onthefence00 Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 And I failed at being a Christian. I was never saved apparently, or else I would have stopped purposely sinning. That didn't happen. I live in fear every day knowing I'm going to be tortured for eternity. My family that has passed away weren't saved and worst of all I doubt my daughters going to be saved. Scares the living daylights out of me. How can I be a happy Christian knowing what's gonna happen to most people I love and know? I regret having my daughter because she may have to suffer for eternity and I wish I wasn't born to have to choose whether or not to be Christian. I already have failed either way because I don't love biblegod, I wanted to be a Christian out if fear and that is not good enough. I am litterally going to go mental over this. I need you guys to show me that Christianity is really a lie. Sorry this is my first post and I barely found this website about 2 weeks ago. I read through everything but I am still scared and I can't talk to anyone I know. If this needs to be moved hopefully a mod can move it for me thanks.
thereisnoperfect Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll get lots of support. For now, let me just offer this: IF there is a god, and IF that god judges (two big IFs right off the bat), then either that god judges with mercy and kindness, or not. If you're to be judged with mercy and kindness, like your grandmother would judge you, maybe, you'll be fine. If we're all the judged by a god who doesn't use mercy and kindness, then there's nothing we can do. Unkind and unmerciful judges will do whatever they want, and there's no way to anticipate their judgments. But you KNOW you have this life. Any other life is, at best, an unlikely scenario. Live this one the way you want to live it, the best you can--and let the rest take care of itself.
onthefence00 Posted April 6, 2014 Author Posted April 6, 2014 Thank you. I guess IF there is a God that's unkind I shouldn't live in fear for what I already think could happen. I guess I'm in transition mode, from religion ti no religion. I just hope the Christians aren't right and I'm hoping to feel secure enough to drop any religious beliefs for logical thinking.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 6, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 6, 2014 Okay, first of all *HUGS* Secondly take a few deep breaths. Thirdly, ask yourself if a loving god would create hell and send his children to be tormented there forever. Does that idea scan? Or is that idea simply a tool invented by the church to control the masses through fear? Which seems more likely: god creating us with free will and punishing us for using it, or people using a deep-seated fear to manipulate and control the people beneath them? Last but not least, there are several very good threads here that touch upon the concept of hell, Original Sin, and free will; I encourage you to read through them (many of them are right here in The Lion's Den). 4
Brother Jeff Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 There is no such thing as "saved" or "unsaved". Those are false distinctions made by a demonstrably false religion. There is no such thing as "sin". Sin is a religious concept with no demonstrable basis in reality. Religious fears can be very powerful, but in reality they are absolutely baseless. I wrote this months ago on the subject and I hope it helps: http://religionisbullshit.me/thinking-through-religious-fears/ Stick around here and you will get FREE, and believe me, that is a wonderful place to be! Glory! 1
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Welcome to ex-c! It can take some time for the fear to fade away. Read all you can, ask questions, and be gentle with yourself while you make this change in your outlook on life. You may find this video clip (and the whole channel) helpful: 3
mymistake Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Christianity uses emotional hooks so I have been fighting that with comedy. I've been mostly successful. This is one place with plenty of laughs about Christiainty: http://www.atheistmemebase.com/ I've found NonStampCollector and Darkmatter2525 to be very helpful in general. Here is something specifically about hell:
Guest afireinside Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Greetings onthefence00. Mate I feel for you, I spent the past year in the stage you are in and it's terrible. Each step you take is hindered by these fears and it's sometimes paralysing. I had to face this hell thing straight on. I started researching NDE's to get some understanding, I found that in most cases where someone has died and supposedly reaches an afterlife there is no hell, most non religious people talk of a feeling of peace and love and interestingly most often those who talk of a hell are fundamentalists which tells me a)it's the brain playing tricks or god is a reality completely separate from that described in the Bible. I then relaxed a bit and did some more research into the inconsistencies of the Bible and asked God if he was real to show me he is and not play games. I got no answers and heard no voice of assurance, the only voice I heard was my own voice of reason so I said I'm done!. Look at life soberly and think outside of a religious mindset and peace will come, we are here for you and know exactly how you are hurting. 1
