Guest afireinside Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And selfish. Option A: Create people to live and ultimately go to hell and suffer due to Gods cluster fuck of good/evil/free will/fallen angels/punishment/unequal concepts of time et al Option B: Pull himself together and not create people at all. Was he drinking when he made that decision? Or Option C: Create people who will all go to Heaven and not pick and choose who he wants to save and who he wants to fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I meant God is made to be ignorant, and selfish to choose to go down the path he supposedly did- it all defies logic! And adding to that why do people who are staunch Calvinists have children? Isn't that Russian roulette with human souls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Hey Overcame! I agree with with your conclusion, but I arrive at it via a different route. Imho, this divine injustice stems from God's all-too-human failure to use and act upon His (supposedly) perfect foreknowledge. Why didn't He JUST create ONLY those humans He foreknew would accept Jesus and then populate heaven with these people? No need for a universe or Earth or Eden. Just a perfect God in a perfect heaven, surrounded by those He foreknew wanted to be there. No need for anyone but God to make any decisions at all. No need for any trees with any fruit. No need for a talking serpent. No possibility of sin. No need for Jesus' blood to perfect anyone. God's perfect foreknowledge allows Him to create His true believers, already 'perfected'. As for anyone else... they never existed. Non-existent people don't need to be punished in any way, for exercising their free will in the wrong way. They never exercised their free will at all - so they can't be punished for decisions they never made. These people only existed in God's imagination. . . . Since God made such a **** up and didn't act perfectly on His perfect foreknowledge, I therefore conclude that He's a just the fallible, flawed construct of equally-fallible and flawed human imagination. Thanks, BAA. Very good, BAA. Different approach and same, inescapable conclusion. It's all manmade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why would anyone assume Christianity should be about justice? It's about worshiping God and praising whatever he does and making excuses to those with a working brain. It's not. It's the justice card that's pulled out by believers whenever the doctrine of hell is in question. It's justice when it's convenient It's not even that, at least for most Christians. They don't invest any intellectual effort into whether something is just or not. They don't think. They merely repeat their particular religious dogma, like a parrot, that dogma being, "[My] God is Just". They are not taught to think about the religion into which they are indoctrinated. They are merely taught to repeat the (indoctrinated) dogma. Easy as pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why would anyone assume Christianity should be about justice? It's about worshiping God and praising whatever he does and making excuses to those with a working brain. It's not. It's the justice card that's pulled out by believers whenever the doctrine of hell is in question. It's justice when it's convenient It's not even that, at least for most Christians. They don't invest any intellectual effort into whether something is just or not. They don't think. They merely repeat their particular religious dogma, like a parrot, that dogma being, "[My] God is Just". They are not taught to think about the religion into which they are indoctrinated. They are merely taught to repeat the (indoctrinated) dogma. Easy as pie. That's right, justice is something separate and apart from Christianity. We as rational human beings may disagree on what justice is, but there are certain concepts that are not just. What so many Christians have a hard time with is even considering that many Christian concepts related to heaven and hell are unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 During the times of Moses for intance what were people in Asia, India and Central America doing? We're they completely without justice and any moral framework? Why can one book claim to hold the origins to all that's good: marriage, love, justice, charity, community, wisdom etc when parallel facets of society advancing we're happening in society's outside of Israel. It's a long bow to draw to credit Christianity nee Judaism with justice when in fact so much of it is unjust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why would anyone assume Christianity should be about justice? It's about worshiping God and praising whatever he does and making excuses to those with a working brain. It's not. It's the justice card that's pulled out by believers whenever the doctrine of hell is in question. It's justice when it's convenient It's not even that, at least for most Christians. They don't invest any intellectual effort into whether something is just or not. They don't think. They merely repeat their particular religious dogma, like a parrot, that dogma being, "[My] God is Just". They are not taught to think about the religion into which they are indoctrinated. They are merely taught to repeat the (indoctrinated) dogma. Easy as pie. That's right, justice is something separate and apart from Christianity. We as rational human beings may disagree on what justice is, but there are certain concepts that are not just. What so many Christians have a hard time with is even considering that many Christian concepts related to heaven and hell are unjust. Whether something is just or unjust is a subjective human opinion, and only that, usually held by a consensus of a majority of persons within the particular society, but not infrequently held by small minorities of folks, and sometimes imposed by the few in power. In short, justice is a human construct, just like morals, ethics, fairness and many other societal rules involving human interaction are human constructs. What theists do is to project their own (or project their religion's) personal opinions of these human constructs upon, towards and into their imaginary sky fairies. Next, they claim their sky fairies