alexandra101186 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Hi everyone, Thanks for taking the time to read this. So, as I've said before I used to be a hard core Christian fundamentalist. Young earther, homeschool, thinking of quivering, taught Sunday School for four years, etc. Over the past 6 months I've been questioning my faith and at this point I feel like I am at a 9 on a scale of 0 being Christian and 10 being atheist. Maybe I'm not ready to make the final leap, but in any case I need more time to research and let everything marinate. Now, Im not trying to deconvert my husband. But my husband is my best friend and this whole thing has put a big hitch in our relationship. It's not that we are fighting, because we arent. Our relationship is great and he has been very supportive of my questions, going to secular meet ups, etc. But there is a problem in that 1) I cant talk to my husband about the most important, life changing thing in my life right now, and 2) He thinks if I continue that Ill go to hell. He's hoping its all a phase Ill snap out of. Mostly we just dont talk about it. When I do try to talk to him I end up wanting to slam my head into a wall. It goes like this. I ask, "Why do you believe the Bible is God's word?" "Because the Bible says it is" "Dont you see how that is circular?" "I dont care" Sometimes he'll say things like "Because its the oldest book in the world" (?!!??!!) When I point out that its not, He doesnt believe me. One one point he said "Because everything is based on it" I dont know what he means by that and I dont think he does either. Another time he said "Because it just makes sense". I do not see how it makes sense in anyway. He also thinks the ESV version of the Bible is the inerrant word of God based on the "originals". WHen I point out that no one has the originals, or what about the ending to Mark, is that inerrant too? He just keeps reasserting what he said. Or he changes the subject and questions my motives by saying somehting like "You just dont want to go to hell so you dont want the Bible to be true". Ive even gven him a list of contradiction to look up and he apparently has lost it. This is all ridiculous but he doesnt seem to notice or even care. Im getting a little irritated at being told im going to hell by someone who doesnt care enough about church to even get up and go (that was always me who made sure everyone went to church). Im also not going to allow my children to be afraid mommy is going to hell because shes not a Christian. It's going to cause serious problems down the road. I dont want my marriage to end. Everything else is great. In every other realm he is smart and successful. When it comes to this, its like hes just compartmentalized everything and I dont understand his motivation for doing so. Help? Thanks
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted March 21, 2014 Moderator Posted March 21, 2014 Our culture emerged from Greek-philosophy-influenced Roman Catholicism and has since been influenced by more fundamentalist reformed Christianity. Most people will not likely reject those dogmas and traditions once they have held onto them past their twenties or thirties. It may be time for you to decide on your priorities and whether or not this disconnect is something that you are willing to learn to be content with. You may both need to come to accept each other and many differing views in many areas. Iron sharpens iron, right?
RipVanWinkle Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 alexandra: Yours is a very common problem with those who are deconverting of have deconverted. You have my sympathy particularly since I am in the same situation. It's tough, isn't it? my wife is not a fundy, thank heavens. But she stubbornly clings to her faith, She refuses to discusses the matter with me. We have agreed to disagree. Actually we agreed to not discuss the matter at all. That has worked out for us very well. I have to be careful since the farce of Xtianity is the subject I like to read about and study the most. But my marriage is more important to me that this faith issue. You might try to see if your husband will agree that the two of you simply not discuss the matter. It's better than arguing. There is no way you will be able to convince him to give his faith. It will have to come from within him. Your children are another matter. How old are they? That could make a real difference on what you do. If they are real young, it's like a time bomb, isn't it? His belief in hell is the real problem. I think it is very important that you discuss the differences in belief with your children. If, possible you should do this with your husband. But it should be done, because once they get indoctrinated it may be impossible to reach them. If I were you I would insist on each of you retaining the right to discuss your views with your children as early as possible. You can only hope that your husband will be reasonable on this point. Explain it to him on the basis of fairness: Just as it would be unfair for you to have the exclusive right to discuss religion with the kids, it would likewise be unfair for him to have that exclusive right. This a tough problem and I don't pretend to have all the answers. Mine is one suggestion. Others here have the same situation that you have. You should get as much input as you can. Good luck. bill 2
mymistake Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 If he isn't hurting your kids or persecuting you I would just let it ride. Yeah, it sucks that you can't talk about this with him. That sucks. But you have to accept the reality of the situation. If he is not going to church that is a real good start. I would recommend that you back off him on this issue. Let his Christianity grow cold on it's own. Without constant reinforcement from a pastor his faith will decay away. Maybe not enough to join you but at least he isn't making your life hell. Focus on the good things your relationship has. Let your actions become more important than those funny ideas. Essentially this has been my strategy for my unequally yoked marriage. I would say it turned out very well. We hardly ever go to church except on Christmas and Easter. We don't have to put up with any pastors filling our minds with crap. My kids are just being kids without worrying about any indoctrination. And any time my wife worries about this stuff I remind her that I am not going to try to deconvert her. 6
