Forgiveness In The Bible

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Is forgiveness mentioned in the old testament?

 

Does the new testament contradict itself on forgiveness?

 

I think forgiveness is a generic human concept that was co-opted for the bible for some religious purpose.  I don't know what that purpose is.  Any ideas?

[Guest afireinside]

The most obvious example of forgiveness in the OT that I can think of is Joseph forgiving his brothers. I don't know if it explicitly says he forgave them.

[Guest afireinside]

I suppose Job forgave God for fucking him over a few times- " my redeemer lives!" but all my loved ones are dead. Was the mercy shown to Ninevah forgiveness, I can't think of many examples of forgiveness from God

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Thanks, afireinside.  I guess the OT god could show or not show mercy, and that was part of his mindfuck MO.  Why did Jesus tell his followers to forgive others?  Was it just a necessary precondition to the salvation story, or did it have some wider purpose?

[Guest afireinside]

Is remission of sins the same as forgiveness?

 

We're sin offerings a means of obtaining forgiveness or was it just a payoff to stop the vengeance of God?

[RipVanWinkle]

"We're sin offerings a means of obtaining forgiveness or was it just a payoff to stop the vengeance of God?" afireinside

 

My understanding has always been that offerings  (If this means sacrifice) was for forgiveness of sins. 

 

The OT laws were acknowledged as being valid by jesus. I would consider those laws to be a contradiction of the doctrine of forgiveness. Do you? So. if the "law" is still valid "until all is fulfilled" , the NT contradicts itself once again. 

As to its purpose I can only hazard a guess: Forgiveness is the ideal in many situations because to not do so can fester and cause the victim further harm. But the vindictive authors of the NT knew that no one could actually forgive every wrong done to him/her

every time, so it would be a great continuous cause of guilt by Xtians who, despite all efforts, could not comply. Guilt is a major 

weapon of Xtianity. Or it is always possible that the authors of the NT didn't did't think it through. But I bet on the former.  bill

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[Blood]

That was the purpose of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus. The priest magically transferred the community's sins to a goat who was led out into the wilderness to starve. It was an old symbolic ritual probably practiced by a lot of cultures. 

[Guest afireinside]

<p><p>

"We're sin offerings a means of obtaining forgiveness or was it just a payoff to stop the vengeance of God?" afireinside

My understanding has always been that offerings (If this means sacrifice) was for forgiveness of sins.

The OT laws were acknowledged as being valid by jesus. I would consider those laws to be a contradiction of the doctrine of forgiveness. Do you? So. if the "law" is still valid "until all is fulfilled" , the NT contradicts itself once again.

As to its purpose I can only hazard a guess: Forgiveness is the ideal in many situations because to not do so can fester and cause the victim further harm. But the vindictive authors of the NT knew that no one could actually forgive every wrong done to him/her

every time, so it would be a great continuous cause of guilt by Xtians who, despite all efforts, could not comply. Guilt is a major

weapon of Xtianity. Or it is always possible that the authors of the NT didn't did't think it through. But I bet on the former. bill

 

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If you get badly hurt by someone you have to deal with and process what was done to you and that is hard enough in itself. Add to that the threat that if we don't forgive others God won't forgive us and you have a cocktail of guilt. We MUST forgive the unrepentant culprit even though they don't care what they did to US or God won't forgive YOU for not forgiving! Isn't that a double standard?

[centauri]

Is forgiveness mentioned in the old testament?

 

Does the new testament contradict itself on forgiveness?

 

I think forgiveness is a generic human concept that was co-opted for the bible for some religious purpose.  I don't know what that purpose is.  Any ideas?

Forgiveness is mentioned many times in the Old Testament.

Unintentional sins often involved the sin sacrifice (Lev 4).

 

Lev 4:13-14,20

And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

 

Other sins can be forgiven by repenting and keeping the law (Ezek 18:20-27).

 

Ezek 18:21-22

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

The Day of Atonement (Lev 16) also resulted in the atonement of sins.

