Chikirin Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 People talk in sound bites nowadays. Conservatives get all theirs from Fox news. But ex Christians and atheists need to beware of falling into that same lazy habit. An example is how atheists like to say that the bible was "written by bronze age sheepherders" and so therefore the bible isn't reliable. That's a cliche sound bite talking point. People need to express their own thoughts, not parrot and copy what other people say. I know it's difficult, it is tempting to appropriate the verbiage of others, especially when it sounds effective, but then you end up guilty of the same laziness as your opponents.
MerryG Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 sound bites sound bite talking point parrot Part of me kinda sees your point. Another part of me can't help but notice that, while urging others not to use easy cliches ... you pepper your paragraphs with borrowed terms that are themselves cliches. That's not to knock you. It's just to point out that picking up terms (and entire "shorthand" arguments) from others is normal human behavior. (The French "language police," for instance are known for issuing indignant condemnations of "impure" French. Then language scholars have a blast pointing out how many of the "French" words in those haughty condemnations were originally borrowed from English or German or whatever.) I think we should use arguments that are accurate and that work. Whether or not we borrowed parts of them from somebody else is not really an issue. Around here we hear the "bronze-age goatherder" argument enough that it does become a tired old cliche. But perhaps to some christian who's never heard it before it could be the catalyst for questioning the bible. 3
mymistake Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 People talk in sound bites nowadays. Conservatives get all theirs from Fox news. But ex Christians and atheists need to beware of falling into that same lazy habit. An example is how atheists like to say that the bible was "written by bronze age sheepherders" and so therefore the bible isn't reliable. That's a cliche sound bite talking point. People need to express their own thoughts, not parrot and copy what other people say. I know it's difficult, it is tempting to appropriate the verbiage of others, especially when it sounds effective, but then you end up guilty of the same laziness as your opponents. Is it okay if we do the research and discover the Old Testament was based on source material from bronze age sheepherders? I wouldn't want anybody to take it on faith.
Thought2Much Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I don't have a problem with using talking points as shorthand, so long as they have evidence to back them up when they are examined more closely. EDIT: I do understand that it's also not a good idea to speak in talking points too often, because then it does sound like you're just a parrot.
Deidre Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I was once Christian and now an atheist, and that's somewhat of a stereotype. But, sound bytes aren't effective in the sense that they're often taken totally out of context, and im the "byte" might sound worse than it was initially intended. So, good food for thought.
Thought2Much Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 There's no feature for editing posts here?? lol You have to have a minimum of 25 posts before you can edit them.
Roz Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Just me 2 cents, but I do use soundbites like "bronze age shepherds" because well... they were bronze age shepherds. If the emperor is indeed naked, why not say it? I do admit I'm guilty of tending to lump the hippy liberal Christians with the crazy fundie Christians. At least the fundies do stand by what they say. Hippy-ians tend to brush off the not-so-christlike stuff and like to weasel out of tough questions. 1
Chikirin Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 The "bronze age shepherd" thing has to stop. It is as bad as Christians saying atheists have no morals. There's nothing wrong with herding sheep or living in the bronze age. It's the asshole's way of saying those people were dumb. Which may be, but it's important to find your own words to express it.
Chikirin Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 sound bites sound bite talking point parrot Part of me kinda sees your point. Another part of me can't help but notice that, while urging others not to use easy cliches ... you pepper your paragraphs with borrowed terms that are themselves cliches. Bullshit, my use of those terms is so you know what i'm talking about. There's nothign wrong ewith my saying the term "talking point". Thats totally different than constantly saying "bronze age sheepherder." "Bronze age sheepherder" is an epithet not an actual word. Its an epithet that people keep copying because they think it sounds cool but just makes them look like an asshole. It's as obnoxious as Christians using "Truth" or "True" with a capital "T"
Roz Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Then by all means, live the life you want and keep on using your words. I'll keep on using mine. I never elected you for anything, and if you want to dictate what you want on me, I'll just say no. 2
Chikirin Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 Then by all means, live the life you want and keep on using your words. I'll keep on using mine. I never elected you for anything, and if you want to dictate what you want on me, I'll just say no. I'm not dicating! I'm suggesting. Don't be so sensitive! We have to be made aware of the lame phrases we use.
