be Muslim or a subject of the Islamic State.

[Mike D]

Ok so basically you are arguing the exact opposite of what I said.

Yes it does appear that way, doesn't it

 

I don't see how Islam had more to do with terrorism than forign intervention and then disertion, or politically backed coups, or abuse of war prisoners. It's a cycle. The reasons for hating America are cloaked by religious intolerance, and then we interpret the reason for terrorism on religious intolerance.

IMO, all those things trigger anger among people, but they don't cause people to fly planes into buildings or blow others up, making martyrs out of themselves in the process. That's all specific to Islam. How do you explain that no other cultures are doing the same thing and they have just as many problems as the middle east when it comes to politics?

 

If that were so, Islamic citizens of America would be killing Christian citizens.

Oh and don't forget, American Muslims don't live in an Islamic theocracy, governed by Islamic laws, subject to daily heavy brainwashing and propeganda by Mullahs, Clerics, etc., which I think is even broadcast over loudspeakers in the bigger cities. That kind of enviornment is no different than a cult, IMO.

[charley]

Religion is not the root cause of terrorism. If that were so, Islamic citizens of America would be killing Christian citizens.

 

I don't think that you could be more wrong. There wasn't one palestinian in the 9/11 attacks...and the palestinians are the arab political problem. It is a religious war. I am acquainted with muslims who acquire a deep dignity and inner peace from their faith, and that's a large part of why I have enjoyed their company. But this wasabi and shiite stuff is a completely different animal. In the long run, LeVine is right that "...they don't hate us..", because they are not mustering that emotion out of any direct knowledge or any contact with us as people. They only think of us in a racist, stereotypical, generalized and exagerated way. And I think that his learning of that made him conclude that they "don't hate us". But that's a distinction without a difference, because the zealous fundamentalist muslims are unwilling or unable to learn any real facts about us. Their minimalization of us keeps their whole world view of infidels being the source of their problems intact. And that world view is a thoroughly religious one. That makes this a religiously inspired and sustained animosity on their end.

He would be far more accurate if those same remarks were about Iran rather than arab states. There it is true that only a very very few hardcore crazies hate us, and the people are very warm and receptive to us.

I know this all from having lived with an Iranian family for two years, and being acquainted (they "adopted" me!) with the whole huge family and all the distant relatives. Also, I know many different arab peoples from all over the middle east.

 

....yeah, LeVine is an asshole. Education is no guarantee someone is going to think accurately.

[Mike D]

The Koran demands that the world either be Muslim or a subject of the Islamic State.

That's why I am so afraid for the future. The goals of both Christianity and Islam seem to be one world religion, and as both continue to grow in numbers and geographic occupation, what happens then? Will the nukes finally be flying?

[Dianka]

I'm reading Harris's book now, though I thought long before I picked it up that the religion of Islam itself is the driving force of muslim terror.

 

 

 

If religion is the root of terrorism, wouldn't Muslim hate and terrorism transcend borders? Now we can say that Sept. 11th would be a good illustration of that, but the hijackers were not American citizens, and they didn't mean to live here. Religion is not the root cause of terrorism. If that were so, Islamic citizens of America would be killing Christian citizens.

 

Muslims in the U.S. are very much a minority and they know it. It wouldn't be feasible to begin attacking the kafir now. But you can be sure that they are capable and willing if the situation would allow it. The many madrass schools in the U.S. are notorious for preaching anti-Americanism to their students. Look at Europe now. Not too long ago we wouldn't have imagined the things that are happening there (and its only just beginning). As more Muslims immigrate and are born there, the more problems there are going to be.

 

I suppose I can't argue that there are no Muslim cells in America, they are all over the world. Are you referring to France? There was more than religious tension that fueled all that went on there. The shit didn't hit the fan for a long time. People moving to France were at first elated to get out of their shit-hole situation at home. After a few decades people in the French subsidized housing were just getting sick of the lack of concern shown by the govt., lack of decent job opportunities, etc. Of course religious divide did it's part to piss people off even further. Frace has lost it's patience with the Muslims, and they revolted. It is unfair to blame only religion on the tension in France and I imagine the rest of Europe has the same problem.

 

My objection to religion being the root of all terrorism is that it let's us off the hook. Sure, I am going to catch shit for that last comment, but what, we didn't ever run into a country and act like fuckin assholes? We don't exploit and profit from third world countries? There are reasons beyond religion that cause terrorism.