 

Lev 16:34(GWT)

“This permanent law tells you how to make peace with the Lord once a year for all the sins the Israelites committed.”

 

There isn't any need for Jesus.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Is forgiveness mentioned in the old testament?

 

Does the new testament contradict itself on forgiveness?

 

I think forgiveness is a generic human concept that was co-opted for the bible for some religious purpose.  I don't know what that purpose is.  Any ideas?

Forgiveness is mentioned many times in the Old Testament.

Unintentional sins often involved the sin sacrifice (Lev 4).

 

Lev 4:13-14,20

And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

 

Other sins can be forgiven by repenting and keeping the law (Ezek 18:20-27).

 

Ezek 18:21-22

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

The Day of Atonement (Lev 16) also resulted in the atonement of sins.

 

Lev 16:34(GWT)

“This permanent law tells you how to make peace with the Lord once a year for all the sins the Israelites committed.”

 

There isn't any need for Jesus.

 

Thanks, I should have defined my terms - I was meaning are there any instructions to forgive other people in the OT.

[pratt]

i think in numbers or lev or deu where you borrow money, n in jubilee years write off debts

[srd44]

Timely! Just posted a rather lengthy discussion of this, especially focusing on OT and NT differences here http://contradictionsinthebible.com/all-sins-can-be-atoned-or-only-inadvertent-sins/

[miekko]

Consider verses like 1 Ki 8:50 "And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:"

 

Also, think of Lev 19:17-18 : Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

 

There's more along the same lines, but I don't recall where it would pay off to start looking for it.

[Roz]

If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct, but those 2 passages might be limited to "fellow Israelites."  Like Lev. 25 44-46, there's a clear distinction in how an Israelite was supposed to treat fellow citizens and how he was supposed to treat non-Jews. 

 

"Thy neighbor..."  I'm in the camp that "neighbor" only means "thy fellow Jew."  Again, if it's wrong, please correct.

[Guest afireinside]

While Israel was forming this moral framework in books like Leviticus, were countries like China comparatively parallel in their morality? Are there any ancient Chinese books for example on morality preceding the Jewish texts? I just find the idea that God only cared about revealing his truth to one race, at one time and disregarding so many others who were disconnected to the Middle East quite incredible. I wish I had studied this type of thing when I was young, now I'm playing catch up.

[srd44]

While Israel was forming this moral framework in books like Leviticus, were countries like China comparatively parallel in their morality? Are there any ancient Chinese books for example on morality preceding the Jewish texts? I just find the idea that God only cared about revealing his truth to one race, at one time and disregarding so many others who were disconnected to the Middle East quite incredible. I wish I had studied this type of thing when I was young, now I'm playing catch up.

Amen brother.

 

And similarly, why is it that all superheros are Americans? I mean geez, it's like the only people worht saving, worht these superheroes time, is us Americans. God, country, and superheroes!  Although in a tough situation needing to be saved, I'd put my money on Ironman before Jesus.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

So, did the concept of forgiveness between humans find its way into the bible because it was a sort of moral framework for a community to get along with each other well?

 

When contemporary xians insist on "forgiving" heinous crimes because the bible tells them to, are they being moral or amoral? 

 

Forgiveness doesn't always make things better, very often it can make things worse, like for example a battered wife forgiving her husband and staying with him, where she can get beaten again and again.  Surely the right thing for her to do is leave?

[miekko]

If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct, but those 2 passages might be limited to "fellow Israelites."  Like Lev. 25 44-46, there's a clear distinction in how an Israelite was supposed to treat fellow citizens and how he was supposed to treat non-Jews. 

 

"Thy neighbor..."  I'm in the camp that "neighbor" only means "thy fellow Jew."  Again, if it's wrong, please correct.

Yes, but it's a start

[Roz]

Yeah, I was just thinking why didn't I see it before.

 

The evolution of "forgiveness" in the bible, I mean.  If I only tried to see the OT concept of forgiveness and then try and compare that with the notion of "unchanging" god, I would've gotten out of Christianity sooner.