MerryG Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 onthefence00 -- Welcome. And I hope you can relax and feel at ease here. Wherever you're going on your personal journey, people here will help you and not pressure you. The terrible state you're in makes me furious. Not at you, of course. But at any people anywhere who feel that "truth" needs to be sold using terror as its biggest selling point. I was like you. I never really loved god (how could one love such a monster?). I just wanted -- desperately! -- to believe so I wouldn't go to hell. But I couldn't believe. I couldn't love Jesus or god. So there I was, just where you are, sunk into horror at facing eternal punishment. And to think that millions -- millions! -- of children are raised in this kind of terror. And millions of those who try to escape are drawn back in by the sheer, absolute horror they're told awaits them merely for asking questions, merely for being unable to force themselves to believe what they don't believe and feel what they don't feel. Monstrous! I deconverted a long, long time ago. But the fear of hell stayed with me. (I didn't believe in hell, but there was always that "what if?") It stayed with me until I came here and saw how many other people -- like you, like a lot of the newbies who come here -- are held to this vicious religion by nothing except the foul, rotten bond that lifelong terror has created in their hearts and minds. Finally, when I saw all the emotional devastation, I was able to realize that hell was absolutely invented (no more "what if?") and is used entirely for humans to control other humans. When I saw the naked reality, I lost my fear and got very, very, very angry. I'm angry for your sake, for the sake of my long-ago child-self, for the sake of everyone who has to endure the grief and horror you're enduring right now. I hope you get past this ugly mind-control soon and are able to walk your own higher path. 3
Overcame Faith Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Hi, onthefence00, and welcome to ExC. See if this thread helps you any. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61554-there-is-no-justice-in-the-christian-concept-of-heaven-and-hell/#entry934808
sdelsolray Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 And I failed at being a Christian. I was never saved apparently, or else I would have stopped purposely sinning. That didn't happen. I live in fear every day knowing I'm going to be tortured for eternity. My family that has passed away weren't saved and worst of all I doubt my daughters going to be saved. Scares the living daylights out of me. How can I be a happy Christian knowing what's gonna happen to most people I love and know? I regret having my daughter because she may have to suffer for eternity and I wish I wasn't born to have to choose whether or not to be Christian. I already have failed either way because I don't love biblegod, I wanted to be a Christian out if fear and that is not good enough. I am litterally going to go mental over this. I need you guys to show me that Christianity is really a lie. Sorry this is my first post and I barely found this website about 2 weeks ago. I read through everything but I am still scared and I can't talk to anyone I know. If this needs to be moved hopefully a mod can move it for me thanks. The first step in overcoming religious indoctrination is to realize and acknowledge your were infected with religious indoctrination, probably as a child, and most likely from trusted adults. Relax. You'll be fine. Just take the time and invest the energy to use rational thinking to address your condition.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 6, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 6, 2014 There are two other thoughts I would encourage you to consider: 1. Look at your daughter. I mean really look at her in the eye. Now ask yourself if you could throw her into hell. I'm sure there have been times when you've felt like wringing her neck, but to condemn her to eternal conscious torment--could you do it? Now consider the words of jesus: "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" Matt. 7:11 God has the audacity to call you evil even though you are not capable of subjecting your child to the same eternal damnation that he is willing to condemn his children to. What kind of loving god would do such a thing? What sort of heavenly father is that? 2. I have a son who just recently turned 5. When we first moved to Georgia 3.5 years ago, we would allow our son to go visit my parents back home in North Carolina by himself. Two years ago, my wife and I decided that we would no longer send him up there without one of us there to look after him. This decision was necessary because every time we sent him up there alone, something disastrous would happen. He's been kicked by a donkey, placed into a bath that was much too hot for him (he's still terrified of having his hair washed), he's been allowed to wander into the upstairs of my dad's workshop without adult supervision, and I know on at least one occasion he was taken to church, despite me explicitly forbidding my parents from doing so. Why is my only begotten son handled in such a cavalier manner by my own parents? Because they have nine other grandchildren. To them, he is but one in a series and nothing more. They seem to have the mentality that with so many, they can afford to lose one or two. The problem is, he is my only son and I'm not likely to ever have another. I can't afford to lose him. Now consider that god has had billions of children over the years. Much like my fundie parents, he can afford to lose a few, even several billion. But I will bitch-slap the hell out of any god, angel, or devil that tries to tell me my son deserves to be cast into hell. Just because he, the loving heavenly father, is willing to write off entire generations of his children and damn them to eternal hell, doesn't mean my son deserves to be written off by such a diabolical and maniacal despot. To hell with such a god; and to hell with the manipulative, self-righteous hypocrites who spew such hateful vitriol as the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. I hope this helps. 2