[Chad3232132]

Ahh come on guys... President Bush led us into this war to liberate Iraq from that Bin Laden associate Sadaam. It's only a matter of time before Iraq is a fully functioning democracy, which will have a spill-over effect into neighboring countries and ultimately lead to a democratic middle-east full of Wal-Mart shopping, McDonalds eating, American loving folks!

 

Unless things spin off a bit in a different direction... nah, that could never happen.

[Dianka]

Religion is not the root cause of terrorism. If that were so, Islamic citizens of America would be killing Christian citizens.

 

I don't think that you could be more wrong. There wasn't one palestinian in the 9/11 attacks...and the palestinians are the arab political problem. It is a religious war. I am acquainted with muslims who acquire a deep dignity and inner peace from their faith, and that's a large part of why I have enjoyed their company. But this wasabi and shiite stuff is a completely different animal. In the long run, LeVine is right that "...they don't hate us..", because they are not mustering that emotion out of any direct knowledge or any contact with us as people. They only think of us in a racist, stereotypical, generalized and exagerated way. And I think that his learning of that made him conclude that they "don't hate us". But that's a distinction without a difference, because the zealous fundamentalist muslims are unwilling or unable to learn any real facts about us. Their minimalization of us keeps their whole world view of infidels being the source of their problems intact. And that world view is a thoroughly religious one. That makes this a religiously inspired and sustained animosity on their end.

He would be far more accurate if those same remarks were about Iran rather than arab states. There it is true that only a very very few hardcore crazies hate us, and the people are very warm and receptive to us.

I know this all from having lived with an Iranian family for two years, and being acquainted (they "adopted" me!) with the whole huge family and all the distant relatives. Also, I know many different arab peoples from all over the middle east.

 

....yeah, LeVine is an asshole. Education is no guarantee someone is going to think accurately.

 

Yes, they even have martyr trading cards for the children.

 

How have you guys come to this conclusion that religion is more the cause than, say, ignorant forign policy or family members being killed by bombs? Really, it's a question, not an accusation. Religion seems to simplify the reasons why Christians and Westerners are demonized. A one word summary works better than a printed bullet point list in a country where printers are scarce, no?

 

Oh and don't forget, American Muslims don't live in an Islamic theocracy, governed by Islamic laws, subject to daily heavy brainwashing and propeganda by Mullahs, Clerics, etc., which I think is even broadcast over loudspeakers in the bigger cities. That kind of enviornment is no different than a cult, IMO.

 

Why brainwash people with religion if it is the root cause of hate. The government is using psychological tactics to equate religion with Western hate, and that is because it is not the same thing. Religion is the foundation of their country just like liberty is ours. The brainwashing with religion there is pretty similar to the brainwashing with liberty talk over here. "They hate our freedom" is not a good enough reason to fly planes into buildings.

[nightflight]

I suppose I can't argue that there are no Muslim cells in America, they are all over the world. Are you referring to France? There was more than religious tension that fueled all that went on there. The shit didn't hit the fan for a long time. People moving to France were at first elated to get out of their shit-hole situation at home. After a few decades people in the French subsidized housing were just getting sick of the lack of concern shown by the govt., lack of decent job opportunities, etc. Of course religious divide did it's part to piss people off even further. Frace has lost it's patience with the Muslims, and they revolted. It is unfair to blame only religion on the tension in France and I imagine the rest of Europe has the same problem.

 

I don't know now. A couple of months ago I was saying that the tensions in France had nothing to do with religion; now I think that Islam may have had a bigger part. I don't know. I do know that Islam is a sexually repressive religion. Imagine being a 19 year old guy who has grown up in one of those Paris suburban slums. Your own culture is based in Islam, yet just a few miles away are hot chicks, discos, all manner of enticing Western debauchery. This could create quite a resentment in a young man.

 

My objection to religion being the root of all terrorism is that it let's us off the hook. Sure, I am going to catch shit for that last comment, but what, we didn't ever run into a country and act like fuckin assholes? We don't exploit and profit from third world countries? There are reasons beyond religion that cause terrorism.

 

Then they should attack military targets, not shopping malls and trains. But that's what they do, they deliberately attack civillians, they target them.

[Mike D]

Why brainwash people with religion if it is the root cause of hate. The government is using psychological tactics to equate religion with Western hate, and that is because it is not the same thing. Religion is the foundation of their country just like liberty is ours. The brainwashing with religion there is pretty similar to the brainwashing with liberty talk over here. "They hate our freedom" is not a good enough reason to fly planes into buildings.

