xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Why is it so important for the christian right to claim artists as their own? It is just so lame. He might have dabbled, but to say that he was a christian is such a stretch. These people have no shame. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/januaryweb-only/001-22.0.html?start=1
mymistake Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Plenty of people tried Christianity for a while and found that it didn't take. There is no way a Christian would perform that song. That is a humanist message. That is seeking peace and harmony without Jesus. 4
duderonomy Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Why is it so important for the christian right to claim artists as their own? It is just so lame. He might have dabbled, but to say that he was a christian is such a stretch. These people have no shame. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/januaryweb-only/001-22.0.html?start=1 Xtify, If John Lennon only dabbled, he was no true Christian™, according to Bible standards. Is that what makes his experience a stretch?
Guest afireinside Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Tried to read this article but I had to subscribe to CT so I opted out. Had read this article before about 5 years ago and was only thinking about it a few days ago funnily enough and I think it said something like he went on to mock Jesus' crucifixion and basically had a typical Ex-C experience where he was bitter at Christianity. I don't see the relevance of the article, he was an open minded person who dabbled in a lot of mysticism so if he took a look at Christianity then big deal. Why did Oral Roberts share what he had written in a private letter? that's a bit arrogant.I think a lot of ministers enjoy name dropping to make themselves feel relevant with popular culture.
maxmaxmaxmax Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 I doubt he even dabbled. Too open-minded. But it's no real surprise to me that he at least thought about it. For someone so philosophically curious to not consider the dominant religion in the culture at that time would be really surprising. To be honest, I just think 'so what?', anyway. He went on to live a great life and contribute in an amazing way to art, pleasure and the liberation of the mind. He didn't get consumed by christianity, that's the main thing. And if he had, we would have heard about it. 1
Deva Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 His life is hardly a Christian role model - sex outside of marriage, cheating on his spouse and divorce, mistreating his son, Julian, and almost continually taking drugs of one kind or another. I'm not disparaging his talent, but these activities do not reflect any Christian values I have ever heard of. He may have briefly explored Christianity, as he did Hinduism and probably other mystical forms of religion, but I don't think he was a follower of anything. Its ironic to me how he was so condemned by Christians in the 60s and now with his death and the passage of a few decades, they want to claim him as their own. Time is strange.
Blood Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? 2
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again?
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 Why is it so important for the christian right to claim artists as their own? It is just so lame. He might have dabbled, but to say that he was a christian is such a stretch. These people have no shame. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/januaryweb-only/001-22.0.html?start=1 Xtify, If John Lennon only dabbled, he was no true Christian™, according to Bible standards. Is that what makes his experience a stretch? What makes it a stretch is that the christian right is attempting to say that it happened at all. The wonderful, peaceful influence that John Lennon had and still has on the world has NOTHING to do with christianity.
florduh Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 I don't know why they like to make these arguments as they prove nothing, even if true. Many people of all walks of life are inundated with Christian culture and many fall for it at some point. That adds nothing to the validity of the belief. If celebrity converts are the proof of the True Religion, we'd better take a closer look at Scientology; there must be something to it if half of Hollywood believes it, right?
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 I don't know why they like to make these arguments as they prove nothing, even if true. Many people of all walks of life are inundated with Christian culture and many fall for it at some point. That adds nothing to the validity of the belief. If celebrity converts are the proof of the True Religion, we'd better take a closer look at Scientology; there must be something to it if half of Hollywood believes it, right? Yeah, so true. It proves nothing, but they are so keen to do it. Scientology does have the same strategy. They make endless attempts to convert celebrities because it supposedly bolsters their validity. I've never seen them claim the dead as their loyal followers though.
mymistake Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? Christians make argument from authority into a way of life. They don't understand it is a fallacy. They embrace it. So they think having big names in the Christian fold proves Christianity is real. It's the way they have been trained to think. 1
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? Christians make argument from authority into a way of life. They don't understand it is a fallacy. They embrace it. So they think having big names in the Christian fold proves Christianity is real. It's the way they have been trained to think. That pretty much sums it up. I guess I am just shocked at the boldness of the christian right. They really are masters of spin. It seems they will never stop revising American history.
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? John did not write that. The Beatles are my religion (just look at my profile) and John hated christianity. If I had the time I could find a ton of quotes to confirm this, but you really just have to listen to his solo single "god", released in 1970, where he sings about all the things he doesn't believe in, and finishes with "I just believe in me". If he ever dabbled in or was curious about christianity, it would have been before the uproar of "We're bigger than jesus". That would have killed any curiosity he may have had about that religion, as he was very frustrated about how close minded America was about that statement. At the time of this supposed letter (1972) he also would not have quoted a song Paul wrote, as he was very critical of Paul after the Beatles broke up. Another example would be the lyrics to "How Do You Sleep?" In many ways I feel John was envious of Paul's commercial success, he once commented that no one will ever hear "I am the Walrus" played on a violin in a fancy restaurant, referring to how "Yesterday" is the most performed song in history. I would like to see that letter and have it compared to other letters of Johns to confirm he actually wrote it; but I highly doubt that will ever happen. This is a very dumb "lying for jesus" attempt, as everyone knows what John's thoughts of religion were, and they were not anywhere close to what was in that letter. Talk about blasphemy...