are the source of these items, claim they are absolute, claim they are correct, claim that any other opinion is incorrect, evil or sinful, and pronounce that their sky fairies' pronouncements (which comically are only made by the very same humans who promote this) are inviolate and not to be questioned, etc. Of course, the minor endorphin rushes they get from employing this bait and switch feeds their self-importance and (in extreme case) clinical narcissism. These theists claim, in essence, that their sky fairies and related religion have a patent, copyright, trademark and outright ownership on all interpretations of justice and identification of acceptable morals and behavior. How convenient. How shallow. They are full of shit. That being said, the simple fact is that religions simply adopt versions of these human constructs, such as justice, morals or ethics, into itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Sorry to wah on... This is just a topic that messed my head up as a believer and I've got way more questions than answers regarding it. I think part of each Christian doesn't agree with hell. To wake up each day believing that at this point in time there are countless souls in torture beyond description is a hard reality to accept, how can believers live with ANY "joy" believing that suffering is taking place due to their Gods so called justice? I don't hate believers for the views they hold but I do hate the views themselves, is it enough to say its Gods will/plan that SOME won't end up forever suffering but the majority are toast?. Oh but Jesus died blah blah.... So what! Jesus wasn't a Tutsi massacred in a Genicide with all His loved ones then sent to hell for having hatred in his heart towards rival tribes. His dying does little to help anyone in reality and we are cursed for not loving him when each particle of love is wrung out of some by a life that's so unjust and are expected blow smoke up his arse or else suffer! Where is Justice?, where is Love? Absent from a believers worldview if they really truly examine what they hold onto, certainly not in the God they serve. Do you sleep at night believers? Is there justification in your mind that those in hell are in fact deserving? Do you feel Gods love or is it fear? Does it make you feel like you've done your noble Christian duty by scaring the fuck out of your kids? SELAH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Sorry to wah on... This is just a topic that messed my head up as a believer and I've got way more questions than answers regarding it. I think part of each Christian doesn't agree with hell. To wake up each day believing that at this point in time there are countless souls in torture beyond description is a hard reality to accept, how can believers live with ANY "joy" believing that suffering is taking place due to their Gods so called justice? I don't hate believers for the views they hold but I do hate the views themselves, is it enough to say its Gods will/plan that SOME won't end up forever suffering but the majority are toast?. Oh but Jesus died blah blah.... So what! Jesus wasn't a Tutsi massacred in a Genicide with all His loved ones then sent to hell for having hatred in his heart towards rival tribes. His dying does little to help anyone in reality and we are cursed for not loving him when each particle of love is wrung out of some by a life that's so unjust and are expected blow smoke up his arse or else suffer! Where is Justice?, where is Love? Absent from a believers worldview if they really truly examine what they hold onto, certainly not in the God they serve. Do you sleep at night believers? Is there justification in your mind that those in hell are in fact deserving? Do you feel Gods love or is it fear? Does it make you feel like you've done your noble Christian duty by scaring the fuck out of your kids? SELAH!!! They merely believe what they were told to believe, usually as children. Of course it makes little sense. Of course it reeks of injustice and immorality. Are you surprised that the justice, morals and ethics of a particular human civilization dating back thousands of years is different than the justice, morals and ethics of the particular human civilization in which you live today? If you are surprised, you really shouldn't be. These things have changed over the years. Simple reality. Simple explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Uzzah right? God zapped him for trying to steady his golden treasure chest. It was one of the WTF stories the SDAs are perfectly happy to share, but here's the twist. Ellen White (think Joseph Smith in a dress) mentioned somewhere that Uzzah was really the one to blame because he was somehow evil. I can't remember how she phrased it, but the bottom line is that he was evil and had to die. All from this story. Not even Loki would be so sinister. Who was in charge of delegating the jobs? ... Uzzah's wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Double predestination. It is a doctrine at my parents church. Some people are created for the express purpose eternal torment. Justice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Double predestination. It is a doctrine at my parents church. Some people are created for the express purpose eternal torment. Justice! I feel sorry for your parents if that's what they believe. Theology at its worst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Double predestination. It is a doctrine at my parents church. Some people are created for the express purpose eternal torment. Justice!I feel sorry for your parents if that's what they believe. Theology at its worst It is actually doctrinally sound and can be supported with scripture. Main reason I started questioning. If the bible says its true, im done with the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 It is actually doctrinally sound and can be supported with scripture. Main reason I started questioning. If the bible says its true, im done with the bible. Back when I was a Christian I was a Calvinist, and this is what I believed too. As you say, it's doctrinally sound and really is the logical end of simple predestination. If some are predestined for salvation, then what about everyone else? Or as Paul