Well let me ask you this.... when you were a Christian did you feel brainwashed? I sure did, and alot of is was hate (or at least dislike) of non-Chrisitans. I was taught was Jesus said.... if you weren't with him you were against him. And as a young person I started to believe all this. I see this type of religious brainwashing as probably the same thing that happens in Islam but more extreme. That's why there are so many fantatic Islamic fundamentalists.

 

And I totally agree, "they hate our freedom" is not a good reason for anything. In fact the first time I heard Bush say that I almost fell over in my chair because it was such an absurd thing to say. They don't hate our freedom, they hate us because we are enemies of Islam, plain and simple.

 

P.S. Just to be clear I am only talking about Islam here and not "religion" in a general sense, since you had only referred to religion in your post.

[charley]

Yes, they even have martyr trading cards for the children.

 

That's a frivolous, unthinking comment.And people all over the world have histories of disputes over land and power, like the ones you feel are so obviously at the root of middle-eastern based violence. Why doesn't shit hit the fan everywhere, like it does in the middle east? The answer is RELIGION . Don't fall into the pretense of believing that you are accurate as long as you sympathize with the underdog. You're not thinking clearly.

You obviously don't have much real experience with people, and none with the people you opine about.

[Biggles7268]

Mark LeVine is a leader of the new generation of historians and analysts of the modern Middle East and Islam. With a command of Arabic, Hebrew, Turkish, and Persian, as well as Italian, French and German, LeVine spent the last eight years living, researching and reporting from the region, including Iraq, Israel, the Palestinian Territories, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey and Morocco. He has interviewed senior international political figures, reported from Beirut's green line, taught Qur'an to Muslim Brothers, performed from Woodstock to Paris to Damascus Gate, lived next door to Hamas mosques, stood against bulldozers, dodged terrorist bombs, and uncovered damning files in dusty archives. He knows the history, politics, religions–and most important, the peoples–of the region as a friend, but with a highly critical eye.

 

You may not like his ideas and beliefs, but at least he's gone out in the world and experienced it first hand instead of hiding behind a computer screen pissing and moaning.

[LloydDobler]

HEY HEY HEY now. This is a fairly civil discussion so far on a very hot topic. Let's not make it personal.

 

I think if Islam had as much to do with terror, we'd see a hell of a lot more of it. It's a huge religion. A vast majority of muslims do not approve of terrorism, they just want to do their jobs and feed their families like the rest of us. I do think western meddling, racism, and cultural division is more the root cause, and religion (just like in the KKK) is the excuse, or an extra little motivator that provides the justification. There's no rational reason to hate people 'just because', but believing in a war god fills that hole nicely. I agree that religion makes it much easier to rally people to war.

 

On the issue of the last gang of terrorists being from well to do families, I see Al-Qaida as a cult, with Bin Laden as the megalomaniacal leader who has developed a twisted and deep seated hatred for western culture, and because of his background he has the ability to take action. Charismatic people can get followers onto any cause, they just have the ability.

 

I believe terror is incredibly complex in its factors, it doesn't just come down to one thing. I also believe it receives vastly more media coverage than it merits. Bottom line, it's not black or white.

[nightflight]

You may not like his ideas and beliefs, but at least he's gone out in the world and experienced it first hand instead of hiding behind a computer screen pissing and moaning.

 

I don't have the income to experience the world. Forgive me.

 

 

On the issue of the last gang of terrorists being from well to do families, I see Al-Qaida as a cult, with Bin Laden as the megalomaniacal leader who has developed a twisted and deep seated hatred for western culture, and because of his background he has the ability to take action. Charismatic people can get followers onto any cause, they just have the ability.

 

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself? You say that religion is a minor factor, but then you say that that baddest terrorist group, Al-Qaeda is a cult.

 

Bin Laden explicitly said in interviews that his beef was with America's precense in the holy land of Saudi Arabia. I take him at his word. It was only later and obviously for political reasons that he brought in the Palestinian issue.

 

A vast majority of muslims do not approve of terrorism, they just want to do their jobs and feed their families like the rest of us.

 

Are you sure about that? Jihad is a big part of Islam, and it doesn't just mean an inner struggle. I think there is a lot of approval in the Islamic world for terrorism against the West.