milesaway Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Toward the end of my short tour with religion, I was afraid that maybe I wasn't trying hard enough, and leaving would have disastrous consequences. Those first couple weeks after I left the last church I went to, I thought I'd try another church after I spent some time debriefing from the shit storm I left. But I instead thought long and hard about it, and did some reading. I read these forums as a guest for awhile before I actually joined, and it all made sense. I would encourage you to do some reading. Read about the religions that predated christendom, you'll see a ton of similarities between the two. Do you think twice about any of those other religions? My guess is probably not. Read about the concept of hell, and you'll see that the concept is also nothing new, and it's not exclusive to christendom either. Ask yourself what kind of god that people say is all loving would create people just to throw them away, and demand praise using fear and control to get it? Is that a god that's worth your time to worship? Is it a god that deserves your worship? Knowledge is power. The more you learn, the less power this stuff will have over you, and the more anyone tries to badger you about it, the more they'll just look like the boy who cried wolf. 1
florduh Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Welcome to Ex-C. You've already been given some resources but let me add that not even all Christians believe in Hell. It's a rather recent doctrine and it is absent from the OT entirely.
midniterider Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 And I failed at being a Christian. I was never saved apparently, or else I would have stopped purposely sinning. That didn't happen. I live in fear every day knowing I'm going to be tortured for eternity. My family that has passed away weren't saved and worst of all I doubt my daughters going to be saved. Scares the living daylights out of me. How can I be a happy Christian knowing what's gonna happen to most people I love and know? I regret having my daughter because she may have to suffer for eternity and I wish I wasn't born to have to choose whether or not to be Christian. I already have failed either way because I don't love biblegod, I wanted to be a Christian out if fear and that is not good enough. I am litterally going to go mental over this. I need you guys to show me that Christianity is really a lie. Sorry this is my first post and I barely found this website about 2 weeks ago. I read through everything but I am still scared and I can't talk to anyone I know. If this needs to be moved hopefully a mod can move it for me thanks. If Jesus were real and loved us then why would he let you (or me) fail at being a Christian? If he's real, why doesn't he do something to help? If Jesus loved us then why would he send our loved ones to hell? Why is it that human beings treat each other better than Jesus (or old testament God) treats his 'children' ? Because Jesus and God and Satan and Hell are inventions by man designed to control people by fear. 1
RipVanWinkle Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 onthefence: I feel for you, truly. This site will help you if you read all available to you and do your own private research into the history of Xtianity and critical research on the origin of the bible. I want to start with just one reason that I cannot believe in Xtianity: Ironically, it was touched on by your OP. I refuse to believe in a god who is so unmercifully cruel and vindictive that he would condemn to eternal torture my children and grandchildren or anybody's children and grandchildren for that matter simply because of what they honestly believe or don't believe. I love my children with all my heart and at least as much do I love my grandchildren. Any so called god who would torture children or adults for eternity is not a god I will worship or follow. Just think for a moment. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. If the New Testament plan is true, god, knowing what will happen in the future, created people, knowing they would fail to meet his standards, but nevertheless had a deliberate plan to condemn the vast majority of them to an eternal lake of fire because they didn't believe that in an age of rampant superstition god caused his own son to die an excruciating death from which he arose in three days, an event we all know to be impossible according to natural law. God did this while remaining invisible and silent for 2000 plus years. We have only those privileged few who claim to have communicating with god, but there are over 40,000 different versions of what god wants from us. And those who speak for him (most of them) make money (some, a lot of money) off of our belief. The history of Xtianity is one of gruesome bloodshed and cruelty inflicted by the faithful on Jews, nonbelievers, witches, backsliders and others. These acts were done by Catholics as well as Protestants. The details of these cruelties are eye openers, indeed. That's a quick summary. There is much more to learn by real history, as opposed to that made up by churches. The more you learn the less you will fear hell of god. What you get in return is freedom of thought. There is no tithe and no monetary profit motive. You are welcome here and if you have questions, which you will, contact any one of us. bill