Overcame Faith Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Hi, Alexandra. Welcome to ExC. You are not alone with the issue of an unequally yoked marriage. If you will dig a little into some of the older posts, you will read some real horror stories when one spouse leaves the faith and the other one clings to it. The good news for you is that compared to some of the others, your situation is not as bad. I was actually impressed that your husband accompanied you to secular meet ups. You should be encouraged by that. The way I read what you wrote about your husband is that he is the one who is afraid of hell. I sense that he will not really listen to you because he may be worried that what you have to say may make sense and that scares him. You may want to demonstrate a life in which there is no fear of that mind control mechanism called hell and maybe he will learn that he also need not live in fear. If that happens, he may then be receptive to your explanation of why you know that hell is a terrible lie. In any event, until he is ready, he will simply not listen to you about why you are doubting the religion. Don't push him, give him space and time and work out a truce.
Llwellyn Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 he said "Because everything is based on it" I dont know what he means by that and I dont think he does either. It has been said that Western culture is "the Bible's way of making more Bibles" -- so he may be right that "everything" is based on it. But even if it is true, I don't know that this could be evaluated to be a good thing.
Adam5 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I would ride it our too. If your husband doesnt go to church, he cannot be a full on fundie imo. In other denominations he would be the one going to hell for deliberately missing church. In the realm of religion, people just make up their own rules as they go along. Good luck, and welcome to the fourm.
bornagainathiest Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Hi Alexandra! Firstly, welcome to Ex-C! Secondly, I have no experience of your situation (being married to a Fundamentalist Christian) and so I probably can't help you in that respect. My partner Maureen comes from a Catholic background, but she's just as much an atheist as I am now. She was a severely-lapsed believer for the longest time, but over the last ten years or so, the scandals and hypocrisy of the Roman church have destroyed any lingering faith she might have had in that man-made institution. However Alexandra, I can offer you a science-based argument that puts YEC Fundamentalists on the spot. In a nutshell, it forces them to confront the disparity between the Biblical age of the world (about 6,000 years) and the scientific evidence, which says that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and the universe 13.82 billion years old. I suppose it just depends on how confrontational you want to be with your husband? Would you like me to run the argument past you, so that you can judge for yourself if it'd be too difficult for him? After all, you don't want to lose what you've got, do you? Please let me know how you want to play this. Thanks, BAA
Woodsy Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Most people will not likely reject those dogmas and traditions once they have held onto them past their twenties or thirties. I am 66 and have been a christian in one form or another since childhood. Last year, I started my deconversion. It can happen to us old people. 6
nptphotos Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I have recently been watching the youtube videos of Dr. Peter Boghossian concering faith. He is a philosopher at Portland state and is very easy to watch. He makes the point that he does not go after peoples religion because when you do that it is perceived that you are attacking them personally. He says that what should be done is to talk about how faith is a poor way to gather information and how it leads to wrong knowledge. I really like his definition of faith. "Pretending to know something you don't know". If nothing else, he is fascinating. He has a book out "A Manual for Creating Atheists" Youtube to watch: "Peter Boghossian - Jesus, The Easterbunny and other Delusions" "Faith: Pretending to Know Things You Don't Know"
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted March 21, 2014 Super Moderator Posted March 21, 2014 Hi there and welcome to Ex-C! I'm also a member of the unequally-yoked club. Some of my experience is summed up in my profile if you want to read it. In a nutshell, I've been married for 40 years now. We both started out as ex-catholic/agnostics until about 12 years into our marriage when he got brainwashed by a co-worker. DFH* has mellowed out some over the years. But his bottom line is this: "I don't need evidence, I feel jeeeezus in my heart." I've found that you really can't argue with someone's emotions. Fortunately we have an agree-to-disagree arrangement that has worked out okay for us. However, DFH hates to miss church (he suffers from withdrawal if he does!) and would never go to a meet-up or anything similar with me - so at least you've got that going for you. There will probably be times you will need to rant and rave about your situation. Know that you are not alone and we'll be here for you! Peace, BP *DFH = DearFundyHubby
florduh Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Buffettphan summed it up nicely: "I've found that you really can't argue with someone's emotions." End of story. People don't become or remain Christians for intellectual reasons (there are none) but are hooked by an emotional trigger. Eventually, reason, reality and logic may trump emotion but it's an uphill battle. Good luck.