[quicksand]

Ahh come on guys... President Bush led us into this war to liberate Iraq from that Bin Laden associate Sadaam. It's only a matter of time before Iraq is a fully functioning democracy, which will have a spill-over effect into neighboring countries and ultimately lead to a democratic middle-east full of Wal-Mart shopping, McDonalds eating, American loving folks!

 

Unless things spin off a bit in a different direction... nah, that could never happen.

This is going to sound strange from me here, I know, but...

 

Bush is partially correct that democracy can and could reform the Islamic world, bringing a more moderate and temperate form of the religion. It worked for our country in our founding by taming and marginilizing the religious proclivity of our citizens. While all religions are mutually exclusive to each other (and largely to other sects within its body, ie homoean vs homoousion Christianity), we have at least a division of church and state legally - even though this has eroded like the division between state and press under this religious right-wing minority. Ironic now, when you look at Iraq’s Constitution, that although it is the ”supreme Law of the land, “ it establishes that ”Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation.” and furthermore no law can contradict Islam. (Article 7)

 

How’s that not a theocracy?

 

And with the recent elections, we now have a Shiite controlled country aligned with Iran. Things are going to get worse. Much, much, much worse.

 

Anyway, I realize this is an argument against this administration or against this war and I don’t think we’d have any dissenters with that. I can’t help to muse over the other irony about this war. Bush asserts that democratic countries are peaceful because of basic honesty to its people. Well, that didn’t stop the U.S. from attacking Iraq illegally.

 

Oh and don't forget, American Muslims don't live in an Islamic theocracy, governed by Islamic laws, subject to daily heavy brainwashing and propeganda by Mullahs, Clerics, etc., which I think is even broadcast over loudspeakers in the bigger cities. That kind of enviornment is no different than a cult, IMO.

Mike, that’s cause they live in a Christian theocracy now with an ever increasing and marginalized secular society.

 

How have you guys come to this conclusion that religion is more the cause than, say, ignorant forign policy or family members being killed by bombs? Really, it's a question, not an accusation. Religion seems to simplify the reasons why Christians and Westerners are demonized. A one word summary works better than a printed bullet point list in a country where printers are scarce, no?

I make no distinction between today’s Muslim terrorists and the Christian crusaders of old (and the new ones of today). The impetus is the same, even if the style of the robe is different. However, I do agree with you is that we have had a disastrous foreign policy and I do think we are culpable. So, yes I blame America and I blame these Islamic fundamentalists too. In our cold war zeal, we trained these Jihadists in Afghanistan to fight the communists in the Middle East. Well, communism is gone thank heaven’s, but we’ve shortsightedly trained and even more deadlier foe. The history of Christian west and Muslim east has always been a clash of civilazations, whether it was for land, for religion, for resources, or for cultural identity which Karen Armstrong wisely notes in Holy War.

 

The 911 Report documents that Usama issued a fatwa claiming that America had started a war against God. (Sounds like a few Christians we all know of, unh?) To go back to the foreign policy angle here... page 48 notes that Usama ”condemned the Saudi monarchy for allowing the presence of an army of infidels in a land with the sites most sacred to Islam.” His language is undoubtably religious in nature, but the fact that we had our bases there (after the first Gulf War) ironically freeing another monarchy of Kuwait from our old CIA foil, Saddam Hussien.

 

The rest is history.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Religion is bullshit, however, humanity will be burdened with it for a long time to come unfortunately. I don’t think we should dismiss the importance of a secular education though, even though Atta and his fellow Saudi’s were highly educated people. McVeigh, wasn’t a dull marble in a crayon box either. Fundamentalists hate education - look how viscerally they react to ToE, despite the overwhelming evidence that ToE is not just a theory, but a fact as well. Fundies like Hovind would do away with public education all together.

 

Despite my (as Harris would put it) ”liberal piety; “ I do see the value as an atheist and a liberal to connect to the moderate Christians or Muslims among us. These moderates HAVE TO stand up to the more toxic elements of their religion.

 

I rather see the end of religion - especially these caustic Abramhic religions (throw Hinduism in there too. Ever debate a Hindu-fundy? Let’s just say that a belief in God does make you nuts.) But in the short term, I see this as a practical and pragmatic approach as it will only further allow reason and education to go. The environment is more conducive in other words.

 

I may paint too rosy of a picture here I know. But you gotta hope.

[Dianka]

I don't know now. A couple of months ago I was saying that the tensions in France had nothing to do with religion; now I think that Islam may have had a bigger part. I don't know. I do know that Islam is a sexually repressive religion. Imagine being a 19 year old guy who has grown up in one of those Paris suburban slums. Your own culture is based in Islam, yet just a few miles away are hot chicks, discos, all manner of enticing Western debauchery. This could create quite a resentment in a young man.