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? John did not write that. The Beatles are my religion (just look at my profile) and John hated christianity. If I had the time I could find a ton of quotes to confirm this, but you really just have to listen to his solo single "god", released in 1970, where he sings about all the things he doesn't believe in, and finishes with "I just believe in me". If he ever dabbled in or was curious about christianity, it would have been before the uproar of "We're bigger than jesus". That would have killed any curiosity he may have had about that religion, as he was very frustrated about how close minded America was about that statement. At the time of this supposed letter (1972) he also would not have quoted a song Paul wrote, as he was very critical of Paul after the Beatles broke up. Another example would be the lyrics to "How Do You Sleep?" In many ways I feel John was envious of Paul's commercial success, he once commented that no one will ever hear "I am the Walrus" played on a violin in a fancy restaurant, referring to how "Yesterday" is the most performed song in history. I would like to see that letter and have it compared to other letters of Johns to confirm he actually wrote it; but I highly doubt that will ever happen. Marty, I love The Beatles, too. It isn't just that they are trying to claim John as a celebrity spokesperson for their brand. They are actually trying to claim the song, "Imagine"!!! If you haven't already wasted time watching Ray Comfort's Genius, you might be shocked at his take on John Lennon's famous song. Quoted directly at 30:37: "An atheist once said that imagine is an anthem for atheism but think about it for a moment. If I said, "imagine there's no New York, its easy if you try," I'm saying that New York is a real place, but let's imagine or pretend that it isn't. So the song is actually acknowledging the existence of heaven and hell as real places."
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? John did not write that. The Beatles are my religion (just look at my profile) and John hated christianity. If I had the time I could find a ton of quotes to confirm this, but you really just have to listen to his solo single "god", released in 1970, where he sings about all the things he doesn't believe in, and finishes with "I just believe in me". If he ever dabbled in or was curious about christianity, it would have been before the uproar of "We're bigger than jesus". That would have killed any curiosity he may have had about that religion, as he was very frustrated about how close minded America was about that statement. At the time of this supposed letter (1972) he also would not have quoted a song Paul wrote, as he was very critical of Paul after the Beatles broke up. Another example would be the lyrics to "How Do You Sleep?" In many ways I feel John was envious of Paul's commercial success, he once commented that no one will ever hear "I am the Walrus" played on a violin in a fancy restaurant, referring to how "Yesterday" is the most performed song in history. I would like to see that letter and have it compared to other letters of Johns to confirm he actually wrote it; but I highly doubt that will ever happen. Marty, I love The Beatles, too. It isn't just that they are trying to claim John as a celebrity spokesperson for their brand. They are actually trying to claim the song, "Imagine"!!! If you haven't already wasted time watching Ray Comfort's Genius, you might be shocked at his take on John Lennon's famous song. Quoted directly at 30:37: "An atheist once said that imagine is an anthem for atheism but think about it for a moment. If I said, "imagine there's no New York, its easy if you try," I'm saying that New York is a real place, but let's imagine or pretend that it isn't. So the song is actually acknowledging the existence of heaven and hell as real places." Oh my Zeus I don't think I can watch that! That gets me really angry just reading it! christians are one of the lowest forms of people on the planet. The way they redefine the meanings of things to fit their worldview is so fucking frustrating!
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 ^^^It really makes me mad as well. When you are in a mood for kickboxing, spare yourself the first 30 minutes of crap and go right to 30:37. Comfort really makes me mad here especially when he says, "I hope some day you will join us."
Vigile Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Jeff Daumier was born again too. This means when believers die, they're going to a place where someone is going to serenade them with liberal music and values (JL) while JD eats their faces. Puts a new spin on the meaning of heaven.
