Positivist Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 I've been thinking about personality disorders lately and had recent social reasons to explore "dependent personality disorder" in more detail. reading the criteria made me think of my life as a fundagelical Christian. Dependent personality disorder is characterized by a pervasive psychological dependence on other people. People with DPD depend on others to meet their emotional and physical needs, with only a minority achieving normal levels of independence. DPD is characterized by an individual's pervasive and excessive need to be taken care of, which leads to submissive and clinging behavior and fears of separation. The criteria put forth in the DSM-IV (sorry--still haven't cracked open the DSM-V) describes the (now apparently obselete) criteria as follows. I will add in how the Christian (espeically fundagelicals like me ) meets that criteria. Has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others. Have a tough job decision to make? Ask God! Have a tough time knowing who to marry? Ask God! Can't decide what to make for supper? Ask God! Of course, God speaks through His PeopleTM so you can ask any of them to pray/consult as well. Whatever you do, do NOT make ANY decision without consulting God and/or His PeopleTM!! Otherwise, disaster will ensue. Needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her life. Well, for starters, you should NOT be taking responsibilty for your life AT ALL. You are in the Lord's hands! "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding!" God will take care of you. All you need to do is pray. Has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because of fear of loss of support or approval. Especially people in leadership. God has put them there--national, local and especially spiritual leaders are placed there by God to work something out in your life or the lives of others. Additionally--and disconcertingly--the Bible warns against speaking out against the Lord's AnnointedTM. If you disagree with something your pastor said, it's because you're wrong. Has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own (because of a lack of self-confidence in judgment or abilities rather than a lack of motivation or energy). We have to wait on God's timing for things. You can't just run out into the street and start making plans for your life; this will surely result in complete disaster and falling out of God's will. Wait on the Lord!!! Wait. Just. Wait. Goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others, to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant. Why do you think believers go to church every Sunday, but for the succor and nurturance of Our Heavenly Father and for the kindly fellowship of other believers who share our ideas? As for volunteering, God loves a cheerful servant. Keep giving! Keep giving and serving! You do it unto Him!!! Feels uncomfortable or helpless when alone because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for himself or herself. This is no exaggeration for the Christian. You can do NOTHING apart from God or Christ (the Vine). You are hopeless and helpless. You would be LOST without God! Your life would be OVER without Christ! To live is Christ! Urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends. Well, you should never consider leaving Christianity, because it's TruthTM and it's a hotline to God. But if you are that stupid, then, well, I guess all kinds of trouble will befall you and you'll start hanging out with atheists. You are told that you will never feel as whole, complete, joyful, and fulfilled as when you are a Christian. If you leave God, you leave The Good LifeTM. Is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of himself or herself. You are helpless without God. I know the Bible says he will never leave you; however, every day the believer has to conjure up a sense of God's nearness to assuage the vague feeling they are being suckered into a delusion. Individuals with DPD view others--like God or really spiritual people--as more capble to navigate life. People with DPD tend to avoid situations that require them to accept responsibility for themselves and their life decision. They continually look to others (God, spiritual leaders) to take the lead and provide continuous support. Individuals with DPD also tend to see themselves as inadequate and/or helpless. The Bible clearly teaches that we are both inadequate (except for God's grace! Except for the blood of Jesus, by which we are made somewhat OK) and helpless (but, thank heavens, I can do all things throught Christ which strengthens me). Believers and people with DPD believe they are in a cold and dangerous world and are unable to cope on their own--e.g. believers fear end times, and anything that sounds like sin and the bad world out there. Also, people with DPD consider themselves to be inept ("Oh, I'm not very smart, but God helps me") and turn their fate over to others ("Let's just pray about it. It's in God's hands. Let's put out a fleece".) Believers also may turn away from ambition--God wouldn't want them to be anything but a helpless child anyhow. People with DPD--and believers--see relationships with significant others as necessary for survival. Think of house groups, bible study groups, house churches, cell groups, etc. They do not see themselves as able to function independently, but rather as part of "the body of Christ". They crave and need these supportive relationships with people who share their whacky delusions to be able to manage their lives. Can anyone else relate to this? Do you think the DPDs are drawn to Christianity because God is a foolproof friend who will never leave? Or do you think Christianity makes people develop DPD? Hmmmmm. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 4
Storm Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 I think I see where you are going with this, however I would bring up one important thing about diagnosing with the DSM. While a person can meet the criteria for a specific diagnosis at any given time in their life, one of the things that needs to be considered is whether or not the characteristics of the diagnosis presents itself as a problem for the person who is being diagnosed. Case in point, many people meet the criteria for alcohol abuse and possibly dependence while enjoying their college years attending frat parties and the like, but they are fully functioning and capable of graduating school and never really having any alcohol related problems the rest of their life. Most Christians function within the normal realm of societal rules and norms, thus making it unlikely that a diagnosis of DPD is accurate. DSM is designed to diagnose and create a list of criteria that identifies Disorders and that allows for their treatment. I know its kind of a bummer, but I don't see it as a problem that would require counseling and intervention to return to norms of society. It is a problem for those of us who have to deal with the fundie stuff regularly, but in terms of a specific malady or need for a diagnosis, I find that its not really going to fly. But its fun to look at it and see how the criteria match people you know... 2
