I Guess I Messed Up.

[RipVanWinkle]

As many of you may know my wife is still a christian and we agreed that the subject of faith and religion would be taboo. With the exception of a slip up here and there by me, it has worked well. Until today.

My 34 year old daughter and her 4 year old daughter were visiting us today. My granddaughter recently had a sinus infection and was treated with antibiotics successfully. My daughter said, "Thank God for antibiotics". Well I'm sure you can guess what's coming. I said that god was not the one who gave us antibiotics. They were created by a scientist in the 1790's. Before that we had no defense to bacterial infections. She just chuckled and that was the end of it . I thought.

 

Later in the day I was eating dinner with my wife and I sensed something was wrong. you married men know what I mean. Time slowed down. The room temperature went up. Dishes started to levitate and then crash into the walls. Hmmm. "Darling, is there something wrong?" "Nothing at all", she said. I said, "Well you and I have been married a long time and I thought I could sense........".   "Why did you make that disparaging comment to our daughter about god?", she said. (my wife was not present when I had the discussion with my daughter.)

 

So a "discussion" ensued. She was clearly mad and told me that I should know that that was wrong. 

I explained that I had just pointed out that it was a human, not god who should get the credit. Well, she said that  Whitney (our daughter) doesn't want to hear that kind of thing and that I should know that. She felt that our agreement also applied to our daughter and that my disbelief should not be discussed with her.

 

I did not know that Whitney had any objection to this kind of thing. If I had I would not have said anything. Well, I told myself to not concern myself with the lack of logic to what my wife was saying and instead decide what I should do. My wife didn't want me to talk of such things to any of our adult children. I told her that I wold not talk about god to anyone who doesn't want me to do so. That seemed to satisfy her to some extent. 

 

But I didn't tell her that I will talk with any of our children who permits it. I didn't tell her that because 

I knew it would extend the argument---I mean discussion. One, who is very religious, has already asked me not to talk religion with him. As to the remaining three, they have no problem with it. So, the only thing I need to do with them is to get them to agree not to pass on our conversations on religion to to their mother.

 

I don't think I have ever asked them to keep anything a secret from their mother. And I don't like it. But in this situation, I think it makes the best sense. Any comments or suggestions?   bill

[FreeThinkerNZ]

As many of you may know my wife is still a christian and we agreed that the subject of faith and religion would be taboo. With the exception of a slip up here and there by me, it has worked well. Until today.

My 34 year old daughter and her 4 year old daughter were visiting us today. My granddaughter recently had a sinus infection and was treated with antibiotics successfully. My daughter said, "Thank God for antibiotics". Well I'm sure you can guess what's coming. I said that god was not the one who gave us antibiotics. They were created by a scientist in the 1790's. Before that we had no defense to bacterial infections. She just chuckled and that was the end of it . I thought.

 

Later in the day I was eating dinner with my wife and I sensed something was wrong. you married men know what I mean. Time slowed down. The room temperature went up. Dishes started to levitate and then crash into the walls. Hmmm. "Darling, is there something wrong?" "Nothing at all", she said. I said, "Well you and I have been married a long time and I thought I could sense........".   "Why did you make that disparaging comment to our daughter about god?", she said. (my wife was not present when I had the discussion with my daughter.)

 

So a "discussion" ensued. She was clearly mad and told me that I should know that that was wrong. 

I explained that I had just pointed out that it was a human, not god who should get the credit. Well, she said that  Whitney (our daughter) doesn't want to hear that kind of thing and that I should know that. She felt that our agreement also applied to our daughter and that my disbelief should not be discussed with her.

 

I did not know that Whitney had any objection to this kind of thing. If I had I would not have said anything. Well, I told myself to not concern myself with the lack of logic to what my wife was saying and instead decide what I should do. My wife didn't want me to talk of such things to any of our adult children. I told her that I wold not talk about god to anyone who doesn't want me to do so. That seemed to satisfy her to some extent. 