says, God the Potter can create vessels for destruction, and the clay is not fit to speak to its Molder. Really this is Christian theology at its best. It is cold, calculated, utterly rational, and demonstrates why Jesus is evil and not representative of Nature's God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I can't think of any idea worse than that. I'm going to have 6 kids but 4 of them I'm gonna keep captive in the basement, the other 2 I will love. God must really hate Asians and Arabs and Indians as he pre chose them not to believe just by where they were born- obviously he hated their souls when he made them! Fuck Calvinism-fuck Christian philosophy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I agree that Calvinism is doctrinally sound, at least sort of. There are a lot of verses which speak of grace, belief and the like which those of the Armenian belief cite in refutation of Calvinism. Either way, it is an abominable religion, but I must say that Calvinism is more sickening to me than the others and they are all sickening to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Freedom of religion allows for this type of atrocious belief to be promoted and handed down to new generations of brainwashed nutters who think it's just and defendable for a so called God of love to damn us by election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I always countered pre destination in my head by scriptures like "all who call on the name of The Lord shall be saved". I hated the notion even as a believer but there is scripture to support it strongly which is disturbing. Throw it all out, flush the toilet and move on I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I always countered pre destination in my head by scriptures like "all who call on the name of The Lord shall be saved". I hated the notion even as a believer but there is scripture to support it strongly which is disturbing. Throw it all out, flush the toilet and move on I say! I so agree with you. The toilet is where it all belongs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkillusion Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Why didn't He JUST create ONLY those humans He foreknew would accept Jesus and then populate heaven with these people? An excellent question. I think one of the more amusing christian responses to it can be found here: http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/why-should-god-make-people-knowing-they-are-going-hell-forever Basically the apologist says that skeptics who ask this question are thinking with emotions, not logic. His first point is that there has to be bad people who get sent to hell otherwise there would have been no point in Jesus coming. So Jesus came to save the sinners, and there are sinners because otherwise what need is there for Jesus? Nicely circular. His second point is that hell is necessary (and therefore people who get sent to hell are necessary) so that we can have free will. If the only choice we had was heaven, well, that isn't a choice at all, and god wants to protect our free will! How sweet! IMO, the choice between heaven and burning for eternity in hell isn't much of a choice either, as has already been discussed in this thread. Also there are other ways to deal with "sinners" than by burning them for eternity. His third point, god's ways are beyond our ways! He must have good reasons we just don't understand them! And this makes it a just and good doctrine...how? Thank goodness he clears that up in his next point-we know god is just and good, therefore if he decides to create people that he knows will get sent to hell, that must be just and good too! OMG how did I ever believe this stuff. This reasoning is terrible. He doesn't come up with a single point that makes sense. I think that's saying something. If your instincts are telling you that the doctrine of hell is NOT RIGHT then stop trying to justify a god who sends people to hell! When does this reasoning ever make sense in any other aspect of our lives? Do we say (as an example), well the catholic church says that priests are good and ordained by god, so everything a priest does is good, therefore pedophilia is good. NO ONE says that. Child rape does not automatically become good just because we were told that a certain person has to be good and therefore everything they do is good. Why does god get a free pass for abominable actions? How come common sense goes out the window when we're talking about god? "Well these bronze age people said god is 100% good, so that means anything he does is good even if it doesn't seem that way" Why not look at the actions of such a "god" and judge him using your own intellect and reasoning? If he is truly good then that should be apparent. He shouldn't need shoddy apologists backing him up with BS arguments. Maybe it'd be okay if christians could just admit that the god they worship is not all just and all holy and all righteous. Then they wouldn't need to make so many excuses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Well, um... He had to fill up all the levels of Being, otherwise Being wouldn't be perfect (i.e. all the levels wouldn't be filled with beings)? Being wouldn't be perfect if level -348, the one out of all possible universes where the demon is shoving shit in someone's face with a red-hot poker, didn't have some sentient being in it to have the poker shoved in. All the levels filled = perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Didn't C.S Lewis renounce his faith through a book written under a fake name after his wife tipped over?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Didn't C.S Lewis renounce his faith through a book written under a fake name after his wife tipped over?? If you can prove that as a fact you can make a few million dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Didn't C.S Lewis renounce his faith through a book written under a fake name after his wife tipped over?? If you can prove that as a fact you can make a few million dollars. Please stop getting those from the nations around you to be your slave, Ironhorse. Stop it. It's not civilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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