Moderator Margee Posted April 2, 2014 Moderator Posted April 2, 2014 Good topic P! I think the whole world is 'disordered' to a certain degree, simply due to the fact that we are human. We long for protection. We are generally a fearful species because we are so incredibly aware of our certain death. It's one of the reasons (I think) that the whole world has all the different religions...so they can a have a god to trust in, look to for protection, etc..... Obviously, if one looks around, he doesn't do a very good job at all. I feel this subject goes beyond christianity and to all the other belief systems of the world. I was looking a tthe amount of disorders we have listed today and it is quite amazing how just getting up in the morning in a bad mood can now be classified as a 'disorder'. I think I have a little of every 'disorder' in my personality and I'm not on medication for none of them.....Lol
RipVanWinkle Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 If a Xtian really does believe god or jesus will counsel her, and prays for help and then takes action based upon what she thinks god has told her, then I would not consider her to have a dependent personality. That's because this she is in fact depending upon herself. The "god" she thinks is answering her prayer is not real. But her thinking is just as screwed up or more so as a dependent person because the foundation of her knowledge is nothing but myth. Her concept of reality is distorted. So, in my opinion a true believing Xtian is worse off than one that has a dependent personality because the former's world view is not based upon reality, whereas the latter's view is based upon another human who may or may not be misinformed. So at least the latter has a chance of getting good advice. Although the xtian may not come to an erroneous conclusion every time, she is likely to do so more often than the non-christian who is free to make judgments on her perception of reality, rather than on manuscripts thousands of years old. bill
Guest ninurta Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 The light usage of personality disorder diagnostics aren't very helpful for those actually suffering from these disorders. Just saying. 1
Roz Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 You know, some of those things did pertain to me. especially #8 when I was deep into fundamentalism. We've all heard the term "you can't be good without god" and boy did that stick. I still feel some echoes of that helpless feeling, but now it's like sitting in my own car for the first time, in the driver's seat. Hell it's like learning to drive a stick shift for the first time instead of just cruising in an automatic heh. The personality disorder was instilled at childhood, and now as an adult I still can't fully shake it off. It's very powerful.
Positivist Posted April 2, 2014 Author Posted April 2, 2014 I realize the DSM is controversial and increasingly so. I do not mean to offend. I just saw the criteria and I was reminded of how I was (which was how I was supposed to be) as a Christian. I agree--we are all pathological to some degree. I have my own problems, that's for sure.
Positivist Posted April 2, 2014 Author Posted April 2, 2014 Most Christians function within the normal realm of societal rules and norms, thus making it unlikely that a diagnosis of DPD is accurate. Like many pathologies, its not enough of an impediment at subclinical levels to warrant a diagnosis. We see this not only in mental health, but any other lab tests as well. There are "normal" ranges outside of which you may (or may not) see other signs of illness appear. So, while I, myself, was VERY "DPD-like" when I was a hardcore Christian, a diagnosis was unlikely; however, my level of impediment was significant and almost destroyed me and any hope of a "normal" life.
Positivist Posted April 2, 2014 Author Posted April 2, 2014 YWe've all heard the term "you can't be good without god" and boy did that stick. I used to always say (and I meant it!) that "Anything good in me is God; anything bad in me is me." That's so sad.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 Most Christians function within the normal realm of societal rules and norms, thus making it unlikely that a diagnosis of DPD is accurate. Like many pathologies, its not enough of an impediment at subclinical levels to warrant a diagnosis. We see this not only in mental health, but any other lab tests as well. There are "normal" ranges outside of which you may (or may not) see other signs of illness appear. So, while I, myself, was VERY "DPD-like" when I was a hardcore Christian, a diagnosis was unlikely; however, my level of impediment was significant and almost destroyed me and any hope of a "normal" life. I get what you are saying. I think when we have significant impairment that seems like a PD but is at a subclinical level what we really have is PD traits. It can be helpful to understand those traits and the impact they have on our lives even though it is not an actual PD. I try to notice the effects growing up xian had on my personality development, accept them, and then I can move on and celebrate how well I am recovering from it. Sort of "catch and release" if you get what I mean. 1
bornagainathiest Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 Hi Postivist! Since you're digging into the psychological aspects of Christian belief, perhaps you'd be interested in these? http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/patternicity-finding-meaningful-patterns/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/skeptic-agenticity/ Shermer posits the notion that we all inherit evolutionary tendencies to see patterns, where only random noise exists. Some people do this more strongly than others. Having concluded that there are patterns in reality, some people are more apt than others to attribute those patterns to... Invisible Intentional Agents. They (falsely) see design and pattern and order in the universe and attribute these features according to their cultural and societal bias. So modern-day Christians see an Intelligent Designer, whereas ancient Egyptians saw a pantheon of humanoid Gods. Both notions are false, but both notions seem to emanate from evolutionary traits from deep in our hominid past. Here's Shermer's latest offering. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-atheist-be-in-awe-of-universe/ I find myself leaning towards the Patternicity/Agenticity argument, for the following reasons. 1. It's cross-cultural and independent of time and place. 2. It's explains a great deal, with the fewest amount of assumptions. 3. It doesn't have any of the negative connotations associated with the words, 'Personality Disorders'. Instead it just seeks to explain why we think the way we do. Thanks, BAA p.s. If these links don't work (my computer's got some kind of weird glitch today ) just Google ScientificAmerican + Patternicity and ScientificAmerican + Agenticity. That should work. 3
sdelsolray Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 Are Christians Personality Disordered? Some may be. Most certainly are not.