mymistake Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 The "bronze age shepherd" thing has to stop. It is as bad as Christians saying atheists have no morals. There's nothing wrong with herding sheep or living in the bronze age. It's the asshole's way of saying those people were dumb. Which may be, but it's important to find your own words to express it. You mean fresh ways to express it. Today's "own words" become the next cliche. They were not dumb. They were ignorant relative to today. They did live in the bronze age. That speaks to their technology. They were puzzled by mysteries that our children learn in first grade. Herding sheep, goats and various other farm animals was the peak of their culture. We send probes to other planets and use the internet. They had learned how to heard sheep. Yes they were envious and mistrusting of the city-states that lived in on the plains and profited from crops. That is why they developed their myth about Sodom and Gomorah. So yes they were shepherds of the age of bronze and all of this counters the claims made by Christians that the Bible is the word of the all knowing, all powerful, creator of the universe so we must live our lives and form our laws accordingly. That is an idea that we must counter because we do know where the sun goes at night and we do know that the world isn't flat and Pi is not 3.0 and a bat is not a bird and that disease is not caused by demons and that homosexuality is not an abomination and you can't build a tower so tall that it will reach heaven and prayer does nothing and sacrificing your children will not please the gods. And a thousand other things. But we don't always have the time to list them all (I didn't) so sometimes it's nice to have a concise shortcut.
Guest Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 The "bronze age shepherd" thing has to stop. It is as bad as Christians saying atheists have no morals. There's nothing wrong with herding sheep or living in the bronze age. It's the asshole's way of saying those people were dumb. Which may be, but it's important to find your own words to express it. There is nothing wrong with being a bronze age sheepherder per se, but trying to pass their beliefs off as a viable basis for 21st century legislation does have a lot wrong with it. Trying to teach their myth in science class is very wrong. Saying Atheists have no morals is an incorrect statement, based upon nothing. Saying the bible was written by bronze age goat herders is technically correct, based on historical fact. Although by the time the NT came around I believe it was the iron age...
midniterider Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yall are just a bunch of Internet-Age Data Herders. :-) 3
Thackerie Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Then by all means, live the life you want and keep on using your words. I'll keep on using mine. I never elected you for anything, and if you want to dictate what you want on me, I'll just say no. I'm not dicating! I'm suggesting. Don't be so sensitive! We have to be made aware of the lame phrases we use. Why? And who is in charge of deciding which phrases are "lame"? Nevermind. I'm with Roz on this. I'll continue saying whatever I want how ever I want to say it.
xtify Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Saying that the bible was written by bronze age sheepherders is a true statement. It might be a bit repetitive, but I do think that it is a striking statement that actually causes some people to question the validity of the claim that the bible is god's word. The typical statements that christians 'parrot' are false. Like, "the bible is the word of god"; "the bible is infallible"; "every word of the bible is true", blah blah blah. It's annoying mostly because it is total bs. To me, there's a big difference in repeating false statements as opposed to repeating true statements. I kind of get your point about not just repeating things that you've heard, but most of us here have read and studied the bible to the point that we know it's just a primitive book of myths from different cultures put together for political reasons. We know it's not the 'word of god'. Most of it was written by or about tribal sheep/goat herders and the morality it prescribes is from that age. If it's a true statement, why make restrictions about how and when it's used? Christians get pissy about the sheepherding statement, but who the f&*k cares? It IS the truth. 1
mymistake Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Then by all means, live the life you want and keep on using your words. I'll keep on using mine. I never elected you for anything, and if you want to dictate what you want on me, I'll just say no. I'm not dicating! I'm suggesting. Don't be so sensitive! We have to be made aware of the lame phrases we use. Correct. I do agree that we should not over generalize. The entire NT came during the Iron Age. And as I understand it Ezra created his major edit during the Iron Age as well. I've read all the major prophets and it does not do goat herders justice to call the prophets goat herders. Isaiah and Ezekiel were mental. It would have taken a trained psycologist and an in-person examination to do a proper diagnosis but even a layman can see something was wrong with these prophets' perception and judgement. But one of the things Ezra did was to take source material from many sources when he wove his religious text. And one of those sources was the myths and oral traditions of the nomadic people and formerly nomadic people he was trying to incorporate. Who knows how much Ezra altered them to force these stories to fit his agenda? But we do see some of the nomadic mentality shining through in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua and Judges. I think the key here is to know why the buzz words are true. We can try to change it up if our language gets stale but there is a limit as to how far that can go. Even Shakespeare has become a source of cliche today. It's the nature of language that we get tired of hearing something after it has been popular for a while. But often phrases become popular for being true or raising a good point. The Bible wasn't written by shepherds but some of the earliest material was written by those who wanted to control them.