 

Nightflight,

 

I imagine they do there what happens here. Bang the Christian girls and deny it if it will get them into trouble.

[nightflight]

Nightflight,

 

I imagine they do there what happens here. Bang the Christian girls and deny it if it will get them into trouble.

 

Or as there have been reports, go after their own girls (whether they consent or not).

 

In France, Samira Bellil broke her silence – after enduring years of repeated gang rapes in one of the Muslim populated public housing projects – and wrote a book, In the hell of the tournantes, that shocked France. Describing how gang rape is rampant in the banlieues, she explained to Time that, “any neighborhood girl who smokes, uses makeup or wears attractive clothes is a whore.”

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=20646

[charley]

Dianka, the political causes of animosity between middle eastern countries and ours are not unique causes that explain they're actions. For example, it is possible for a French citizen to travel to germany, pick up a phonebook, and track down the very person who may have slaughtered members of their family in WW2. Those are animosities that exist. Another more recent conflict is Vietnam. But, the difference is that in relations with these countries, and in countless more examples, the citizens of these countries who have had very ugly and recent wars with each other can travel across each others borders and not worry about being attacked, there or by having their neighbors come looking for them. This history of the mid-east having wars and grudges with others is the common denominator betwwen countries all over the world. What is unique in their situation is the religious component that makes them fanatically unwilling and/or unable to get past their past and build new lives. That's the difference.

[Dianka]

Nightflight,

 

I imagine they do there what happens here. Bang the Christian girls and deny it if it will get them into trouble.

 

Or as there have been reports, go after their own girls (whether they consent or not).

 

In France, Samira Bellil broke her silence – after enduring years of repeated gang rapes in one of the Muslim populated public housing projects – and wrote a book, In the hell of the tournantes, that shocked France. Describing how gang rape is rampant in the banlieues, she explained to Time that, “any neighborhood girl who smokes, uses makeup or wears attractive clothes is a whore.”

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=20646

 

That's terrible.

 

Dianka, the political causes of animosity between middle eastern countries and ours are not unique causes that explain they're actions. For example, it is possible for a French citizen to travel to germany, pick up a phonebook, and track down the very person who may have slaughtered members of their family in WW2. Those are animosities that exist. Another more recent conflict is Vietnam. But, the difference is that in relations with these countries, and in countless more examples, the citizens of these countries who have had very ugly and recent wars with each other can travel across each others borders and not worry about being attacked, there or by having their neighbors come looking for them. This history of the mid-east having wars and grudges with others is the common denominator betwwen countries all over the world. What is unique in their situation is the religious component that makes them fanatically unwilling and/or unable to get past their past and build new lives. That's the difference.

 

Charley, I certainly didn't say politics was the only cause. I agree that religious tensions are a part of the problem. My objection is that religion is not the root of terrorism.

 

I can imagine that the French are not quick to track down Germans because the war is over, and each country has enjoyed peace for a good while. Bombed out villages may spawn irrational behavior. Now go on and say I don't know anything because I haven't been there like you Charley, but it makes sense that people act out of vengence and not faith. Western tough love gives them more than enough inspiration.

[charley]

Dianka, I think that you are looking at the facts accurately, we are just drawing different conclusions from them. I think the difference lies in what kind of solutions seem to be implied by emphasizing either religious or economic/political causes. I assume (yes, I know you hate that) that you think that after the economic and political needs are met that they will live peaceably as other muslims alongside us in the western world. I wish I could agree with that. If it were not for the fact that so many of the most violent muslim extremists are very educated and well-to-do, I would be inclined to agree with you. But because the animosity transcends these economics, I don't. I think that if all of their professed needs were met economically or politically, they would find another reason to attack us. That's because of a deep sense of eternal meaning they derive out of conflict with "infidels". I think that the only thing that will change the entire situation is an emphasis on education. Informing these people of ways other than fanatical and hateful characterization. That's why I emphasize the religious component as the crux of the issues at hand. And of course something has to be done to achieve some kind of economic and political stability also, concurrently with this.

