bornagainathiest Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce The truth of whatever C.S. Lewis wrote about the Bible depends on the truth of the Bible. The truth of the Bible depends on the truth of Genesis 1:1 Q. Is Genesis 1:1 a true statement about reality? A. No. God did not create heaven and Earth. Science tells us this. Therefore, whatever C.S. Lewis writes about the Bible is predicated on the false notion that the Bible truthfully describes reality. Therefore, whatever C.S. Lewis writes about the Bible can be dismissed as false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 For your attention, Ironhorse. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravitational-wave-finding-causes-spring-cleaning-in-physics/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/multiverse-controversy-inflation-gravitational-waves/ Btw Ironhorse, this is not... just a theory...ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Lewis was wrong. If there is a hell, it was created by God. The rules for being consigned there are God's rules. For whatever form of Christianity one believes to be the great, divine truth, it was God who decided that eternal punishment was justified for whatever infraction. For one to have a free choice, one must understand the consequences of the choice. Given that hell is supposed to be eternal but we are finite, we mere mortals are incapable of even grasping to any degree the significance of everlasting punishment, that which endures always and is outside of time. As I said, Lewis was wrong. No human being is capable of making the choice to go to hell. If there is a hell, then only a being capable of comprehending infinity can understand the significance of an eternity of suffering and so is capable of making such a choice. In other words, it is God who makes the choice to send someone to hell because only God would be capable of making such a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 8, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Again, TinPony, hell is a false dichotomy, not only because there may be more options than heaven and hell, but also because heaven and hell are one and the same option. If I am honest about by doubts then I will go to hell. If I am dishonest about my doubts, then I am to spend eternity with the very god who was waiting to throw me into hell for having doubts. Worse still, I would be expected to worship that god. This option would, in effect, be hell for me. Therefore, whichever option I choose, I still end up in hell. Conclusion: I am going to hell through no choice of my own. C.S. Lewis was wrong and so are you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce "Knock and it shall be opened.' But does knocking mean hammering and kicking the door like a maniac?" C.S Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Christians believe: miscarried fetus= automatic heaven, no "trials" necessary (we all wished we were one of those) homeless man whose been suffering on the streets for 50 years, lonely hungry and cold = hell (he stole food, had sex with prostitutes to make himself feel better, and he never believed in a god who was never there for him. to hell with him!) spoilt wealthy child suddenly killed when struck in the head with a baseball = heaven impoverished, traumatized, severely abused child, grows up to become a sociopath after years of psychological damage = hell practicing fundamentalist Christian, abuses and neglects children, bullies neighbours, all-around d*ckhead = heaven practicing Buddhist, sets self on fire in government protest against oppression of his people = hell person who tortured animals = heaven (animals don't count) vegetarian hippie = probably hell Christian priest guilty of sexual abuse of children and embezzling money = heaven (he's not perfect just forgiven) Man and woman living together without marriage license = hell, definitely hell. Nobody knows why, but hell healthy, happy, Christian man lives comfortable life in the suburbs and dies in bed surrounded by loving family = heaven traumatized Vietnam war veteran, psychologically damaged, abuses wife and kids, kills self = hell You get the idea. If you ask me, God's got it all backwards. Why is he sending people to hell because they've had really hard lives, and sending those who already had good lives on to something even better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce "For many are called but few are chosen."Passage? Idgaf i know its in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Another logical fallacy (a false dichotomy this time) from one of the more popular logical fallacy addicts - C.S. Lewis. Christian Apologists can't get enough of him (or his logical fallacies). Most are addicts themselves. Poster Ironhorse is a classic example of a logical fallacy addict, and of a coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violetbutterfly Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce This is so absurd, it is almost comical. Then why is it that so many of us here were living in absolute misery while believers...believers being people who were actively seeking God, heaven and joy? You get the idea. If you ask me, God's got it all backwards. Why is he sending people to hell because they've had really hard lives, and sending those who already had good lives on to something even better? I really want to hear a supposed explanation for