Woodsy Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 Welcome! Going through your deconversion can feel like hell.....I know. But hang in there and hang with us here (as Redneck Professor would say). You are in a safe place and the people here are the most compassionate and wise people I know. Another friend on here said, "you are home." Indeed you are. Be kind to yourself and vent all you want. You are not alone. I wish you peace.
older Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 OTF00:Your stress is quite normal and the beginning of a process through which you will pass. You might not see that now, but trust us. The fact that you posted here is evidence that you have the strength to deal with this. As I read what you have written, you are upset about failures as seen though the lens of Christianity. One of the faults of both our culture and Christianity is that they disparage failure and praise success without leaving room for those inevitable failures. And while we hear from various inventors and philosophers about the value of failures, we are still taught that failure is bad. Our rational minds know that failure is a step toward finding what is correct, but our emotional minds have been programmed to react negatively to such failure.Here is something you might try. Make a list of your successes. You have many. Your strength in posting here is one success. Write down as many successes as you can think of. Make no exceptions or qualitative judgments at this point. You succeeded in learning to read and write. You succeeded in producing your beautiful daughter. You succeeded in becoming a graphic designer and some of those works are terrific. Challenge yourself to make as long a list as you can, with successes both big and small.Then, at the end of the day, write down one thing from that day that was a success. Do this every day for a week. At the end of the week, take a look at what you have accomplished.You wrote, “I need you guys to show me that Christianity is really a lie.” While we can show you, you will still need to find out for yourself. Start by asking, “Where is the evidence?” Don’t look to Christianity for the answer. That’s circular reasoning, and Christians have spent much time and energy cooking up logically fallacious ways to rationalize their belief. Look to the real world for tangible, independently verifiable evidence.Ask yourself this question: What makes you think that you are going to Hell? Could the answer be that other people have convinced you that this will happen? How do they know? What’s their authority? Can you find any evidence that claims of Hell are true? Why are we afraid of something called Hell when the only evidence for it is what other people say?Is it based on faith? Where does “faith” come from? Fear? Many people are afraid of the dark. But what is there out there after the sun goes down that isn’t out there when the sun is up? It’s all the same stuff. As Franklin D. Roosevelt said, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”Stay with us and let us know how it goes.
Aggie Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 Onthefence00, One thing that helps me most is realizing that there are a great variety of religions that have hells (Islam, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, Tartarus in Roman religion, etc.). Many, many Christians have condemned each other to hell for mutually exclusive reasons (various sects in early Christianity, Roman Catholic, various Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox to name a very few). Most Protestants denied the existence of Purgatory in the Reformation-- people had lived in great fear of that non-existent place for centuries (and many still do). The Catholic Church has recently decided that maybe Limbo doesn't exist after all. I just give these as examples of where people have feared spiritual realms that have later been deemed to be imaginary. My advice is to grab your courage and fight those who try to take it from you. Being honest is a triumph of the human spirit. There is no "safe" metaphysical position where you won't be under the condemnation of millions. Millions of people have feared hells that you know nothing about or cause you no concern. Hang in there! It gets better. 1
ironhorse Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Thank you. I guess IF there is a God that's unkind I shouldn't live in fear for what I already think could happen. I guess I'm in transition mode, from religion ti no religion. I just hope the Christians aren't right and I'm hoping to feel secure enough to drop any religious beliefs for logical thinking. I don't view God as unkind. It is a good idea to drop your religious beliefs you have been taught. And think for yourself.