 

But I didn't tell her that I will talk with any of our children who permits it. I didn't tell her that because 

I knew it would extend the argument---I mean discussion. One, who is very religious, has already asked me not to talk religion with him. As to the remaining three, they have no problem with it. So, the only thing I need to do with them is to get them to agree not to pass on our conversations on religion to to their mother.

 

I don't think I have ever asked them to keep anything a secret from their mother. And I don't like it. But in this situation, I think it makes the best sense. Any comments or suggestions?   bill

 

I agree, it seems to make the best sense to ask them to not pass your conversations about religion to their mother.

 

I think your wife was violating boundaries by saying you "should" have known your daughter didn't want to discuss religion.  There is no evidence that Whitney said that to her mother, only that your wife interpreted whatever she said that way.  The only way to know what Whitney wants is to ask Whitney.

 

I suspect that your wife may have boundary issues that arise from her xianity.  You are clearly doing a fantastic job of navigating this challenging part of your relationship with her.  Well done.

[Woodsy]

Hi Bill, if it was me, I just wouldn't be able to NOT share everything with my husband whether he liked it or not.  It's tough, I know, but I believe being honest in a marriage is best.  Maybe I'm old fashioned but it works with us.  Hang in there, friend.  

[xtify]

Your wife might hold on to the hope that your daughter is going to hear from god someday.  If you want things to stay peaceful, it's probably better that you don't talk to your daughter about your lack of belief openly.  I say that because, if your adult daughter did stop believing in god because of something you said, your wife would likely blame you, big time.  You might be blamed anyway if she stops believing in god, but if you don't say anything, you can atleast dispute that conclusion.  

 

I don't think that your wife is right, but, at the same time, it's a sensitive issue.  Your wife might actually believe that you are jeopardizing your daughter's and grandaughter's safety if she has lingering doubts about the reality of hell.  You probably did the right thing by conceding to her request (if you want to stay happily married, emphasis on happily).

[TrueFreedom]

That sucks.  I hate walking on egg shells.  I don't bring up a lot with my extended family, but I do try to take opportunities to plant seeds.  I hate that politics and religion are so religious and divisive.  Good luck!

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Bill. It's a delicate balance you have to maintain. On the one hand, you and your wife have reached what seems to be a reasonable truce. That seems good to me for the sake of your marriage. However, now it seems that she has broadened the truce to disallow such conversations with your children. Unless I am mistaken, she is allowed to discuss God with them, but you are not allowed to discuss the other viewpoint with your adult children.

 

Whether you do or don't discuss such things with your adult children is your private decision and I will not give an opinion on that. However, I will give an opinion on whether you should ask your children not to tell their mother about your discussions with them about God. I don't think you should do that for the sake of your children. If you do, then you may be placing an uncomfortable burden on your children. Essentially, they will be asked to keep things from one parent which forces them to choose sides. That is a tough thing for your children to decide.

 

In my view, you should expect that all conversations with your children will be shared with their mother. The other side of it is that it works both ways. Any conversations your wife has with your children should also be shared with you if your children so choose. In other words, it is an equal relationship and none of your children should be expected to keep things from either of their parents.

 

To me, this should be the topic of conversation with your wife. You both should agree not to ask your children to keep secret any topics either of you discuss with them, excluding such obvious things like a planned surprise birthday party and the like.

[kolaida]

Well, wow.  Is that really a mess up? Seems like a pretty little thing to me that got blown out of proportion.  I mean, if your daughter had a problem with it, why not just tell you when it's first mentioned? She could have said, "Yeah, but those scientists were inspired by god." (Clearly, I don't believe that, but she could have gone that route) or she could have told you herself she didn't want hear it, or maybe even say it was just a habitual saying (it is kinda a cultural thing to say "thank god" for something. I find some people have have never taken god that seriously to say it).  There was no reason for her to go and stir the s***pot by going to your wife about it. 

 

Anyway, I know she's daughter and maybe she was having an off day. You obviously weren't aware of her feelings and that's no one's fault but her own.  And obviously no one can or should expect you to be a freakin mind-reader. 