this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuker12 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 What about the very physical punishments god has doled out to people? What about those who get killed for their sins? Have they not endured their punishment already? It seems counterintuitive to give out a punishment of eternal hell for example to homosexuals who are already marked for death. Seems like they already got their punishment. How are they then going to repent from their sins? Besides, any amount of torture for having to live in this rigged system, feels just outright unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violetbutterfly Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 It seems counterintuitive to give out a punishment of eternal hell for example to homosexuals who are already marked for death. Seems like they already got their punishment. How are they then going to repent from their sins? Besides, any amount of torture for having to live in this rigged system, feels just outright unfair. Right. It's like being set up for a loss. God creates gay people but then expects them to resist all urges and worship him for it. I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and this topic is one of the very things that has always bothered me about Christianity. It was always the part that was brushed off as "Oh, it's just God working in mysterious ways." No, it's bullshit. The unfairness is what really got me questioning in the first place. And the examples rach posted above illustrate the point nicely, but sometimes it's even more subtle. For example: Someone I am very close to (and I stress this because I know things are not always what they seem, but in this case they are) was born into a happy, loving home. She had a good family who loved her, always had enough to eat and never had to go without. She was popular, had a lot of friends and got good grades in school. She met her husband when she was 16, and they were each other's first kiss. They both went to college, got married, got jobs, bought a nice house, had a perfect, healthy, beautiful child. They are happy, healthy and live a charmed life. I went into more detail in my testimonial, but I ended up marrying young because I was trying to do the right thing and be a good Christian, and ended up in misery, depression, and eventually divorcing. I passed up my true love (who I met in my teens) for my ex-husband, and we ended up reconnecting, but he is also now going through a divorce and I am technically "the other woman." I feel like my life is some gigantic irony. I was trying to be so Christian, and do what God wanted, and I thought my marriage was going to be blessed. But it was awful, it was torture. And when I left, I was a sinner. And an adulterer. And now my boyfriend is as well. I went through a period of severe depression, wondering why I had to even be put in the position of making a decision on whether I was going to be a sinner and burn in hell for my selfishness and lust or if I was going to stay in the horrible marriage and suffer in silence like Jesus did and go to heaven. And most of all, why didn't the other person I mentioned have to face the same decision? It's so easy to be happy and rejoiceful and think that God is great and awesome and amazing when you don't have a care in the world. What sins is she faced with? Whether or not to swear at someone who cut her off in traffic? She certainly doesn't have to choose whether or not she is going to burn in hell to be happy. But I had to choose. How the fuck is that fair? Also, while doing research one day, I came across a website encouraging people to keep the faith no matter how unfair life seems. One of the stories was about a woman who thought she had a great marriage, had a couple of kids, the whole deal. One day her husband died. Not only was she devastated over his death, she then found out that he had been living a double life and had contracted HIV. The woman and one of her kids were both HIV positive as a result. But that was just God doing his magic, and working in mysterious ways, and that woman should be thanking Jesus for the chance to be strong! I wanted to vomit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce This is so absurd, it is almost comical. Then why is it that so many of us here were living in absolute misery while believers...believers being people who were actively seeking God, heaven and joy? You get the idea. If you ask me, God's got it all backwards. Why is he sending people to hell because they've had really hard lives, and sending those who already had good lives on to something even better? I really want to hear a supposed explanation for this. C.S. Lewis was an intelligent man - except when it comes to religion - then he gets as nutso as all the rest. But since he is a "intellectual" Christians think quoting him makes them quite respectable. NO! IT DOES NOT. Never mind that he's doing the standard cherry picking of the Bible - his truly sinister twist on it is that the sinner puts himself there, and this isn't even present in the Bible. Has this man ever read Revelations? I doubt it. The notion that anyone who seriously seeks anything will get it is naive in the extreme. This is the statement of a willfully ignorant man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Going to link a WLC bit where he talks about the salvation of children. Warning: his excuses