Deidre Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Brother Jeff's reply in post #5 is so well said. I tried to quote it here, must be something wrong with my laptop. I think that's spot on, though. Christianity teaches that we are all unworthy of heaven, and that we should be walking around in shame 24/7, hoping and 'praying' for a Savior to rescue us from ourselves. To keep us from further sinning. Oh but wait, we inherited original sin, didn't we? We're screwed anyway you slice it, I guess. lol OP, my advice to you is to buy a secular book that sort of sheds light on the lies of Christianity, that you can read at your leisure. You will not abandon Christianity over night, and maybe you never will. But, to me, it's not a religion worth clinging to because it fosters shame and is predicated upon fear. If a god exists, why do we suppose he is a god that wishes for us all to hang our heads in shame day after day? If a god exists, why do we presume that he created a place for everlasting reward (heaven) and everlasting doom (hell)? It stands to reason that Christianity was yet another attempt by man to control the masses by creating a god who smites everyone, if they don't follow a particular set of rules and regulations of the Christian 'church.' I hope you find some peace. 1
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Thank you. I guess IF there is a God that's unkind I shouldn't live in fear for what I already think could happen. I guess I'm in transition mode, from religion ti no religion. I just hope the Christians aren't right and I'm hoping to feel secure enough to drop any religious beliefs for logical thinking. I don't view God as unkind. It is a good idea to drop your religious beliefs you have been taught. And think for yourself. Onthefence00, just a heads up that sometimes christians post in the Lion's Den. Ironhorse thinks that being a liberal christian allows a person to cherry pick those parts of the bible they agree with or find more palatable than other parts. It's not really "thinking for yourself" is it. I'm pretty sure Ironhorse believes that the medieval man made myth of hell is real and that unbelievers are going there. Just thought you should know that about him.
Jedah Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 If you are afraid of going to hell, then you are in luck! It doesn't exist. 1
Roz Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Agreed, ironhorse will dismiss: slavery child rape infant afterbirth abortion child murder violations of women to look for signs of virginity genocide And instead choose to live in those verses that speak 'god is love.' If you want to read the bible, read it in its entirety, without god glasses on. Then you will have the courage to stand up and live life to its fullest! 1
ironhorse Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Brother Jeff's reply in post #5 is so well said. I tried to quote it here, must be something wrong with my laptop. I think that's spot on, though. Christianity teaches that we are all unworthy of heaven, and that we should be walking around in shame 24/7, hoping and 'praying' for a Savior to rescue us from ourselves. To keep us from further sinning. Oh but wait, we inherited original sin, didn't we? We're screwed anyway you slice it, I guess. lol OP, my advice to you is to buy a secular book that sort of sheds light on the lies of Christianity, that you can read at your leisure. You will not abandon Christianity over night, and maybe you never will. But, to me, it's not a religion worth clinging to because it fosters shame and is predicated upon fear. If a god exists, why do we suppose he is a god that wishes for us all to hang our heads in shame day after day? If a god exists, why do we presume that he created a place for everlasting reward (heaven) and everlasting doom (hell)? It stands to reason that Christianity was yet another attempt by man to control the masses by creating a god who smites everyone, if they don't follow a particular set of rules and regulations of the Christian 'church.' I hope you find some peace. I agree with Deidre32 on this: "OP, my advice to you is to buy a secular book that sort of sheds light on the lies of Christianity, that you can read at your leisure." Read any book you like but don't restrict your search to only anti-Christian books.
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