Moderator Margee Posted March 21, 2014 Moderator Posted March 21, 2014 Welcome to Ex-c alexandra! Good to have you here with us!! Like the rest of the gang says...you have a lot going for you right now. I very slowly got my husband over to my side by letting him know that I was completely doubting. Then I tried to not say a word. He stared asking questions, would buck me and I did not argue my points of view. Then he started saying that certain things that I was saying did make sense.Just go slow and easy hon and he may come around eventually. I am so lucky right now to have a husband that will actually watch a Richard Dawkins documentary with me. Sometimes he's the one who finds them for me!! And he was a tongue speaking, 'fall over in the spirit man' at one point! You relax as you go through this. I think it sounds like he just wants to believe in some kind of 'higher power'. He's just in indoctrinated the same as we all were. Best of everything to you. Stay here and post with us!! We'll try to help you along. *hug*
Geezer Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Alexandra, I am unequally yoked too. My wife and I do not discuss religion. She is aware that I am no longer a believer, and we both simply leave it at that. Empathy, I believe, is important in these situations. Think back to when you were a fundy. Would you have taken arguments against your beliefs seriously, or would you have dismissed such arguments and "facts" as nonsense? In my case, I made the decision, since I'm the one that left the faith, to go along to get along. I continue to attend Church services with her, but I do not get involved in anything nor do I attend bible study classes. The real reason(s) I continue to go to Church with her is so that she doesn't have go alone and my absence would invite questions that neither of us want to deal with. The second reason, and the most important one as far as I'm concerned, is the fact I love her. We've been married for 48 years and I decided the fact I am no longer a Christian would not become an issue in our marriage. When couples find themselves in this situation one of them is going to have to back off and honor their mates beliefs or the marriage is likely to suffer significant damage and even divorce. I my case, I made the decision that a make believe god wasn't going to destroy my marriage. I leave reading material out in the open that puts the bible and Christianity in a very different light. I think she reads some of it because her "beliefs" have clearly softened over the past couple of years. She has even acknowledged to me that she no longer believes the bible is literally true. That is a huge concession on her part and that realization is what sparked my de-conversion some years ago. If religion has become irrelevant in your life then it isn't worth fighting about it. I realize there is an inherent desire in newly de-converted folk to tell the world about their new found truth. Trust me, this desire to "come out" and tell the world ain't all it's cracked up to be. The reality is that 99% of the people don't care what your religious beliefs are, or that you don't have any religious beliefs, and you end up getting the other 1% pissed off at you because your lack of faith offends them. 2
alexandra101186 Posted March 21, 2014 Author Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks everyone for taking the time to help out here. BAA I would be interested in the argument for my own knowledge, but after reading all of this I think I am in a very fortunate situation. He supports me going to my groups (He doesnt go with me, but watches the girls so I can go. I must have mistyped?) He doesnt ever mention it at all. I think I should have the same respect for his beliefs as he is having for mine. I dont want to hurt him or take something meaningful from him. The issue with the children remains, though. We live in Japan and move frequently and I homeschool them. I will have many opportunities to tell them what I think, but I mostly just want them to be critical thinkers and make up their own mind. I was such a hard core believer though that both my daughters, particularly my oldest, are strong believers themselves. Im not sure how to talk to them about the change and feel horrible for having put them in this situation. I just think Ill be honest. I dont want them to be afraid of my going to hell, however, and Im afraid that this is how this will go. THey are 7 and 4. Honestly, if we can reach some agreement about the children, this hasnt been an issue in my marriage. In fact, since letting go of my religious beliefs our marriage has improved dramatically. Thanks again 2