Vigile Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 In 1972 he had written a desperate letter to Roberts confessing his dependence on drugs and his fear of facing up to "the problems of life." He expressed regret that he had said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and enclosed a gift for the Oral Roberts University. After quoting the line "money can't buy me love" from "Can't Buy Me Love" he said, "It's true. The point is this, I want happiness. I don't want to keep on with drugs. Paul told me once, 'You made fun of me for taking drugs, but you will regret it in the end.' Explain to me what Christianity can do for me. Is it phoney? Can He love me? I want out of hell." Is anybody here naive enough to think this really happened? That Lennon actually wrote a letter to Oral Roberts that sounds like it was written by a 13-year-old? This is exactly what I mean. The article, and others like it (for example: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/books/Carey_John_Lennon.aspx) are making statements about his loyalty to Jesus without evidence. They want to claim him for their side in the culture wars. This is one of their strategies: Einstein was a theist, Hawking was a theist, etc. I wonder how long it will take after Dawkins dies before they claim he was born again? John did not write that. The Beatles are my religion (just look at my profile) and John hated christianity. If I had the time I could find a ton of quotes to confirm this, but you really just have to listen to his solo single "god", released in 1970, where he sings about all the things he doesn't believe in, and finishes with "I just believe in me". If he ever dabbled in or was curious about christianity, it would have been before the uproar of "We're bigger than jesus". That would have killed any curiosity he may have had about that religion, as he was very frustrated about how close minded America was about that statement. At the time of this supposed letter (1972) he also would not have quoted a song Paul wrote, as he was very critical of Paul after the Beatles broke up. Another example would be the lyrics to "How Do You Sleep?" In many ways I feel John was envious of Paul's commercial success, he once commented that no one will ever hear "I am the Walrus" played on a violin in a fancy restaurant, referring to how "Yesterday" is the most performed song in history. I would like to see that letter and have it compared to other letters of Johns to confirm he actually wrote it; but I highly doubt that will ever happen. Marty, I love The Beatles, too. It isn't just that they are trying to claim John as a celebrity spokesperson for their brand. They are actually trying to claim the song, "Imagine"!!! If you haven't already wasted time watching Ray Comfort's Genius, you might be shocked at his take on John Lennon's famous song. Quoted directly at 30:37: "An atheist once said that imagine is an anthem for atheism but think about it for a moment. If I said, "imagine there's no New York, its easy if you try," I'm saying that New York is a real place, but let's imagine or pretend that it isn't. So the song is actually acknowledging the existence of heaven and hell as real places." Yeah, that's what you call cajones. Next, they'll claim the communist manifesto.
Fernweh Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Growing up in the 80's there was a huge movement within churches against secular music. Rock music was a big deal to the sin smiters at the time. John Lennon was held in as much contempt at the time as Mick Jagger and Motley Crue. I find it hard to believe Christians of today use John Lennon as an appeal to authority but I've seen it right here in the Lion's Den several times.
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Growing up in the 80's there was a huge movement within churches against secular music. Rock music was a big deal to the sin smiters at the time. John Lennon was held in as much contempt at the time as Mick Jagger and Motley Crue. I find it hard to believe Christians of today use John Lennon as an appeal to authority but I've seen it right here in the Lion's Den several times. It's like they really took the phrase "If you can't beat them, join them" to heart. I remember the "satanic 80's" very well, and it played a HUGE part in my deconversion at such a young age. A few years after I left, my old church formed a praise band and my mom tried to get me to play in it in an attempt to get back into church. But of course, when I went to that very same church/school, I was told rock and roll was evil, and that it was the drum beat that made you susceptible to possession. I guess when my entire generation stopped showing up for services, drum beats suddenly became pure and good and righteous...
Vigile Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Growing up in the 80's there was a huge movement within churches against secular music. Rock music was a big deal to the sin smiters at the time. John Lennon was held in as much contempt at the time as Mick Jagger and Motley Crue. I find it hard to believe Christians of today use John Lennon as an appeal to authority but I've seen it right here in the Lion's Den several times. I'm not surprised. A little time smooths over all inconsistencies. This is why it's a big deal that there is no contemporary record of Jesus. Whether he really existed or not is less of an issue than the fact that the first records of his existence happened more than a generation past his supposed life. A lot of folklore can develop over such a span of time. Heck, (and I hope I don't kill my point by getting too political here), just look at Reagan. He's considered a god to many today and when he was alive, he basically raped central and south America. 3
xtify Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 Maybe the christians just can't resist the appeal of "Imagine" any longer. They have to somehow mutate their typical rigid stance against the song into tolerance or acceptance. The song's lyrics are against religion and the concept of heaven and hell; but, the sound unites crowds of people and christians can feel that. Maybe christians can no longer deal with the dissonance, so their leaders are now telling them it's a christian song.
Ellinas Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Why is it so important for the christian right to claim artists as their own? It is just so lame. Simple. Because that way they think they will gain influence over the fans.
Blood Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 "Imagine" was a huge hit in the USA in 1971. That is what undoubtedly inspired Oral Roberts to make up this entire bullshit story in 1972. Just like the fall of the Temple completely inspired Mark to make up bullshit stories about the Son of God predicting the whole thing. Christians haven't changed in 2,000 years. Any lie is acceptable as long as it keeps the kool-aid flowing to the sheep. 1
Recommended Posts