[BlueGiant]

It seems to me that the situation in the Middle East and Islam vs the "West" and more specifically the US, while religiously motivated, isn't completely driven by it. Religion does play a huge role in that it is a unifying factor, and a largely shared experience (like the first Great Awakening was here). It provides an easy us-them dichotomy, and once an enemy is declared, it galvanizes. Islam itself isn't the problem, Judiasm, and Christianity and other religions act the same way in this sort of situation. Well, it isn't a problem any more than any other organized religion is. Both the bombings and a lot of state responses seem to be more out of fear and nationalism, both in a state and a racial sense as well as a religious one.

 

Cheering has been seen like that here as well, may I point to Eric Ruoldph. The Go Eric signs and the support of him despite bombing multiple places, including gay clubs and abortion clinics. Here it is more than acceptable among the fundie/evangelical circles as long as you have the right targets. Really, religion helps to unify and target, but I think something else drives it, and that is a perceived threat, whether or not accurate.

 

Just my thoughts and observations.

[LloydDobler]

On the issue of the last gang of terrorists being from well to do families, I see Al-Qaida as a cult, with Bin Laden as the megalomaniacal leader who has developed a twisted and deep seated hatred for western culture, and because of his background he has the ability to take action. Charismatic people can get followers onto any cause, they just have the ability.

 

Don't you think you are contradicting yourself? You say that religion is a minor factor, but then you say that that baddest terrorist group, Al-Qaeda is a cult.

 

Bin Laden explicitly said in interviews that his beef was with America's precense in the holy land of Saudi Arabia. I take him at his word. It was only later and obviously for political reasons that he brought in the Palestinian issue.

I didn't say 'religion' I said 'Islam'. I think Bin Laden's hate for the west is political, that he's a megalomaniac, and that he uses cultic tactics to organize people to get them to do his evil for him. I'll say it again: I think Al-Qaida has about as much to do with islam as the KKK has to do with christianity. The KKK says "We hate the Jews, because the Jews killed Christ!" But that's bullshit and everyone knows it. They hate because they like to hate.

 

A vast majority of muslims do not approve of terrorism, they just want to do their jobs and feed their families like the rest of us.

 

Are you sure about that? Jihad is a big part of Islam, and it doesn't just mean an inner struggle. I think there is a lot of approval in the Islamic world for terrorism against the West.

If you want to characterize billions of people by the actions of literally a few thousand, go ahead. All I can say is I know a few muslims and they are as disgusted by terrorism as you are.

[SkepticOfBible]

Are you sure about that? Jihad is a big part of Islam, and it doesn't just mean an inner struggle. I think there is a lot of approval in the Islamic world for terrorism against the West.

Actually no it's not. Otherwise you'll have have billions of Muslims down at your neck.

 

Most Muslim(like Christians) just want to live and get on with their lives.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[charley]

Really, religion helps to unify and target, but I think something else drives it, and that is a perceived threat, whether or not accurate.

 

I think everyones religion, whether it's muslim, christian, or jew is part of the problem. Religion is what makes these people unable or unwilling resolve their problems peaceably, because it negates this life on earth in favor of an afterlife. I think that you are trying to understand these problems in a linear fashion. I don't think that this is the kind of problem that can be accurately understood by trying to put all of the factors in a straight line of cause and effect, and then determining what the root, originating first cause was, and addressing that to fix everything that follows. Rather, I think that these problems are more accurately understood by seeing them as cycles of behavior, where one part reinforces and encourages another, and then takes you back to where you started to begin again. The main difference between this and the linear approach is that the cyclical view can take into account how history repeats itself in the mideast. Like I said before, their basic disputes over land, resources, and power are no different than those endured by others in the world, and there will be wars again over the same issues elsewhere. I think we can agree that is the basic way of the world, unfortunately. What allows the rest of the world much longer periods of peace between conflicts than the mideast in recent decades is a greater devotion to having a good life on this earth, rather than having a religious bellief that would sacrafice this life in the same kinds of disputes experienced everywhere, for a promise of a better afterlife. So, if we take religion out of this cycle, the greater value placed on this life that would replace it would make them desire to make the most of this life and live peaceably. That's an accurate assessment in my view.

[pitchu]

Charley, it's kinda hard to lump Jews into the "people unable or unwilling [to] resolve their problems peaceably, because it negates this life on earth in favor of an afterlife." It's especially hard when, since their earliest history together, Muslims have despised and derided Jews for, among other things, "loving life" too much.

 

The afterlife is not only an unstressed part of Judaism, to most of the Jews I know it's confusing, unclear, and interpreted about as many ways as there are Jews to try to figure out the few references to it in their scriptures.