 

It sounds like the family is pretty much aware of what is going on already, so I don't see the need for secrets.  I don't know this girl, but I wouldn't trust her. I never tell my mom anything important because she goes and shares it with EVERYONE, it's like she can't help it even if it's extremely personal and then she asks everyone not to mention she brought it up and, of course, one or two siblings will let me know that mom told them, yadda yadda and sometimes it's even my dad (but I think my mom puts him up to when he gets in contact).  But anyway, I rarely tell secrets to anyone, but I sure don't tell them to someone that has blabbed even if only once (unless it was life or death, which has never been a circumstance, unsurprisingly, lol!). Anyway, I ramble! 

 

Hope all is well!! And I'd hardly call this you messing up, just dealing with some drama in your life, LOL!  

[RipVanWinkle]

"Hi Bill, if it was me, I just wouldn't be able to NOT share everything with my husband whether he liked it or not.  It's tough, I know, but I believe being honest in a marriage is best.  Maybe I'm old fashioned but it works with us.  Hang in there, friend. " Woodsy 

 

What you say makes sense, but my wife is like a lot of Xtians in that she gets very emotional (hostile) with questions about her faith or in discussing reasons for my agnosticism. I love her very much and yet she is not easy to keep on an even keel, if you know what I mean. She's not here to defend herself, so that's all I'll say about that. But I will say that it would be asking for trouble for me to try to discuss these things with my wife. The thing is, she feels no compunction against talking favorably about the faith with Whitney and her daughter. She would not see the inconsistency there or if she did she still would insist on talking with Whitney and her daughter about the faith anyway because she believes it. I know that's unfair, but I think I would make mistake in insisting on having the same right to discuss agnosticism with Whitney. My priority is to keep our marriage as happy as it can be, notwithstanding our different beliefs about god. Gawd it is so frustrating to not be able to discus this subject in a logical manner. Thank you for your thoughts. I always love getting your point of view.  bill

[RipVanWinkle]

"If you want things to stay peaceful, it's probably better that you don't talk to your daughter about your lack of belief openly.  I say that because, if your adult daughter did stop believing in god because of something you said, your wife would likely blame you, big time."  xtify 

 

Now that's something I hadn't considered.  For some reason I never thought of that possibility. And is is a real possibility. And it would be far worse if my granddbill

[RipVanWinkle]

"However, I will give an opinion on whether you should ask your children not to tell their mother about your discussions with them about God. I don't think you should do that for the sake of your children."  Overcame Faith

 

 

I do see your point and I have always been forthcoming in that regard. I am going to ask Whitney to come directly to my if she has any problem with me of any kind. This will avoid some unnecessary hurt feelings. Thanks a lot for your thoughts which are always good.   bill

[pratt]

well, i dont think it was a messed up anyway,,,,,,

 

maybe next time, just the facts,,,, antibiotics was discovered and manufactured by xxxxxx, and no need to bring god into your conversation,,,,,,

[RogueScholar]

I'm not really in any position of authority when it comes to these things. You've been with your wife for a while, have children and have devoted a significant portion of your life to the relationship. That must be difficult and I do not want to ignore that with my comments. I too am married and have devoted significant time to the relationship. I must also admit I was a very different person when my wife married me and to some extent what I've done is not fair to her and not at all what she signed on for.

 

However, I have to be true to myself and my skepticism. We had a period where my atheism was just not discussed. This is something I can no longer tolerate as I become more and more convinced that people need to talk and faith based beliefs need to be called out for what they are.

 

This also means I'm willing to accept the consequences and will wholeheartedly support and love my wife if she were to decide that our incompatible beliefs were a deal breaker. This would be devastating and I would have to deal with the loss of a relationship that has spanned most of my adult life. Fortunately, this does not seem to be the case. If anything, we've had a few good conversations recently. While she identifies as a Christian in a sense, she does not believe in the bible literally, nor does she accept most of Christianity. Honestly, I think she's a deist who has yet to drop the Christian label. Regardless, I love her and I am grateful for our relationship.

 

To thine own self be true mate. Individual mileage may vary however. Best of luck.

[midniterider]

As many of you may know my wife is still a christian and we agreed that the subject of faith and religion would be taboo. With the exception of a slip up here and there by me, it has worked well. Until today.

