Exorcisms And Revivals

[zuker12]

I want to ask people here if they ever went through an exorcism or a revival when they were christians. How did it feel like then? Did you feel anything? How do you reflect on this past event now? Do you have explanations for why (if you did behave differently during an exorcism) you behaved differently?

[Margee]

I want to ask people here if they ever went through an exorcism or a revival when they were christians. How did it feel like then? Did you feel anything? How do you reflect on this past event now? Do you have explanations for why (if you did behave differently during an exorcism) you behaved differently?

 

zuker12, I've been to the alter so many times in my Pentacostal life to have the devil blown out of me by some 'specialist' faith healer. It never worked. All the things I went to the alter to get rid of (bad habits, thought life and such) NEVER left me. I have seen people frothing, screaming, wriggling on the floor, kicking, groaning and they all went back to normal. People who went to get cured of cancer still died. I must say it was entertainment at it's best. It's all about having 'hope'. Hope of becoming a perfect human being! What a laugh.

 

*hug*

[Kris]

I remember one time at a Pentecostal bible college I was attending--- I walked into a room where apparently everyone was getting worked up over the power of god. I was feeling pretty mellow that night and wasn't interested in participating so I turned around to leave and all of a sudden, I had about six people surround me. They all laid their hands on me and started praying and gibbering. For some reason that night, I just wasn't having it. I didn't want to be prayed over! I actually broke free and stormed out if the room. One of the guys followed me out and asked me why I was upset. I told him that I felt great when I first walked into the room and didn't have a care in the world---- but everyone decided I had "issues" and were even saying that in their praying --- lord, help her through this difficult time; lord, feel her pain and struggle. What difficult time, what struggle. This was one crack in my faith. I actually got pissed off while being prayed over. I am sure they all blamed it on the demons inside me!!

[BlindersRemoved]

I have been to many revivals at small and large churches. Some of them were very emotional events. I attended several Promise Keepers events and was at the "Stand in the Gap" event in DC that had hundreds of thousands of guys there. I found it to be a very powerful event. I look back now and believe it was all about tapping into emotions. When you're with thousands of people singing, it gives you a sense of euphoria. There is a thread about hypnosis in the rants forum that I think does a good job of explaining the emotional side of it.

[Adam5]

I am sprinkling holy water on my keyboard now to exorcise the spirit of unbelief on this thread

 

Only kidding, y'all, I have not witnessed such things as they were not part of the set up of the church I went to.

[TrueFreedom]

I attended and participated in more camps and revivals than I can count.  I left most of them with a light, "fresh start" feeling, but I always kept the emotional group-think aspect in mind about it.  I didn't always go along with the crowd in standing up to rededicate my life.  I didn't always feel like the holy spirit was present.  I rarely if ever bought into the scene 100%.

[xtify]

The whole revival thing just proves that the holy spirit isn't real, imo.  If accepting jesus causes a miraculous change in a person, then why the need for revival?  The last revival I attended was James MacDonald (let it rain?).  It was in 2007, and I hadn't been to one in atleast 15 years.  I travelled 200+kms to attend.  The people in the audience were colder and less emotional than what I had previously experienced in the southern US.  James Macdonald actually got mad at the worship team and grabbed the microphone.  He belittled the audience for not being open to the holy spirit.  After that, people started raising their hands more and singing louder.  When the service was over, it was all buy this, buy that.  "Don't forget to get this book, don't forget the CD's, DVD's etc".  What a sham.

 

When I was a kid, we would travel for 3 straight days in a car to go to Jimmy Swaggart camp meetings.  We went twice a year for years, and my sister was a student at his bible college.  I resented the fact that my needs were not attended to during these times.  I would have to sit for hours without being able to eat anything.  My parents couldn't really afford to go, but they would skimp on things for us kids before and after just so they could go worship Jimmy.  The one good thing was the music.  Even though it was all about worship, I really enjoy the blues and southern music from Louisianna.  But watching Jimmy crying on stage about how sinful people were and people getting 'slain' was just weird for us kids.    

[MerryG]

I am sprinkling holy water on my keyboard now to exorcise the spirit of unbelief on this thread

 

 

Careful with that there, Adam. Do that too much and next you'll have to go up to the altar to ask JeeeZusssssss! to heal your computer.

[Margee]

I'm very surprised that my Pentecostal church did not keep a pen full of pigs on hand to send the evils spirits into like Jesus did?? Maybe that's why nobody ever really got 'delivered??  Poor little pigs...what did they ever do to deserve that??

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

My old church had a "deliverance team" dedicated to casting out demons, healing the sick, praying addictions out of people, and just about anything else you could imagine.  I went to them several times during the horrific two years leading up to the beginning of my deconversion.  I can see now, that I was only grasping at straws.  All of their praying in tongues, hollering at the devil, and laying on of hands did absolutely nothing for me.

 

Of course, their excuse was that I didn't have enough faith and that I had a spirit of resistance (which they couldn't cast out of me, go figure).