Positivist Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 Shermer posits the notion Hi BAA! Shermer played a big role in my deconversion. Very helpful!! Thanks for the links!!
kolaida Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 I think some definitely are, or better yet, they already were and Christianity (usually more extreme-- and this goes to other religious beliefs that would be similar to Christianity) aggravates it, enforces it, and makes a person believe it is normal or, if you recognize something is wrong, you believe it is demons/evil instead of recognizing it for what it really is. It's kind of like Christianity puts glasses you on that warps you perceptions of everything but you believe all the warping is normal. If that makes any sense....
Positivist Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 I think some definitely are, or better yet, they already were and Christianity (usually more extreme-- and this goes to other religious beliefs that would be similar to Christianity) aggravates it, enforces it, and makes a person believe it is normal.... I wonder about that too. Maybe that's why people with certain mental illnesses are drawn to charismatic churches. And maybe that's why Christianity preys on perceived needs (and heightens awareness of them). Hmmmm.
Positivist Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 Some may be. Most certainly are not. I think the extreme cases stand out to me. I suppose if I back off from a case-by-case observation, and view this issue from a population-level perspective of Christians, perhaps you're right. But gosh. Those extreme cases--and I was one--are so sad.
Positivist Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 The DSM V gets some bad rap in a few ways. A lot of people in the Autistic Community (of which I am becoming an active member) were afraid that the DSM V would make it harder to get a diagnosis, but that's not really the case (I got my diagnosis under the DSM V). As a matter of fact, it makes it clearer what defines autism spectrum behavior and makes the diagnosis more accurate. People who got diagnosis under the DSM IV will retain theirs under the DSM V. Unfortunately, it appears that insurance companies have taken the opportunity to quit paying for autism-related treatments because of the restructuring of autism diagnosis. The other issue with the DSM-V, I believe, is that in some "diagnoses" the catchment of affected persons is beyond that which truly reflects pathology. I tell new and student practitioners that "we're all in the DSM somewhere". At what point along a continuum should stop pathologizing ranges of normalcy? I'm glad the DSM-V has helped you. I think that's the bottom line for any version of the DSM: the DSM should help people understand what is going on and point to ways to not only survive but thrive. 2
Storm Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Hi Postivist! Since you're digging into the psychological aspects of Christian belief, perhaps you'd be interested in these? http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/patternicity-finding-meaningful-patterns/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/skeptic-agenticity/ Shermer posits the notion that we all inherit evolutionary tendencies to see patterns, where only random noise exists. Some people do this more strongly than others. Having concluded that there are patterns in reality, some people are more apt than others to attribute those patterns to... Invisible Intentional Agents. They (falsely) see design and pattern and order in the universe and attribute these features according to their cultural and societal bias. So modern-day Christians see an Intelligent Designer, whereas ancient Egyptians saw a pantheon of humanoid Gods. Both notions are false, but both notions seem to emanate from evolutionary traits from deep in our hominid past. Here's Shermer's latest offering. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-atheist-be-in-awe-of-universe/ I find myself leaning towards the Patternicity/Agenticity argument, for the following reasons. 1. It's cross-cultural and independent of time and place. 2. It's explains a great deal, with the fewest amount of assumptions. 3. It doesn't have any of the negative connotations associated with the words, 'Personality Disorders'. Instead it just seeks to explain why we think the way we do. Thanks, BAA p.s. If these links don't work (my computer's got some kind of weird glitch today ) just Google ScientificAmerican + Patternicity and ScientificAmerican + Agenticity. That should work. Good Stuff BAA. Thanks for sharing.
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