would make the concentration camps into guaranteed salvation camps for the 'unsaved' Jewish kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc Interesting. John Piper has a similar view: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-happens-to-infants-who-die It's interesting when even a staunch, sincere (and in my personal experience, highly intelligent) Reformed Baptist can't stomach his own doctrine. No shit. The idea of infants (heck even miscarriages since a fetus is a fully formed human in Calvinist circles) are somehow not under the curse of Adam makes zero sense. If every human is born under a curse, and if God is somehow so holy that he must punish sin, you have to do a whole lot of tap dancing to argue that infants are saved because they're infants. I suspect it's just a ply to keep people in the fold. Who's going to worship a God that sent Susan's three-week old baby who died of a fever to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse. Isaac Asimov Heaven sounds every bit as bad as hell. Who wants to spend every moment for eternity being a cosmic bootlicker? Whenever our pastor described a picture of heaven as all the saints worshipping God forever and ever withour ceasing I would ask myself "Are there actually people in this room who think this sounds like fun?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Why didn't He JUST create ONLY those humans He foreknew would accept Jesus and then populate heaven with these people? Because according to Reformed theology, God needed objects upon which to demonstrate his wrath. God is equal parts love and justice and somehow God's idea of justice is torturing little children for eternity. Don't ask why. God's ways are mysterious to man. Of course, this view of God usually is only revealed well after someone has been indoctrinated into Christianity. It's kind of a hard sell to potential converts. Kind of like Scientology in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJG Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce This is so absurd, it is almost comical. Then why is it that so many of us here were living in absolute misery while believers...believers being people who were actively seeking God, heaven and joy? You get the idea. If you ask me, God's got it all backwards. Why is he sending people to hell because they've had really hard lives, and sending those who already had good lives on to something even better? I really want to hear a supposed explanation for this. C.S. Lewis was an intelligent man - except when it comes to religion - then he gets as nutso as all the rest. But since he is a "intellectual" Christians think quoting him makes them quite respectable. NO! IT DOES NOT. Never mind that he's doing the standard cherry picking of the Bible - his truly sinister twist on it is that the sinner puts himself there, and this isn't even present in the Bible. Has this man ever read Revelations? I doubt it. The notion that anyone who seriously seeks anything will get it is naive in the extreme. This is the statement of a willfully ignorant man. The funny thing is that Calvinists love to quote C.S. Lewis when it suits their purposes, but from their perspective he would qualify as a heathen in many ways. For example, C.S. Lewis was an annihilationist. Calvinists get pissy when anyone questions the idea of hell as an eternal torture chamber. Lewis also was a big believer in libertarian free will, something Calvinists deny completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 No shit. The idea of infants (heck even miscarriages since a fetus is a fully formed human in Calvinist circles) are somehow not under the curse of Adam makes zero sense. If every human is born under a curse, and if God is somehow so holy that he must punish sin, you have to do a whole lot of tap dancing to argue that infants are saved because they're infants. I suspect it's just a ply to keep people in the fold. Who's going to worship a God that sent Susan's three-week old baby who died of a fever to hell? Heh, would you like to know what kind of sick, twisted bastard might rejoice in the justice of a God who sends Susan's baby to hell? Me. Back when I was a Christian I was a faithful disciple of John Piper, but this doctrine of his actually bothered me because it was inconsistent with the rest of the New Testament. I did believe that God sent aborted fetuses to hell. Indeed, my Bible study leader not only believed that God would send babies and fetuses to hell, but described this belief as a hill he'd be willing to die on, precisely because to believe otherwise was to deny the total depravity of man. My entire circle of Calvinist friends also thought that this was an important doctrine because without it, we had no good argument against abortion. If God saves aborted fetuses, then it's better to let mothers in non-Christian countries abort their fetuses with impunity, lest one of them be raised in a false religion and go to hell. Just thought I'd share that in case anyone wants a window into how the intellectual elite of the pro-life movement think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 13, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 13, 2014 No shit. The idea of infants (heck even miscarriages since a fetus is a fully formed human in Calvinist circles) are somehow not under the curse of Adam makes zero sense. If every human is born under a curse, and if God is