My 34 year old daughter and her 4 year old daughter were visiting us today. My granddaughter recently had a sinus infection and was treated with antibiotics successfully. My daughter said, "Thank God for antibiotics". Well I'm sure you can guess what's coming. I said that god was not the one who gave us antibiotics. They were created by a scientist in the 1790's. Before that we had no defense to bacterial infections. She just chuckled and that was the end of it . I thought.

 

Later in the day I was eating dinner with my wife and I sensed something was wrong. you married men know what I mean. Time slowed down. The room temperature went up. Dishes started to levitate and then crash into the walls. Hmmm. "Darling, is there something wrong?" "Nothing at all", she said. I said, "Well you and I have been married a long time and I thought I could sense........".   "Why did you make that disparaging comment to our daughter about god?", she said. (my wife was not present when I had the discussion with my daughter.)

 

So a "discussion" ensued. She was clearly mad and told me that I should know that that was wrong. 

I explained that I had just pointed out that it was a human, not god who should get the credit. Well, she said that  Whitney (our daughter) doesn't want to hear that kind of thing and that I should know that. She felt that our agreement also applied to our daughter and that my disbelief should not be discussed with her.

 

I did not know that Whitney had any objection to this kind of thing. If I had I would not have said anything. Well, I told myself to not concern myself with the lack of logic to what my wife was saying and instead decide what I should do. My wife didn't want me to talk of such things to any of our adult children. I told her that I wold not talk about god to anyone who doesn't want me to do so. That seemed to satisfy her to some extent. 

 

But I didn't tell her that I will talk with any of our children who permits it. I didn't tell her that because 

I knew it would extend the argument---I mean discussion. One, who is very religious, has already asked me not to talk religion with him. As to the remaining three, they have no problem with it. So, the only thing I need to do with them is to get them to agree not to pass on our conversations on religion to to their mother.

 

I don't think I have ever asked them to keep anything a secret from their mother. And I don't like it. But in this situation, I think it makes the best sense. Any comments or suggestions?   bill

 

Something similar happened to me years ago. It was a comment I made about my girlfriend to her friend. I'll admit it was a mistake on my part though at the time I didn't think it was a 'bad comment' I was saying. My girlfriend thought differently. :-) I knew never to ever tell her friend anything I didnt want getting back to my girlfriend.

 

Now you know that anything you tell Whitney is going to get back to the wife.

 

On the one hand  I'd say pick your battles. A lot of people use the phrase "Thank God for whatever" without a religious intent. Just like I say "Goddammit" and "Jesus Christ" as expletives and likely always will though I dont necessarily believe in either one. Talk is cheap.

 

On the other hand I don't think I would want to be silenced either. You both have a right to speak and you both have a right to your differing opinions.  Does your wife ever slip up to you and say some Jesusy thing? And do you call her on it?

 

In this particular case with Whitney you didn't even bring it up. Whitney did, if you want to get technical. So I guess from now on whenever one of the kids says anything like "God bless you" to you then you get to report that to the wife so she can counsel them. It's only fair that she correct them if she respects you and your belief system, right? :-) Or is Christianity the only thing that gets respected?

 

Probably not a big enough deal to get into another argument about. Just think about how you will arm yourself next time it comes up.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

"However, I will give an opinion on whether you should ask your children not to tell their mother about your discussions with them about God. I don't think you should do that for the sake of your children."  Overcame Faith

 

 

I do see your point and I have always been forthcoming in that regard. I am going to ask Whitney to come directly to my if she has any problem with me of any kind. This will avoid some unnecessary hurt feelings. Thanks a lot for your thoughts which are always good.   bill

 

I'd mull that over for a while before going ahead and asking her that.  What if she goes right back to her mother and drops you in it again?

 

Your children were raised by a xian mother with boundary issues, it's likely that they too struggle with boundaries, which led to this issue in the first place.  I don't know how much of the responsibility lies with your wife or your daughter but to me they both seems to have these issues.  Bottom line is your daughter needs to learn to respect the relationship you and your wife have and avoid telling tales behind either of your backs.  She will have to figure this out for herself though.