[GraphicsGuy]

The whole faith-healing, exorcism crap were amongst the first chinks in my "Full Armour of God". As a teenager, I had been both prayed over and then prayed for others to have demons/sins/whatever cast out. I loved revival services back then, but as I got into my mid-20s I had the first inklings of rational-thought and began to really look at Xianity's concepts of demons and healing and revival.

 

Really easy, quick Bible searches will reveal that demons and/or evil spiritis are mentioned extremely rarely in the Bible. I believe it is less than 20 times, yet there are long shelves of books related to the casting out of demons in Xian book stores. I realized that most Xian theology is like that: tons of "philosophy" and concepts just made up from a few scraggly verses and some guy or group saying that it was "revealed" to them by "God".

 

Yeah, more likely it was "revealed" that they could make a shitload of money by getting people to participate in emotional orgies and then buy books and CDs and videos to keep the high going for a few days or weeks after the hucksters had moved on.

[zuker12]

Im pondering exorcisms. How different are they from suggestion/coerced confessions? A person whi goes for an exorcism probably already is both wrecked and ready to believe in demons. Many of the attendees are probably christians and those emotionally disturbed. Then they receive a load of mental and physical abuse, and suggestions for a demon to come out. this is always done in a prepared environment where feelings of demonic posession are strengthened. Its one thing to point out that Bob Larson lies about his finances and denies extramarital relations. Its another to point out a flaw in exorcism itself.

Which brings me to another point, can a happy person be possessed? How does this show in their life? What implications do demons have on free will especially ib the amounts some propose? What if they are not demons and the abuse is doled out for no reason, what are the ethical implications?

 

EDIT: From skepdic.com:

 

 

 

As a layman, I found the behavior of the exorcists at least as interesting as that of the subject. Believing in demons is one thing; believing you have the ability to call up a supernatural being with infinite power and perfection who will cause demons to move on at your behest seems certifiable. The whole coven of exorcists and exorcized are deluded. The former clearly felt great pride at their achievement and shared in a glorious victory over Satan. The latter was coddled and cuddled, hugged and loved, and eventually praised and rewarded with the good feelings of caring people when he released Satan and said "Jesus is Lord." There doesn't seem to be anything deeply complicated about what happened. The group convinced the subject he was possessed. They cued him as to how to behave and they rewarded him and themselves when he let the demon go. Communal reinforcement and self-deception will go a long way toward explaining how the group came to believe they could exorcize demons. The exorcists clearly enjoy their work and get great satisfaction out of "helping" people in this powerful way. I am sure that many evangelicals who saw the program are wondering where they can sign up to be exorcist's helpers.

 

This is basically what I think, there are more sides to the whole thing but it's a good overview.

[Deva]

I am not a psychiatrist/psychologist, but they should have a field day with this topic!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When my Nazarene pastor's wife began exhibiting odd behaviors, a guy came forward as an expert on spiritual warfare and got them going on the idea that there was something demonic going on. In the words of the pastor's wife, one evening she saw the devil appear to her and told him "I can take you", and then flipped out big-time, took the family dog and drove their car up a local mountain backwards, and killed the dog as a sacrifice to the devil. Apparently, she actually did the latter part. This led to a series of sermons and guest speakers all talking about the importance of spiritual warfare. During a morning sermon about this subject, a lady in the congregation with a lot of personal issues let out a screech that was like tearing metal and some kind of dinosaur (made my hair stand on end). She flipped over and began twitching. All of this seemed to confirm the reality of what was being preached, and I was thrilled that we were finally seeing some proof that the Bible stories were all real. Then a college age girl came forward as a "witch" that had been sent to curse the pastor, and it all seemed to make sense.

 

Fast forward a few years, and I saw at least two other friends of mine snap and go through a manic/depressive disorder, thinking they were apostles of the most high, not sleeping for days (because "the Spirit has filled me and I don't need to sleep"), and then crashing hard. I recognized the same behavior in the pastor's wife. The woman who had screeched never really had a better life after all the prayers and exorcisms, but she had something besides herself to blame for her many bad decisions in life. None of it was really demons. All the mornings we got up around 3am to pray against the devil and local witches were simply wasted time. The girl who had claimed to be a witch was a daughter of another pastor in town, and in need of love and attention. She unfortunately poured gas on herself and burned pretty badly, leaving scarring over her face. More fallout from the god of love and his followers. I've since learned that witches (as in Wiccans) don't even believe in a devil, and don't go around cursing people. More propaganda from the church that comes from the verse in Corinthians "but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God".

 

I even sought out such prayer for myself, trying to find some reason why my behavior wasn't displaying the "born again" nature it should be showing, never allowing the thought that no Christian is really born again, it's just something they tell themselves. Now I know better.

[xtify]

When my Nazarene pastor's wife began exhibiting odd behaviors, a guy came forward as an expert on spiritual warfare and got them going on the idea that there was something demonic going on. In the words of the pastor's wife, one evening she saw the devil appear to her and told him "I can take you", and then flipped out big-time, took the family dog and drove their car up a local mountain backwards, and killed the dog as a sacrifice to the devil. Apparently, she actually did the latter part. 

 

Whaaaat?  