somehow so holy that he must punish sin, you have to do a whole lot of tap dancing to argue that infants are saved because they're infants. I suspect it's just a ply to keep people in the fold. Who's going to worship a God that sent Susan's three-week old baby who died of a fever to hell? Heh, would you like to know what kind of sick, twisted bastard might rejoice in the justice of a God who sends Susan's baby to hell? Me. Back when I was a Christian I was a faithful disciple of John Piper, but this doctrine of his actually bothered me because it was inconsistent with the rest of the New Testament. I did believe that God sent aborted fetuses to hell. Indeed, my Bible study leader not only believed that God would send babies and fetuses to hell, but described this belief as a hill he'd be willing to die on, precisely because to believe otherwise was to deny the total depravity of man. My entire circle of Calvinist friends also thought that this was an important doctrine because without it, we had no good argument against abortion. If God saves aborted fetuses, then it's better to let mothers in non-Christian countries abort their fetuses with impunity, lest one of them be raised in a false religion and go to hell. Just thought I'd share that in case anyone wants a window into how the intellectual elite of the pro-life movement think... I came out of the assemblies of god, a Pentecostal denomination. They believe in the "age of accountability" which is different for each individual based on upbringing, intelligence, personality, etc. I supported abortion as a christian because I saw it as a sort of "get out of hell free" card. Surprisingly, I seemed to be in a minority of one amongst the other members of the church who were staunchly against abortion. They'd rather a lot of babies be born and raised in horrific conditions by people who can't provide for them or demonstrate any meaningful love for them, and as a result of such a horrible life, die in sin, than to send them as unborn fetuses straight on into the loving arms of the blessed baby jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 "Didn't C.S Lewis renounce his faith through a book written under a fake name after his wife tipped over??" afireinside I saw a documentary on TV years ago that indicated the CS Lewis was so crushed by the death of his wife from cancer that he wrote a book using a pseudonym. But the program did not say that he abandoned Xtianity. I don' know the name of the book or the pseudonym? Does any body here? bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 "Didn't C.S Lewis renounce his faith through a book written under a fake name after his wife tipped over??" afireinside I saw a documentary on TV years ago that indicated the CS Lewis was so crushed by the death of his wife from cancer that he wrote a book using a pseudonym. But the program did not say that he abandoned Xtianity. I don' know the name of the book or the pseudonym? Does any body here? bill It's called "A Grief Observed" and he used the pseudonym N.W Clerk. I was winding someone up the day I said that Bill. I used be a fan of his apologetics and that book always used to trouble me, firstly for the fact he used a fake name and secondly because he seemed to paint a picture of God as an artist of torture-constantly refering to God as a dentist. Christians don't like to reference that book much funnily enough. I feel sad for him that he couldn't mourn naturally he had to try and justify the belief God had snatched away his beloved only to bring him to a deeper faith. Poor guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Thanks, afireinside. I would like to read that book. Of course there are so many books I'd like to read that it is impossible to get to them all. But I'll make this book a priority. Thanks again. It'll be interesting to read his rationalizations. I'll give him his due: He is a good writer. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Thanks, afireinside. I would like to read that book. Of course there are so many books I'd like to read that it is impossible to get to them all. But I'll make this book a priority. Thanks again. It'll be interesting to read his rationalizations. I'll give him his due: He is a good writer. bill Yes, no doubting that. He should have stuck to writing fantasy though instead of trying to explain someone else's book of fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse. Isaac Asimov Heaven sounds every bit as bad as hell. Who wants to spend every moment for eternity being a cosmic bootlicker? Whenever our pastor described a picture of heaven as all the saints worshipping God forever and ever withour ceasing I would ask myself "Are there actually people in this room who think this sounds like fun?" I hope Asimov had a change of heart. Your pastor had a very shallow view of heaven. That unfortunately others have also been taught. The Bible I read has a much brighter and exciting view of Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Explain please. What enjoyment does Heaven offer? What significance would anybody have in Heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Explain please. What enjoyment does Heaven offer? What significance would anybody have in Heaven? What skill...like playing a piano or oil painting...would you like to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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