 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I never tell my mom anything important because she goes and shares it with EVERYONE, it's like she can't help it even if it's extremely personal and then she asks everyone not to mention she brought it up and, of course, one or two siblings will let me know that mom told them, yadda yadda and sometimes it's even my dad (but I think my mom puts him up to when he gets in contact).  But anyway, I rarely tell secrets to anyone, but I sure don't tell them to someone that has blabbed even if only once (unless it was life or death, which has never been a circumstance, unsurprisingly, lol!). Anyway, I ramble! 

 

 

My family is exactly the same.  I wonder if it's a xianity thing.

[Deva]

Of course I'm not married, but I know I wouldn't be able to accept being given an order by my spouse that there would be an area of conversation off limits with other adults. To say that wouldn't go well would be an understatement.  That was a very unfair demand and as others have said, out of limits.

 

If someone doesn't want to talk about a certain subject, I would respect that, but they can't demand that I not talk to others about it. That is being controlling.

 

People use expressions like "thank god" all the time and probably 9 times out of ten they don't even know what they are saying, its just an expression.  Heck, I think I even use it from time to time. So, maybe just let expressions like that go, but of course, that's completely up to you.

[RipVanWinkle]

I think perhaps the fact that my wife and I have been married for 51 years puts a different perspective on this matter for me than some of you guys, which is certainly  understandable. Whatever my wife and I have done in our relationship, it has worked for all that time. It has not been a miserable marriage in which both parties merely tolerate each other. We have five adult children, three of whom we adopted. There have been, however, a lot of ups and downs, as you would expect. But all in all a good marriage. Some one said she thought this has been blown out of proportion. With  all due respect, no it hasn't  

 

In a "mixed" marriage  Xtianity can be like a bomb that can go off any time without warning, Xtiianity can change a relationship between the married parties very quickly under some circumstances, specifically where the Xtian partner suddenly gets more "devout".

 

The fact is my wife sees my conversation with Whitney as a violation of our agreement, in spirit at the least. That is evident by the fact that she said she  was upset with me for merely pointing out that antibiotics were made by man, not god. I was merely stating a fact. Neither Whitney nor my wife liked where my statement of fact could, but did not, lead. I did not want to argue that to my wife, though, because I knew where that would lead. By  my response to her I have already chosen not to discus religious matters with either Whitney or her mother. I can certainly live with that. I have decided to ask Whitney to come to me to discus any problem she has with me. I think she will honer my request. I hope I can get my wife's support for this. If not, I do indeed have a serious problem with both of them.   bill

[jobear]

I don't see how anyone could be offended by what you said, even if they are christian. Giving humans credit for what they do does not mean you're an atheist or trying to get her to be one. I don't believe you messed up - I believe others are being over-sensitive to what you say.

[jobear]

 

The fact is my wife sees my conversation with Whitney as a violation of our agreement, in spirit at the least. 

 

I'm sorry she feels that way. It seems to me that you only agreed not to talk to *her* about your beliefs, not other people...but I also see how it could be tricky if "other people" is your children.  I don't have any advice, but I do hope things turn out ok for you.

[amateur]

Having been married once for 15 years and this time for 4, I'd say that the one rule I go by in marriage is, "Keep your eyes wide open before you marry, and half-closed afterwards."  People are allowed their unique ideas and quirks, and as long as what your spouse is doing isn't physically or mentally harming you, I'd let it go.

 

Yeah, it would annoy me to be told I wasn't allowed to make a relatively minor comment to my own adult child.  I would definitely come on here and vent, or vent to a trusted girlfriend.  Get it out of my system, then go home cheerfully.

 

I also don't think it's necessary for 100% honesty under all circumstances, at all times, in a marriage.  You don't have to let every thought in your head escape through your mouth.  I'm not saying to blatantly lie or withhold important information, but sometimes venting to a friend or on here, and never mentioning it at home, is a really good idea.