DrNo Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Hi Alexandra, Welcome to the Unequally Yoked Club. I myself am a card-carrying member. I don't know if you've seen, but we actually have a new sticky thread on this topic here that has some different online resources that may or may not be of help to you. Try to remember that right now all of this is new. It is hard to say what things will look like a year from now. And as others have said, what your husband is going through is more emotional than rational. He is scared. Probably not so much scared of losing his religion right now as much as losing the life that the two of you built together, or losing your identity as a couple. Or maybe he is afraid of what the kids might believe. Some people avoid issues that they are afraid of. Couples counseling might help to create a safe environment where you two can explore this stuff. Maybe it would be helpful to tell him that what you're thinking about is hugely important to you, and you want to be able to talk about it with him, and you're afraid of having a marriage where there are some things you just can't talk about with your spouse. Explain to him that talking about this with him means more than dismissing your questions when they become uncomfortable. Let him know that you are happy to listen to whatever answers he has to these questions, but if they don't make sense then you would like the conversation to continue. Let him know that if you point out a flaw in an argument it is not because you are trying to ridicule him or put him on trial, you just are not satisfied with the answer yet and would like to continue discussing the question. It was a long time before my wife and I could even talk about some of these issues. Now she is open to talking about them more, but I don't try to convert her. If it's relevant I will point out a flaw in someone's thinking or something, but I leave it at that. As far as the kids go, I have emphasized that I am not as concerned with what they believe as much as how they think. In other words, I don't preach atheism, I preach critical thinking, and my wife is OK with this. Maybe one day she will start asking questions for herself, but I am not banking on it. I just remember that there are a lot of other great qualities about her that I love and focus on that. Your marriage does not have to end unless one of you decides that, and if he has been supportive so far then that's a good sign for the future of your marriage.
leopardus Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Alexandra, Welcome. Sorry you have to be in this particular stage but it's one many of us have had to go through. I was "unequally yoked" for over 3 years. In my case it ended in an ugly divorce. Others have had happier results. I can say that you should defintely be prepared for just about anything. In your case, since your husband is a bit lazy about going to church and sounds like he's a bit of a cultural christian, you probably have a better chance than I did. Your kids being younger is a good thing too. They're still much more open to change. Your husband's resistance to reason and sense is rooted in the irrational basis of his religion. It's not really thought out well and it doesn't really fill a true need in life. Instead it's adresses a psychological need (more properly a want). It provides a sense of security. When you challenge it, the challenge isn't percieved as an intellectual challenge but rather as a threat to his security. (If he gives up the religion, then he can lose friends, family, his sense of belonging to the group, his sense of having a father figure who cares for him, his sense of having a life beyond this one, his sense of life having a purpose, etc.) You probably felt the same senses of loss already as you've moved to the point you're at now. It's a very frightening process. I don't know any easy way to move people into and through that process. Wish I did. I could become an anti-evangelist maybe. Best wishes to you.
midniterider Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Im also not going to allow my children to be afraid mommy is going to hell because shes not a Christian. Maybe this is something you should avoid discussing with your husband. You will most likely not be able to 'get through' to him because Christianity is an insidiously self-preserving mind virus designed to protect itself from outside influence. If someone attacks it, the attacker must be under Satan's influence or some other preprogrammed response from popular Christian culture. The harder you pound against his belief the harder he will probably defend it. People don't like believing they've hoodwinked and will defend their stupidity. So why does he have to believe the same as you? A Christian NOT forcing you to go to church seems like a plus. I found that the less I was surrounded by churchies the less I believed in Jesus and it all just fell away on its own. The best attack on Christianity (unbeknownst to me) was just not going to church or hanging out with Christians. I hope he's not TELLING the children you are going to hell because you are not a Christian. That's manipulation of you, torturing your children and I would not stand for it. If the children are just hearing this from your discussion with the husband maybe either discuss elsewhere or not at all. Enjoy the freedom of non-Christianity. 1
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted March 21, 2014 Super Moderator Posted March 21, 2014 Im also not going to allow my children to be afraid mommy is going to hell because shes not a Christian. I hope he's not TELLING the children you are going to hell because you are not a Christian. That's manipulation of you, torturing your children and I would not stand for it. I second that! That was always my "line in the sand" with my DFH.