Deidre Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 that ^^ was for the poster who told me that i can't edit until i hit 25 posts
Deidre Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I didn't leave religion/Christianity because I thought the Bible was archaic. I left it because it is a man made invention in which people tried to make sense of what they didn't know about their surroundings or themselves. Name calling will never open up a healthy dialogue with theists.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 The Bible wasn't written by shepherds but some of the earliest material was written by those who wanted to control them. Just to satisfy my curiosity, who were those people and why did they want to control them?
sdelsolray Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 People talk in sound bites nowadays. Conservatives get all theirs from Fox news. But ex Christians and atheists need to beware of falling into that same lazy habit. An example is how atheists like to say that the bible was "written by bronze age sheepherders" and so therefore the bible isn't reliable. That's a cliche sound bite talking point. People need to express their own thoughts, not parrot and copy what other people say. I know it's difficult, it is tempting to appropriate the verbiage of others, especially when it sounds effective, but then you end up guilty of the same laziness as your opponents. How's this: "I think we can agree that the books in the Bible were written between 4,000 and 2,000 years ago, give or take. During those times folks had many different occupations and endeavors, including animal husbandry, agriculture, mercantile, government, various metallurgical-based trades, philosophers, mathematicians and many others. I do not know who wrote the various books of the Bible. And neither do you." Now, none of that contains any original thought. It merely copies or parrots what others have said, although I did express it in my own words. Please demonstrate how I can pass your test by providing a statement with your own original thought(s). After all, I don't want to be considered lazy.
xtify Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Then by all means, live the life you want and keep on using your words. I'll keep on using mine. I never elected you for anything, and if you want to dictate what you want on me, I'll just say no. I'm not dicating! I'm suggesting. Don't be so sensitive! We have to be made aware of the lame phrases we use. Correct. I do agree that we should not over generalize. The entire NT came during the Iron Age. And as I understand it Ezra created his major edit during the Iron Age as well. I've read all the major prophets and it does not do goat herders justice to call the prophets goat herders. Isaiah and Ezekiel were mental. It would have taken a trained psycologist and an in-person examination to do a proper diagnosis but even a layman can see something was wrong with these prophets' perception and judgement. But one of the things Ezra did was to take source material from many sources when he wove his religious text. And one of those sources was the myths and oral traditions of the nomadic people and formerly nomadic people he was trying to incorporate. Who knows how much Ezra altered them to force these stories to fit his agenda? But we do see some of the nomadic mentality shining through in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua and Judges. I think the key here is to know why the buzz words are true. We can try to change it up if our language gets stale but there is a limit as to how far that can go. Even Shakespeare has become a source of cliche today. It's the nature of language that we get tired of hearing something after it has been popular for a while. But often phrases become popular for being true or raising a good point. The Bible wasn't written by shepherds but some of the earliest material was written by those who wanted to control them. Yeah, you are right. I feel a bit dumb for post #18 because it actually was written in the iron age and not actually by the shepherds. But, Abraham is believed to have lived between 2100 B.C.E. and 1900 B.C.E. and Moses was traditionally thought to have been born in 1527 B.C.E.. The Torah was written around 1444 B.C.E.. So, the law that Jesus came to save us from transgressing against is from the bronze age.
xtify Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 This is an article from the Huffington Post (US) about "Atheism's bronze age goat herder conceit". The graph with "arbitrary units, normalized to Sam Harris" on the vertical label is just dumb. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-wallace/atheisms-bronze-age-goat-herder-conceit_b_2398220.html
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