 

I don't need to know every thought that goes through my husband's head about me, either!  *shudder!*  

 

I just reread your comment above about the xianity angle.  That is certainly a huge thing.  It sounds like you have a good idea in continuing to not have "religious" discussions, and to ask your daughter to come to you first if she has a problem with something you do or say.  Then do your part in letting the whole matter drop.

 

Good luck!

[RipVanWinkle]

Jobear: Thank you for your support. 

 

"Keep your eyes wide open before you marry, and half-closed afterwards." amateur

 

I've never heard it put that way but it is absolutely true. Not only will one find out soon enough that his/her spouse  is not all he/she thought when they were married, but one will also learn just as many if not more shortcomings in himself/herself. Without a lot of forgiveness a marriage is doomed.  Thanks, amateur.  bill

[midniterider]

I think perhaps the fact that my wife and I have been married for 51 years puts a different perspective on this matter for me than some of you guys, which is certainly  understandable. Whatever my wife and I have done in our relationship, it has worked for all that time. It has not been a miserable marriage in which both parties merely tolerate each other. We have five adult children, three of whom we adopted. There have been, however, a lot of ups and downs, as you would expect. But all in all a good marriage. Some one said she thought this has been blown out of proportion. With  all due respect, no it hasn't  

 

In a "mixed" marriage  Xtianity can be like a bomb that can go off any time without warning, Xtiianity can change a relationship between the married parties very quickly under some circumstances, specifically where the Xtian partner suddenly gets more "devout".

 

The fact is my wife sees my conversation with Whitney as a violation of our agreement, in spirit at the least. That is evident by the fact that she said she  was upset with me for merely pointing out that antibiotics were made by man, not god. I was merely stating a fact. Neither Whitney nor my wife liked where my statement of fact could, but did not, lead. I did not want to argue that to my wife, though, because I knew where that would lead. By  my response to her I have already chosen not to discus religious matters with either Whitney or her mother. I can certainly live with that. I have decided to ask Whitney to come to me to discus any problem she has with me. I think she will honer my request. I hope I can get my wife's support for this. If not, I do indeed have a serious problem with both of them.   bill

 

Be just as loving as an agnostic/atheist to your family as your Christian wife is loving to your family, then nobody will be able to say, "See, unbelievers are grumpy people." :-) And your kindness will confuse the believers. :-)

 

After reading your quoted post here, I'd say that whole issue ought to be about as important as putting on a new roll of toilet paper "the right way." Very minor if I get it "wrong." And I don't feel like my opinion is being stifled because I don't care that much about the toilet paper roll.

 

An interesting exercise might be to observe your wife and make mental note of things she does your way because it's a big deal to you. Now and then my wife will say she knows I dont like X so she did Y instead. And there must be 51 years worth of agreements that are neither your way nor her way but something you both forged together.

 

Frankly, sir. with 51 years of marriage under your belt you should be giving US the marriage advice. :-) haha

[RipVanWinkle]

"After reading your quoted post here, I'd say that whole issue ought to be about as important as putting on a new roll of toilet paper 'the right way.' " midniterider

Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it. One thing, however, that keeps popping up. The above quote in bold letters is a thought that I know is well intended, but wrong. It truly is a more dangerous incident than it apparently appears on the surface.

I now know from this experience how true the old saying "you'd have to be there" is. Having been married as long as I have, I 

can recognize when my wife is truly upset. In her mind I think she felt like this was the straw that broke the camel's back---or nearly did. As I said, a Xtian spouse can be a time bomb. So I have to be very careful. Perhaps my description was not enough to give the right picture. Indeed, that's probably the problem.

 

On another note, if anyone wants marriage counseling, my rate is $100.00 per hour.        bill

[Darklady]

Why not just say what you want? Life os too short to play games like this.

[Akheia]

I'm sorry you're going through this conflict. And with someone who's supposed to have your back, too.. that makes it so much worse. I think it'd bug me a lot to be told I'm not allowed to discuss certain things with my own relatives. It's disrespectful and seems very controlling. I wonder.. does she hold to a Happy Christian Marriage illusion much? Like do you get the sense (as I am here) that she wants you to at least pretend that things are still just the way they used to be so she can feel a little more comfy?