midniterider Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks everyone for taking the time to help out here. BAA I would be interested in the argument for my own knowledge, but after reading all of this I think I am in a very fortunate situation. He supports me going to my groups (He doesnt go with me, but watches the girls so I can go. I must have mistyped?) He doesnt ever mention it at all. I think I should have the same respect for his beliefs as he is having for mine. I dont want to hurt him or take something meaningful from him. The issue with the children remains, though. We live in Japan and move frequently and I homeschool them. I will have many opportunities to tell them what I think, but I mostly just want them to be critical thinkers and make up their own mind. I was such a hard core believer though that both my daughters, particularly my oldest, are strong believers themselves. Im not sure how to talk to them about the change and feel horrible for having put them in this situation. I just think Ill be honest. I dont want them to be afraid of my going to hell, however, and Im afraid that this is how this will go. THey are 7 and 4. Honestly, if we can reach some agreement about the children, this hasnt been an issue in my marriage. In fact, since letting go of my religious beliefs our marriage has improved dramatically. Thanks again Seven and four are still pretty young and their minds can re-directed and molded differently. You don't necessarily need to put it in their young minds that there is a battle raging between logical thought and religious thought. Just encourage them to use their critical thinking facility and not be afraid of their own thoughts. And if your child does happen to question the validity of 'thinking', well if God gave us brains he must have wanted us to use them, right? :-)
RipVanWinkle Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 " I dont want them to be afraid of my going to hell, however, and Im afraid that this is how this will go. THey are 7 and 4. " It sounds like you have a really good husband. That is a big positive. One thing more: your early discussions with you kids about Xtianity is especially important. There is a principle in psychology called "primacy and recency". It is that the first impression and the last impression are the most important and lasting. It's true. I've seen it work. So, what your kids learn first about Xtianity, their first impression, is the one that is most likely to prevail. It is hard to change one's belief in what is true once it has been absorbed. I think you have the advantage here, particularly when they learn there is no Santa Claus. It's a good reference point. Again, good luck. bill
mymistake Posted March 22, 2014 Posted March 22, 2014 " I dont want them to be afraid of my going to hell, however, and Im afraid that this is how this will go. THey are 7 and 4. " It sounds like you have a really good husband. That is a big positive. One thing more: your early discussions with you kids about Xtianity is especially important. There is a principle in psychology called "primacy and recency". It is that the first impression and the last impression are the most important and lasting. It's true. I've seen it work. So, what your kids learn first about Xtianity, their first impression, is the one that is most likely to prevail. It is hard to change one's belief in what is true once it has been absorbed. I think you have the advantage here, particularly when they learn there is no Santa Claus. It's a good reference point. Again, good luck. bill Just as a case study let me tell you about my 10 year old. He has been without Sunday school for about two years now. About a month ago he started a conversation with me in which he expresses some kind of belief in reincarnation. I know for a fact that his only source on that could have been other kids and television. Last week we were at the eye doctor and my son picked up a Bible. He looked at it like he had never seen one before. I giggled and suggested that he read the book of Numbers. Instead he thumbed through it for a minute and then acted like it was something he had no interest in. Not bad considering he had been on the path to becoming a fundamentalist. Kids reach the age when their mind is mature enough to start questioning and look for things that don't add up. I try to help them along by encouraging them to think.
Sybaris Posted March 22, 2014 Posted March 22, 2014 Your conversations with you husband about religion go pretty much the same way mine did with my wife. After a while I just never brought it up. You can't reason with people who base their defense on faith. 1
alexandra101186 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Posted March 22, 2014 Again thanks. My husband is not telling my children Im going to hell and doesnt tell me that I will unless I bring up the topic. So, there is that to be grateful for. I just know that it's something that will come up with my children, but I think my husband would be more likely to say that "Mommy is just confused right now." and not that "Mom is destined for eternal hell fire." I think he is kind of in denial about where I am. In any event, I know he loves me, he loves our children, and it can be worked out. I think when I found out all this stuff I was just so shocked I never knew it. It was earth shattering to me. To see someone have no response to it is incomprehensible to me. THere is also that desire to share these feelings with my husband, but he is very good about letting me have time to talk to others about it, like at the meetups. That is a good outlet and places like this help tremendously. Concerning my kids, all I can do is be honest with them and encourage critical thinking. I dont feel a need to tell them where I am right now. It just hasnt been an issue. except when they want to go to Sunday School to see their friends and get candy. Thanks again
Guest Posted March 22, 2014 Posted March 22, 2014 Last week we were at the eye doctor and my son picked up a Bible. He looked at it like he had never seen one before. I giggled and suggested that he read the book of Numbers. Instead he thumbed through it for a minute and then acted like it was something he had no interest in. What kind of an eye doctor do you go to? I've seen some outdated reading material at just about every doctors office, but I have never seen a bible! I think if I ever saw a bible at my doctors, I would find a new doctor!
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