[Kris]

Poor little dog!

[zuker12]

that's actually pretty sick, i think it could be explained by the wife receiving a suggestion to come out as devil-possessed,meaning she possibly acted the whole case with her preconceived notions and communally reinforced beliefs. It all might be just hearsay too, what with the whole satanic panic being a fraud that grew in size as more people succumbed to it. Is there really this much importance on demons in christianity? People do wild things without the influence of demons or gods too.

 

EDIT: One thing I'd like to mention too is that exorcisms are not unique to christianity. Muslims and hindus and taoists do exorcisms, as far as I know. Maybe others. This is a venue I'd like to know more about (much to the chagrin of my mental health. This topic is hard!..)

[Woodsy]

Back in the 1970s there was an organization called Women's Aglow.  I attended many of their charismatic meetings where there was all sorts of so-called manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  Women were being slain in the spirit all over the place and I so wanted that.  I got my chance at one meeting and remembered it as being nothing special.  I fell backward being helped by another woman to hit the floor gently. I did not have that spiritual experience of speaking in tongues, either. Being the follower that I was, I blamed myself for not having a genuinely slain experience.  I look back over my past and am realizing something......I never questioned all of this and I now regret that.  From my de-converted position that I have now, I can see how all of this was mind control and I fell for it.  How sad.  

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Yes, the pressure to "experience God" is high in these circles. The previous pastor had training in psychology and would have spotted the symptoms right away, but this guy didn't have that background, just counseling. The church was conservative and mixing with charismatics was not officially encouraged. But being a college town, the younger crowd would go to each others congregations and learn about raising hands and speaking in tongues, and that eventually made its way into our congregation. The charismatic pastors would hint that god had revealed special knowledge and intimacy to them that the congregation just wasn't ready for (until he had instructed them in all the details of what the tabernacle of Moses meant). Manipulation was rampant, but people ate it up because they all desperately wanted to experience the god they kept reading about in the scriptures. This emotional environment set the stage for my pastor's wife to come unglued and have the whole thing interpreted as spiritual warfare instead of a classic psychological situation that can be rectified before it gets out of hand.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Does anyone know about the Bethel Church and the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry?  They supposedly are the scene of many sorts of phenomena.

[par4dcourse]

Revivals in my church were just a preacher without a church came round for a few days and yelled louder than the Pastor. Then the special lurv offering each night. Missed playing and tv, so I hated them.

[zuker12]

One odd possibility I've been thinking too for these things is some sort of quantum physics or something similar that might affect these miraculous happenings. Just remembered the old saying that a watched pot never boils, and it was supposedly investigated to actually have a difference between a pot that someone watches versus a pot that no one watches. Could there be some odd physics phenomenon at play?

[RogueScholar]

The "odd" actions and statements that people make in a religious context are not unique to religion. I want to post a video that showcases a completely different environment where the same thing is occurring. It is a video of a martial arts "master" who believes that he has unique powers and he can simply shoot "energy" at people and defeat opponents without actually touching them. His students are seen falling, rolling and even apparently convulsing multiple times in response to his actions. You could argue that odd physics or supernatural things are occurring.  However, one must never underestimate the power of human psychology. Continue to watch the video and see what happens at the end.

 

 

 

This really demonstrates what the power of "faith" can really do. That old man believed his own hubris so much that he was literally in shock, holding his jaw after he was punched. His students likely had so much faith in the technique, that many of them probably thought they actually were being hit by mysterious energy.

 

Is this not the same with religious faith? If we are to be honest with our selves and honest with what is known about the world and human psychology, is it at least plausible that the flamboyant actions we see with charismatic churches and revivals are the result of natural phenomenon? Is it possible that all the suffering and madness in this world is simply not responding to prayer, rather than happening because of some mysterious supernatural plan? Could all the numerous unanswered prayers simply be due to prayer and faith failing when put to the test just as what happened in the video? If it is at least plausible in your mind, if my questions are worthy of considering, should you not consider other possibilities instead of blind faith?

[seven77]

Exorcisms: My former church didn't refer to them as such, but they were big fans of "spiritual cleansing". Rounds of intense prayer, trust exercises, group confessions, testimonies, special AA-like programs run by the pastoral staff + counselors. I assume that some people did have intense experiences where "demons" left them or some such things. I never witnessed this personally, but one Sunday a lady had a seizure due to the flashing lights in the worship videos....she fell, hit her head and 911 was called. A few people claimed that it was demons leaving her.

 

Revivals: Classic cult tactic. Gotta keep the lemmings excited but ya can't let go over the edge, ya know? Let's have a revival!

[Fernweh]

Pentecostal services rely heavily on the power of suggestion. When I was in boot camp we were standing in rank and the DI was yelling something or another and said the word "cough". At that moment about 15 out of 80 guys coughed. In a boot camp situation the recruits are powerless and the DI is a king-like figure in much the same way as a pastor and a church congregation. This suggestive tendency is easily exploited by "faith healers" and charismatic revival preachers who like to make people fall over and then pass the hat around (and don't bring it back until it's full of money).